Technics TT

[bobrex]

bobrex, I for one would love to hear your POV on SL1200....   I think we are currently Technics free zone now that chairguy has sold his. I have a Q2 only until I can get a Project or Rega, (or build one???) but I freely admit the SL-Q2 is nothing more than a vintage midfi spinner that I got for free.

Oh man... where do I start?  Let's keep this simple... I have a problem with Technics as a company, how it chose to sell its products, and how it subsequently supported the product.  I have history with this going back into the mid-70s.

As far as the 1200 itself, I get frustrated with the people who (much like the Bose crowd) believe the 1200 to be the BEST turntable out there.  Not the best at the price, not the best under a price, but THE BEST!!!!!  Few of these people have any true experience with better tables, many of them are spec driven, many of them hook the tables up to 70's vintage receivers, and they get incredibly defensive when you point out problems.  Like the Bose cult, nothing else beats it (ironically KAB was able to "improve" the table - but that's OK) and spending any more money for a table is foolish.  These people are "wise" while the rest of us are fools.

Or maybe I'm just fed up with the mindset on a couple of forums - the Hoffman site being the prime example.

[richidoo]

I'm with you Bob. That is a perfect post for this thread, and very valuable to me. I still think of Technics as stuff you buy for $129 in Lechmere, a first class department store in Dedham, MA. Not something sold in TechHifi down the road. When I started reading about the KAB mods and the 1200 reviews out there of course I was intrigued, but since then thanks to Carlman, Chairguy, even Wayner who still likes his after serious mods and heroic experimenting, I have decided against that route. Your opinion further adds to my decision. Thanks!!!!
Rich

[thechairguy]

I'm with you Bob. That is a perfect post for this thread, and very valuable to me. I still think of Technics as stuff you buy for $129 in Lechmere, a first class department store in Dedham, MA. Not something sold in TechHifi down the road. When I started reading about the KAB mods and the 1200 reviews out there of course I was intrigued, but since then thanks to Carlman, Chairguy, even Wayner who still likes his after serious mods and heroic experimenting, I have decided against that route. Your opinion further adds to my decision. Thanks!!!!
Rich

Rich et al, I still have my SL-1200....I just found no matter what was tried it was inferior to my (similar vintage) JVC QL-F6 table (also DD, also a Matsushita division, btw).  It's internally damped tonearm and much heavier and oversized platter are two reasons I know of why it's better.....one other is, I think, my Technics led a harder life before my ownership (it looks it, at least).

What else after that I'm not sure.  I could go another $300 for KAB's outboard power supply and strobe disabler or move on to something else that needs-a-fixin'.   

Mind you, I changed the arm out and had a $3K Origin Live Illustrious Mk. III on it .  Overall, compared with the same arm and cartridge, I still rate is slightly higher than my VPI HW-19 MK. III that goes for a bunch more (my much used/abused SL-1200 was less than $150, with damaged arm, on ebay),  The HW-19, sans arm, goes for about $600 on Audiogon these days.

Without tightly regulated speed control, even with a 12 lb platter for flywheel effect, a belt drive table cannot compete.  CD spoiled me/us forever for speed consistency....I can't go back to cassette deck like speed control.  But, it's another $750-1000 to add it to the VPI. 

That's more than I spent on everything, including Grado cartridge, for the JVC (butcher block, brass toes, plast-i-clay, Herbie's mat, constrained layer damping mat, TI Shield, constrained layer damping bottom).  So, utter frugality and currently pure sonic pleasure is keeping from experimenting further with the VPI.

btw, mine's not even the best deck JVC made...one on A'gon now is:  http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1211852785

He's about $100 high on the price based on ebay sales...but that one is the pinnacle of JVC achievement in direct drive (heavy, oversized platter, electronic Q-damped arm, 10" long tonearm, swappable straight and S arms, and more)...made in 1985.  If you want a great table at an affordable price, that's one to truly look at.  Oh yeah, fully auto too...making vinyl a lot less painful.

The more isolation and damping I add to the JVC, the better it gets.  I made a constrained layer damping sub-platter for it, a TI Shield covering the platter surface (reducing interaction of stray EM fields from motor below to cartridge above) and constrained layer damping on the back and bottom of the unit lately.  The effects have been truly excellent.

If I wasn't so glutton to experience mo' betta', I'd stop right there.  But, I'm an audiophool arseho' 

As for PS Audio, I'm not totally slagging the company...only that my experience with 6 items from them has been poorly received.  Somewhere out there, they must make something of high value (I like their damn hyperbole and costing on their PC-OCC cables out now...there I go again...glutton)

John

[richidoo]

Thanks John! ALways a fun read, your posts. I saw your SL1200 ad and figured since I was so close to buying it, that someone else wiser than me must have eventually grabbed it...

That JVC looks good! I'm looking at that, thanks for the tip.

What is a TI shield for the platter? Is that the pad Wayner sells? Where to buy, or how to make?
Thanks
Rich

[thechairguy]

Rich - keep in mind my SL-1200 led a particularly abused life.  The Technics decks are very hardy (unless they are thrown out of a 2 story or higher window, they survive, but don't look pretty).  Mine works fine..looks ugly....but the JVC sounds better, still.

Then again, after a period of time the motors begin to vibrate in the Technics and KAB's outboard supply fixes that issue entirely.  For $300 I might try it and see if it improves drastically.  I'd feel better selling it to someone with that fixed in it's entirely. 

Most of the criticism of that deck comes from it's arm....but I entirely replaced it with a $3K tonearm and still the JVC outclassed it.  However, a vibrating motor can cause havoc on vinyl playback...so I don't know IF that is an issue (or if it is an issue at all even if bone stock) or not right now 

Nonetheless, I've babied it to health by restoring the motor bearing with Tufoil and setting it up carefully on more compliant squishy puds for feedback rejection. Also, all the switches were cleaned (they were de-gunked and the platter lifted, and cleaned underneath - dust and dirt had migrated there)

TI Shield (http://www.cladit.com/examples/emi-rfi-shielding.html) attenuates EMI better than anything else on the market.  I bought a $30 piece from Michael Percy Audio and cut my own 12" round for the platter (under the subplatter of Isodamp constrained layer damping)

It just so happened, without collusion with Wayner, that I was doing the same thing as him at the same time with his stainless steel shield.  His looks nicer and was a little cheaper than mine...but the TI Shield is fully effective across the entire frequency spectrum while the stainless steel is limited (as is traditional copper, steel, aluminum or other attempts at shielding).

[richidoo]

Good stuff. I just made an offer on that JVC... thanks bud! With the Quads efficiency down at 79dB, I can't hear any hum or racket from my SL-Q2/Bellari combo anymore so I've been listening to a lot of Lps lately, it's nice. Lots of Trane... 

You've really been around the block with that Technics. Sounds like fun. That clad-it stuff looks very cool. I can envision a few other uses for it.

Does the Y66 have VTA adjustment? That's the only thing I am not sure of, and one of the reasons I was attracted to the 1200. I guess every arm has "VTA adjustment" using a shim between plinth, but easier is better. Good sound is better still. I am hoping I will not become a crazy TT maniac like you , but the tendency is latent. I do look forward to seeing what is possible with modest investment. My only really good experience hearing high end TT was pretty darn good, VPI HRX/Steelhead.
Thanks John
Rich

[thechairguy]

Rich - good idea on splitting out thread...sorry for the wandering, bud 

Yeah, the Y66 has VTA adjustment.....my de-armed SL-1200 does not (when you remove the tonearm assembly and insert the Origin Live sleeve, you lose the VTA adjustment that comes with the stock Technics)

I tell you what, honestly, among all the parameters of getting vinyl right.....VTA adjustment ranks fairly low on the scale of things for me.  It is not un-important, but it's importance for most cartridges has been blown far out of proportion by vinyl addicts on the web.

Again, everything is important with vinyl (damn tweeky, sub-hobby form of audiophool'ism!!) ...but VTA is among the bottom 1/3 of stuff to get right.

Nonetheless, the Y66F does have it (99% certain, at least): http://www.vinylengine.com/library/jvc/ql-y66f.shtml

I'm also near sure this was the finest JVC deck created (at least available to us in No. America) and given the goodness of my lesser JVC QL-F6, probably a stinking killer table for well under $500.  Vintage decks do bring with them vintage problems of course (in regards to reliability, etc) so be forewarned of that 

Ciao, John

[richidoo]

Good to know about the VTA, I have read people say to adjust it every 6 months even without a cart change to account for stylus suspension sag. I dunno about that. Thanks for the link to the docs. I am very blessed to have two good techie friends here in Raleigh, one is a pro analog tech for many years, sells SOTA, the other is electronics wiz who loves to fix and update old gear for fun. I have been known to disassemble perfectly good electronics too, but with randomly varying results.

TT is sold....     I wish they would mark it as such.

But I will look casually for another. Thanks John.

[bobrex]

Rich - good idea on splitting out thread...sorry for the wandering, bud 

Yeah, the Y66 has VTA adjustment.....my de-armed SL-1200 does not (when you remove the tonearm assembly and insert the Origin Live sleeve, you lose the VTA adjustment that comes with the stock Technics)

I tell you what, honestly, among all the parameters of getting vinyl right.....VTA adjustment ranks fairly low on the scale of things for me.  It is not un-important, but it's importance for most cartridges has been blown far out of proportion by vinyl addicts on the web.

Again, everything is important with vinyl (damn tweeky, sub-hobby form of audiophool'ism!!) ...but VTA is among the bottom 1/3 of stuff to get right.

Well, VTA's importance is highly dependent upon the cartidge/stylus used.  Install a Van Den Hul Frog, or anything else using a line contact tip, and you may suddenly find VTA to be important.  Without VTA adjustments, Deutsche Grammophones will sound incredibly shrill relative to Deccas.  As is usually the case, the whole argument is based upon context.  You are correct - with a Grado, Shure, or even a Denon 103 VTA is less than critical - elipitical tips make this easier, but when you go beyond these cartridges you will understand the value of VTA adjustment.

[thechairguy]

Bob,

I have ellipticals, line styli, micro-ridges, stereohedron and shibata's among my cartridges.....VTA matters on all, and yes, on the finer styli it matters more.

But, FAR FAR more important on all of them is a piece of the set-up geometry rarely talked about....azimuth.  So that the stylus sits flat in the grooves.  The cantilever is never perfectly straight, nor the sylus tip, so having an adjustable 'yaw' in a headshell is a very helpful thing. 

Fixed headshells have advantages...but their lack of azimuth adjustment is not helpful for dialing it in....again, a FAR, FAR more important parameter to concern oneself with than the mush more talked about VTA. It is night and day difference with the finer styli.

I find most AT's to have to much treble emphasis overall for my taste....those with Microline styli 'crisper' still.  But jiggling with the azimuth (VTA doesn't affect this much at all) you can get it acceptably playing with tamer treble.  Fixed headshells need not apply 

Further, bubble leveling the entire (belt drive table, especially the suspended ones) deck at the platter is a more important parameter than VTA - greatly affecting it's speed functioning.  But, that's rarely talked about, either.

John

[bobrex]

John,

I want to keep this discussion going, if nothing else, it may help analog beginners understand the fine tuning of a system.

I agree that the first truly critical step is to level the table.  I wish all tables had the ability.  If you can't level the table you might as well just give up and stick woth CD.  Once the table is levelled, then you can set the alignment in the headshell, setting tracking force and anti-skate after that.

I agree that azimuth is important, but think of the following:
1) According to the "experts" (Paul Seydor, John Ellison) if your cartridge cost over a hundred bucks and needs azimuth adjustment, then the cartridge is defective.  This is bullshit, but the point needs to be discussed. 
2) Most people don't have the tools or the proper understanding to correctly adjust azimuth.  The goal of azimuth adjustment is to reduce inter-channel crosstalk.  This requires a test record and multi-meter.  The often suggested alternative (nulling of inverse signals) is only an approximation and may actually be incorrect relative to the measurement method.
3) Most "modern" gimballed arms (not counting unipivots for the time being) don't have adjustable azimuth without shimming either the cartridge or the mounting plate.  Twisting the headshell is a crap shoot, esp. when using the traditional single pin bayonnet mount.  I've done it over the years and I've seen many users screw it up.  Sumiko (and others) did make a headshell that allowed for azimuth adjustment, but these are few and far between.
4) I'm confused how you could have alleviated the brightness of an AT cart by adjusting azimuth.  Azimuth has a minimal effect on tone, it usually improves imaging and soundstage unless something is mis-tracking.

Now on to VTA.  My reasoning for placing VTA above azimuth is because every record may require a different VTA setting.  Again, most arms make adjusting this anywhere between difficult and impossible, but for those willing to go through the exercise, the tonal and soundstage improvements can be substantial.  Since you can adjust VTA without tools, anyone that can move their tone-arm pillar can do this, unlike azimuth with does require tools.

Ideally you want to tweak both, as well as polarity (assuming you speakers can tell the difference) for perfect playback.  But things are rarely that ideal.

[thechairguy]

Yeah, maybe this topic better in analog...up to you Rich/Carl.

When I dial in azimuth/yaw right, it reduces stridency or etching that rides along with naturally treble-heavy cartridges like AT.  That's probably mis-tracking is what it corrects, actually, now that you mention it 

The removable headshell mounts have a bit of leeway on them as there is usually/often a rubber grommet on the headshell itself to contend with...depending on how much you twist and lock the headshell in place will change azimuth.

I use a mirror (from Thorens long ago) that is approximately the width of the record itself and you can see how flat the cartridge body is to the record this way.  It doesn't always work (maybe defective, maybe John Ellison is right after all, but it happens over time, too), so jiggling the mount to seat the stylus tip right is often a bit helpful after.

Is there is any doubt why folks were so happy to ditch their tables with CD in the 80's - this tweeky discussion about analog sure answered it 

It's too bad, as it is so satisfying for those that dial 90% of it all in right (you need not get 100% for it to sound more like music than CD....it has better resolution to start with) 

John

John