Author Topic: KAB 1200 TT  (Read 20526 times)

Offline rollo

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KAB 1200 TT
« on: December 25, 2007, 09:48:20 AM »
  Have been a lot of good things about this table and arm combo. KABUSA modifies a Technique 1210Mk5SE which has been quite popular over in the UK. Check it out. www.kabusa.com.
      What do you think. Makes sense to me.

rollo
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Offline Carlman

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Re: KAB 1200 TT
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2007, 07:36:23 AM »
I read John Casler's comments over on AC and he seems pretty pleased with it... but not blown out of the water either... which may just be what I'm reading into it.. because that's how I'd feel about a near 1,k Technics DJ table.  Why wouldn't you just buy a Music Hall 7 or something designed for hifi for about the same price or less? 
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline richidoo

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Re: KAB 1200 TT
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2007, 11:26:32 AM »
Sensible Sound magazine reviewed it last summer, very favorably.

There is a thread going on about it over on AC. Wayner and TCG just got them. I intend to buy one if/ever get back into vinyl, which I am avoiding as much as possible.... hhehe

It was designed to be a serious hifi TT, and kept alive by DJs when lesser value brands sank. DJs benefitted from the engineering intended for hifi use. Build quality, speed precision, vibration damping, excellent fully adjustable arm, price. $500 will get you a good new one.


LKdog

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Re: KAB 1200 TT
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2007, 09:47:50 PM »
The debate about this TT for use in an audiophile system has been ongoing for several years.
Lots of threads on AA,AG,AC, etc.

Not going to ignite a debate here, but quite a few people that have the KAB table feel it is as good or even quite a bit better performing than any comparably priced Music Hall or Rega and well beyond.

I stumbled upon one used a couple years ago and picked it up. I am a casual vinyl person, but did listen to the usual suspects from Music Hall and Rega at dealers at the time.

All I will say is it sounds very good and I have no interest in upgrading. I use a Dyna 10X5 with it. Have no idea how it compares to other tables, but I do know what sounds good to me and have a decent system with a very good digital source. It fits right in. 

The KAB website has an interesting take on why it is so reasonably priced stock as well as lots of other info.
Here is link :

http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?index.htm



Offline rollo

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Re: KAB 1200 TT
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2007, 02:59:10 PM »
Thanks guys helpfull info. guess the only way to tell is to compare to My existing TT. Let you know if it happens. I'll check out the review richadoo.


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thechairguy

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Re: KAB 1200 TT
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2007, 10:31:33 PM »
Yep, I bought a junker Technics....but it had a shot arm so it was replaced by a (re-wired, new stub and counterweight) Rega 250/Origin Live armboard....so I cannot really comment on the stock table.  Most of the criticism leveled at the table is about the factory arm.

It's a fine table.....I'm not sure what more I should be looking for any better except for perfect cartridge /arm resonant matching. 

I now own 2 direct drives (the Technics with a Rega arm, and a JVC with captive factory arm....both use Matsushita DC Servo/Quart Lock), a VPI HW-19 MK. III belt drive and a circa-1975 DUAL 1229 Rim/Idler Drive (I haven't toyed with this yet).  I never thought this insanity would morph into 4 tables  :shock:

The Technics sounds 'unflappable', the JVC matches best with all cartridges (as it has built in vertical and horizontal damping) tho has the smallest soundstage, the VPI has the largest 'soundstage' and is overall quietest (but sounds a little 'brittle' - which I take to have some speed regulation issues).  Idlers have been described to me as direct drives with better bass, and yet with some of the larger soundstaging of belt drive/spring suspended decks.

Somewhere amongst these tables, once and for all, I'm gonna' figure out which is the best drive mechanism for hi-fi (or die trying)  ](*,)

richidoo - there is no better format to enjoy than with a $1000 spent on a TT (Technics or other), a $200-300 cartridge and a record cleaning machine.  It just breathes with musical life, man  :-({|= 

DVD-A is very, very good too....but redbook was created at a time when calculators cost $100.00 and did nothing but add/subtract/divide and multiply and the computing power of your current PC would have taken 4 football fields to approximate 25+ years ago. Redbook is a product of that infancy of the digital age....eclipsed by DVD-A's (and HD-DVD and Blu-Ray that adopted DVD-A audio standards) higher resolution 192,000 samples per second and Meridian Lossless Packing.

But, vinyl is just slightly (subjectively) better/more like music still to me.

John
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 10:50:01 PM by thechairguy »

Offline Carlman

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Re: KAB 1200 TT
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2008, 06:21:59 AM »
Thanks for weighing in, John. 

I would imagine any well-executed design with some good R&D behind it will sound good or excellent... Hence why any 1,k table plus 300+/- cart will sound quite nice. 

I had the Pro-Ject RM4 for a while and it sounded lovely.  However, I wanted the convenience of full automation... So I sold it and most of my records to just have a 'novelty' vinyl rig with an old Sony auto I bought on ebay for $100... however, it sounds really good.  I would imagine the 1,k table plus my Dyna cart would bring me about 10% more musical satisfaction ;) I'm holding off on the purchase... but 10% is a lot of improvement in this hobby...

Then again, I don't know if I should even expect that much from a table/arm.  The cart seems the most important to me.  It certainly defines the personality of the sound in my experience. 

I hope to be able to compare apples to apples one day, much like TCG is doing at the moment.  That's a big deal and I'm so happy someone has 'stepped up' to do this kind of comparison.  Maybe once the room is done we can do some vinyl comparos... That'd be super cool.

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline richidoo

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Re: KAB 1200 TT
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2008, 06:28:58 PM »
Carl, that's about where I am too, made a half hearted attempt at vinyl to honor my old Blue Notes. I made my own LPs back in 83 and 85 so I like to be able to listen to those once in a while. But my hifi vinyl attempt didn't go so well. I bought a SL1200 from guitar center but before I could open it, I told y next door neighbor about it and he said, "I wish you told me, I got an old TT you can have for free." So, not knowing the difference between Technics I returned the SL and took his Q2, which is I thought was fine for what I use. It still had original AT cart on it, and used my Technics 2ch 40W receiver's phono and amp to power Infinity speakers. I was happy, finally hearing my Lee Morgan records again after 10 years of silence. Then I got into hifi and everything went to hell when I found out that I was not happy afterall, that my "record player" was not good enough and I needed something better. hahahaha :rofl:

So last year I got the Shure M97 when the AT cart died, I didn't know anything about hifi vinyl, or that cartridges "sounded" like anything. They just held the needle right? Then after getting into hifi far enough to not look back, I got a Bellari phono pre on Fremer's review. It sounds fine, but hums like a power station. I think the wall wart is to blame, but swapping made no improvement. Maybe DC offset on my AC.

So I have not had a good run so far, but then again not looking for another cash leak in the bottom of my hifi yacht. I know I could make it better, but what will that cost me to listen to my 200 LPs that I literally wore the grooves off when I was a teenager playing trumpet along with the records. I wonder what a proper cleaning would do to them. I tried soap/sponge in the sink but no improvemnt in the low level noise, 2 years old. "Ground in dirt!"  haha

I absolutely agree with John, that there is no sound on this beautiful Earth like Coltrane coming out of a record player. It is the voice of God for me, I have a strange religion. That alone is probably worth it, and then I would discover other joys, I'm sure. But I will take it slow. First a decent preamp, preferably a tube kit (any recommendations??) then an AT 150MLX cartridge, then a SL1200.  My biggest question is where do you buy records?? Are there mail order sources that have damn lose to everything made before CDs? Price is not important, I know this is the rabbit hole.

I did hear a slammin vinyl rig last spring here in Raleigh. A friend Dwayne has a VPI HRX (no shit!) with Manley Steelhead and Kaya dipole electrostat speakers. Don't know what cartridge, maybe Sumiko. I agree with your assessment John, the soundstage was enormous and ultra quiet. The best vinyl I have heard yet, and the room, speakers and amplification were not to my taste. Very inspirational.
Rich

thechairguy

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Re: KAB 1200 TT
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2008, 06:31:39 PM »
Hey Carl - Happy New Year, fella'.

Hey, stuff that Sony with 8-10 lbs of Plast-i-Clay (Japanese tables noramlly have a lot of space in there...an exception is the Technis SL-1200 TT's) and you'll be a bit closer than 10% away from your previous 'reference' table.

The stuff really is a terrific equalizer  :clap:

thechairguy

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Re: KAB 1200 TT
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2008, 06:52:04 PM »
Hi richidoo,

For vinyl, I like solid state amplification myself.  Getting noise levels for vinyl down (however that is achieved - quieter bearings, reduction of EM/RF interference, reducing hum, reducing 'joints' and rca connections, mechanical isolation under the table, mains conditioning...egads, vinyl is a very frustrating audiophool product  :roll:...but extremely worthwhile when you dial in most of them right, but is paramount to enjoying it successfully.

Solid state boosts signals 40-60db or more with less noise than any tube preamp can.  I also do not like outboard phono pre's...that's one more joint and poisonous set of rca jacks you're adding. 

You are asking  these measly 0.3 - 5mv voltages (the standard output of most CDP's is a robust 2volts.....or a minimum of 40x the level of the most robust phono cartridge) to jump over multiple cartridge clip, solder joint and rca jacks.....you won't have a signal worth boosting before it reaches the phono preamplication section of whatever device you are using.  I want a pre that is a one stop source for all things line and phono related.

As good vinyl reproduction is already more complicated than line level reproduction (all signals must be boosted to a larger degree AND equalized) you want to keep it all a simple and uncomplicated as possible.

Solid state pre-amplication brings control to the oft-flabby low frequency production of vinyl...so that it mimics 'digital' in this important regards.

Dual mono pre and amplification preserves most of the measly stereo separation inherent in vinyl better/best.  So, solid state full functioned preamp that is dual mono is ideal.  There surely are others, but the old Mitsubishi DA-C series preamps and Superphon Dual Mono's had great phono sections, are solid state, inherently quiet, and dual mono architecture.

I have tube AMPS because I love their flavor, but I dial their gain down and allow the preamp to do most of the heavy lifting of gain in the system to allow for less noise to bleed thru while enjoying tubes.

I know most use SS amps with tube pre's...but it works, for me, better the other way around (with speakers that have benign impedance and have relatively small woofers that require modest damping only)

Pack that Technics with 8-10lbs of Plast-i-Clay and buy a Superphpon of Mitsubishi preamp for under $200 out there...and for less than $250 you'll be enjoying vinyl.  You might even find the Shure not so very awful  :-({|=

whew - another dang mouthful from me  :-# John

Offline allenzachary

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Re: KAB 1200 TT
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2008, 10:49:34 PM »
Guys-

I can't tell you how much it amuses me to see you collectively stumped by vinyl. 

I spent 20+ years in the hi-f i (and lo-fi) industry and thought I knew a bit about it.  Frankly, though, most of the conversations that go on here are well above my head.  The debates over the best IC, room treatment and even power cable(!?) shows you have an understanding of the most subtle and ephemeral.  Yet, when it comes to the most basic and, dare I say, primitive source, the phonograph, you come up with a collective scratch of the head.

True.  I have no hands-on experience with the KAB mod of the Technics 1200, but I have plenty with the original.  I'll reiterate my position about it from one of my earliest posts at AN. The Technics 1200 is not a hi-fidelity instrument...it is strictly industrial.  It was built for the rigors of radio-play: back cues, instant starts, and play at 36 RPMs (to shorten top-40 songs...a four minute song runs loses about 15 seconds, which leaves time-space to sell one more ad for every two songs played).  Later, it was adopted in the disco age by mobile DJ's, as they are incredibly durable, not subject to skipping when bumped by drunk, cocaine induced, polyester clad revelers, and could be tweaked to have dance beats meld from one song to another.  It does a magnificent job for what it was designed.

What it was not designed for was fidelity.  Its tonearm is massive, to accommodate heavy cartridges with short, thick, stubby cantivelers.  The tonearm does not permit a lithe cartridge to perform as it should.  A high quality cartridge strapped to a Technics S-Arm is like a prima ballerina forced to perform in Doc Martens and a full face motorcycle helmet. 

That is not to say that one must spend thousands or avoid '70s Japanese tables.  My TT is a Kenwood KD500, which actually has many similarities to the venerable SL1200.  It was sold my a mass marketing Japanese manufacturer in the mid seventies, it is direct drive, has a pitch control and a groovy orange strobe.  Its base, like the 1200, is also huge and heavy.  It is made from a composite material that simulates marble and has no empty areas inside to create resonance. I couldn't tell you of what it is truly made, but it is heavy and dense enough to reject room vibrations.  The key difference is the Kenwood avails arm choice.  On my table, I use a Sumiko FT3 arm, made in the early 80's and a Adcom Cross Coil Line Trace MK II (high outpu MC) phono cartridge from the same vintage.  It sounds pretty darn good, if I say so myself.

I paid $75 bucks, used, for my KD 500.  A Sumiko FT3 could be had now for about $250.  Throw on a nice Dynavector or Denon high output MCcartridge for about $150 bucks and you are golden with vinyl for less than the cost of a single pair of ICs.

Just be sure to mount your cartridge properly.

By the way, Carl's table is no in need of any clay inside (although that is a nice idea for most Japanese tables).  He has a PSLX500, which is probably the best turntable Sony ever made.  Its body is also dense and has no vibration inducing chambers within.

Admittedly, in the world of high end phono, my Kenwood and Carl's Sony are pedestrian, equivalent to a Honda Accord or a Mazda 6.  The Technics SL 1200, though is more akin to a Mitsubishi Fuso Delivery truck: reliable and durable, but not responsive or comfortable.

Offline richidoo

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Re: KAB 1200 TT
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2008, 06:58:46 AM »
Thanks John, that's some valuable insight. I will definitely try stuffing the old bird with clay after I get it setup to be able to notice such changes. Funny you should mention the old jap electronics, as I have a Sansui tuner, which lately I have been remarking to myself and anyone in my house who would listen that it is my best source, even over the Altmann DAC. WHEN/IF the radio station happens to sound decent and clean, the thing is a monster. So I will check out some of those components you mention. I don't mind SS for low level buffering, but big gain from SS has almost always left me dissatisfied. The Altmann BYOB chip amp is the one exception, but mids are slightly recessed.

Allen, your comments gave me a big smile. Most people who have commented on the table agree with you that it is not the equal of the very best tables available, but for us part time vinylizers it is a very good value for the money as brand new. Comparisons to new hifi tables in the same price range it comes out ahead. When you compare it to used TTs, of course anything goes, depending on the bargain you can find. Thanks for the recommendations, definitely worth looking for those.

WEEZ liked those AT arms like oil-filled PT9, what do you think of those? And could one be fitted to the SL1200? I thought it was a proprietary mounting on which only the stock arm would fit, but John has fitted another successfully.
Thanks
Rich

thechairguy

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Re: KAB 1200 TT
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2008, 09:23:53 AM »
Rich,

I have a Rega arm mated to my Technis 1200....as Origin Live offers an armboard (for about $80 delivered) that will allow fitting any Rega or Rega-'clones' to it.  I bought a junker Technics table with a busted arm with the express intent of fitting the Rega to it.

The Audioquest arm is nice....but unless you make a custom armboard for the Technics, you cannot fit it.  I like the Rega's over the AQ's myself as it has one continuous length of wiring from cartridge pins to rca's.  No hurdles for meager cartridge voltages to hop over.

I own the AQ PT-6 (fluid damped, too) and have two armboards on my VPI HW-19 MK. III...and the Rega sounds better (at least with the Incognito re-wire it does).  It's simply a more direct path and has low friction bearings and a sufficiently hi-strength armtube.  So, it's a terrific arm because of it... 8)

I get sad anytime WEEZ is mentioned (just an aside  :( )

John
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 11:00:54 AM by thechairguy »

Offline allenzachary

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Re: KAB 1200 TT
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2008, 10:08:48 AM »
Chair said pretty much what I was going to say.  You can mount just about any arm to a 1200 base as long as you don't mind performing surgery to replace the armboard.  My Kenwood's armboard was replaced with a specially made piece of Corian (the solid surface countertop stuff) created by an ultra-nerd friend. 

Although I wasn't familiar with the Audioquest PT9 previously, I just learned it's based on the Sumiko FT3 design, so I like it a lot.  The oil filled chamber makes it awkward to move, but fortunately, moves are rare.  It is a durable, yet subtle, tonearm. It also is pretty darn good looking.

Offline allenzachary

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Re: KAB 1200 TT
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2008, 10:18:23 AM »
Here's a pristine KD500 available on ebay for $175 + $50 shippping. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Kenwood-KD-500-550-w-marble-base-uncut-armboard_W0QQitemZ140190212304QQihZ004QQcategoryZ3283QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m118

Before you think this guy's gouging for shipping, look at his turtable packing methodology (farther down the page).  It's a good guide in case you ever have to ship one yourself.