Author Topic: Vinyl Cleaning Experiment  (Read 12974 times)

Offline BobM

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 3318
Vinyl Cleaning Experiment
« on: September 11, 2014, 05:38:20 AM »
I recently bought the reissue of Joey Defrancesco "Plays Sinatra His Way" 180g. took it out of its sleeve and put it on the VPI to wash. I was in a hurry so I just used the VPI fluid and vacumed it off, put it on the turntable and listened. It sounded OK, but there was some surface noise and the soundstage was disappointing.

So I bellied back up the the 16.5 and went through my usual cleaning routine with Disk Doctor solution and 2 rinses, then gave a listen again. A very nice improvement - quiet, spacious, more dynamic even.

This really isn't about what is the best solution to use, I know we all have our favorites (e.g. Disk Doctor, L'Art du Son, some home-made solution, etc.) it's more about the fact that there is indeed an improvement to be had by cleaning new vinyl and the fact that different solutions do indeed make a difference in the resulting sound.
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Cry and you'll have to blow your nose.

Offline sleepyguy24

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 904
Re: Vinyl Cleaning Experiment
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2014, 10:33:20 AM »
Hi Bob

Thanks for sharing the results from your experiment. Some things I'm curious about. What does your vinyl set-up comprise of? I keep thinking that the more expensive systems that are more resolving benefit from your cleaning process. If someone has a budget system like what I have would you benefit from the cleaning process you do?

I have a budget TT set up consisting Technics 1200 Mk2, with a Denon DL-110 HOMC cart. Phono preamp is a Pro-Ject Tube Phono that uses 12AX7 tubes. I don't know if I would reap the benefits from doing the cleaning process you do with the new vinyl. Right now when I have a new vinyl record I just use a discwasher brush to bring up any dirt, vacuum the record twice and then use a anti static gun before I start listening.

Lastly what was done years ago with listening to records? From talking to my family and older friends all they did was brush the record a couple of times, brush the stylus and play. I played for them a youtube video where a guy used steam to clean his records and they thought the guy was looney.

Offline BobM

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 3318
Re: Vinyl Cleaning Experiment
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2014, 12:01:44 PM »
Cleaning will benefit any rig, just like cleaning your contacts on RCA's and interconnects and power cords. Don't shortchange what you can get because you don't think your rig is top shelf (and that is not shabby at all).

It is still worth the effort to try and get the best you can out of what you have for both enjoyment of the music and enjoyment of the hobby. Maybe you think it isn't top shelf because you haven't cleaned your vinyl thoroughly and heard the difference?

Plus, any cartridge that has a fine line style stylus will sit deeper into the groove, so cleaner grooves will definitely make an improvement in the sound.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 12:03:28 PM by BobM »
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Cry and you'll have to blow your nose.

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Vinyl Cleaning Experiment
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2014, 08:34:31 PM »
If your system is good enough to hear the vinyl noise, then it's good enough to clean the vinyl!  :thumb: 

Microbes are the problem. They eat paper sleeve/cover and colonize the grooves, stuck to the groove walls where they die and dry up stuck down inside the groove. Bacteria eat the molds and add to the party. Wet brush bristles are too fat to fit in the grooves and if it was thin enough it would be too limp to do anything twss. Liquids can dissolve the mess but it takes time and strong cleaning chems. Chems are not enough by themselves, there needs mechanical agitation. But how do you scrub the dirty surface that matters, down inside that tiny groove?  :wtf:

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Vinyl Cleaning Experiment
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2014, 12:30:52 PM »
Yesterday I pressure washed a couple records. It was fun. My theory is that traditional record cleaning techniques don't put much kinetic energy into the groove. Bristles are too thick to go into the groove, or if thin enough they are too soft to scrub. I think that the reason vacuuming is superior to towel drying is that the vacuum imparts kinetic energy to the liquid providing a weak scrubbing action for a very short time, but enough to make a difference when combined with surfactants and solvents. I wondered how much improvement a sustained high kinetic energy scrub from harmless water molecules would yield.

My PW is 5HP ~2000psi machine, I used a 25 degree green tip, about 4 inches from the record surface, so there was probably about 1000psi actually hitting the record grooves. It is enough power to remove mold and grime from my white PVC lawn furniture. I hold the nozzle 1/2" from those chairs and it does no damage. So I figure, what the heck?

I started with the PW wand about 2 feet away and looked at the shiny surfaces of the record for damage before getting incrementally closer. Finally got down to 4 inches distance and shiny surfaces on the LP gutter remained perfectly shiny, so the water is not damaging the record. How could it? I assume that a red zero degree tip would damage the vinyl if held up close, as it would damage vinyl siding when used with a professional 3000psi PW.

I had to build a contraption to hold the record securely for PW. Placed on the ground, the PW overspray at the edges was strong enough to clean the driveway concrete around it. But driveway dirt is nothing compared to dried mold and bacteria.

How did it work? Subjectively it sounded noticeably better. Even blasting with the Bulls-Eye hose nozzle on the 80psi hose made a noticeable improvement. Blasting the grooves with 80psi water makes it quieter and cleaner sounding, lower noisefloor. But some ticks and pops remain, so the pressure had to go up.  I'm not yet sure whether additional pressure made any noticeable improvement.

I recorded the playback signal of each record before and after pressure washing. I will analyze these and report. I did see that some of the tick transients visible on the waveform were removed by PW, but that was expected.

Subjective opinion on the change is that pressure washing/hose blasting does make the records cleaner (duh) and reduces low level noise floor, makes the record sound louder. There was some evidence of it actually being significantly louder, but I have to test that more carefully to rule out testing error. Some ticks remain, although there is no evidence of visible scratches on the record surface. Maybe a chemical pre-treat will improve the PW cleaning further.

Offline BobM

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 3318
Re: Vinyl Cleaning Experiment
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2014, 02:50:18 PM »
Rich, did you go pick up the round center labels from your neighbors driveway when you were done?
 ;)

You know, we all treat our records like they are easily breakable, and they are if you drop them on their side or step on them and scuff them. But then people use wood glue and pressure washers to clean them and they come out fine. I would guess most scratches probably come from that damn diamond skipping across the surface.

Laugh and the world laughs with you. Cry and you'll have to blow your nose.

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Vinyl Cleaning Experiment
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2014, 09:16:58 PM »
Rich, did you go pick up the round center labels from your neighbors driveway when you were done?
 ;)
   

 :rofl:    I made a cloogey label protector.

The older gentleman across the street said he is a big jazz fan, and they are nosy neighbors, so I'm sure he was looking on in horror.   :D

Offline tmazz

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 12088
  • Just basking in the glow of my tubes.....
Re: Vinyl Cleaning Experiment
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2014, 10:11:43 PM »

The older gentleman across the street said he is a big jazz fan, and they are nosy neighbors, so I'm sure he was looking on in horror.   :D

If he is noisy then he must know you are an audiophile, in which case nothing you do should surprise him. #-o
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline rollo

  • Industry Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 6957
  • Rollo Audio - Home demo the only way to know
Re: Vinyl Cleaning Experiment
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2014, 07:47:01 AM »
  Someone should have taken a video. A youthtube winner.

charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm Industries - Aqua Acoustic, Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm - Kuzma - QLN - Audio Hungary Qualiton - Fritz speakers -Gigawatt -Vinnie Rossi,TWL, Swiss Cables, Merason DAC.

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Vinyl Cleaning Experiment
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2014, 07:24:00 PM »
I'll be doin it again, take a vid just for you, Charlie!
That last batch no video in case it shattered into 100 pieces   :duh

Found no improvement between the waveform recording of 80psi and 1000psi cleaning of the same record. The loudness change I 'saw' was just different vertical scaling in Audacity. I have not yet compared the waveforms for the uncleaned vs PW.

In other late-breaking, record-cleaning news... I found these cleaning/polishing pads from surbuf.com. Called MicroFingers, they are not just velour, they are designed for polishing and cleaning. I think the bristles are somewhat stiff and able to stay upright when when or with pressure applied. They make a "Fine Fiber" version which has thinner bristles, which might be better for scrubbing inside LP grooves to narrow for normal bristles. I've got a box of the regular "coarse" fiber HHSR and the "fine" fiber HHFF pads on order.  Cheap, on sale til 11/30. I will compare them to my DiscDoc brushes.  http://www.surbuf.com/

Offline BobM

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 3318
Re: Vinyl Cleaning Experiment
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2014, 05:13:09 AM »
Interesting find. I'd love to know how they compare against the Disk Doctor brushes. Also, a lot of people use the disk doctor brush, well pieces of it really, as the microfiber "lips" on the vacume wand of their cleaning machines, VPI's especially. These look like 3/8" thick pads. Do you think they might be any way to peel the skin off and use them on the VPI wands or are they just too thick?
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Cry and you'll have to blow your nose.

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Vinyl Cleaning Experiment
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2014, 05:55:08 AM »
Yes, I think that may be possible. The pads are stiff foam, and the magic finger surface is glued on, so the pad layer should be removable with a razor. I'm not sure it would improve on the velour for the RCM vacuum wand though, as its job is merely to seal the vacuum against the record surface, acting more as a soft, safe sliding gasket than as a scrubber, so the softer more compliant velour material might work better. I'm imagining this surbuf stuff to be a bit rigid as a pad and with stiffer bristles than the DD brush, to hopefully get down into the groove to mechanically agitate dirt down deep in the groove, something no other record brush can do. But I am equally ready to be disappointed with it being just a 3x5 sponge with velour glued on.

Offline tmazz

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 12088
  • Just basking in the glow of my tubes.....
Re: Vinyl Cleaning Experiment
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2014, 06:03:07 AM »
But I am equally ready to be disappointed with it being just a 3x5 sponge with velour glued on.

But it is audiophile grade velour......  :D

.... or it will be if you give it the thumbs up.  8)
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline StereoNut

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
  • So much great music, so little time!
Re: Vinyl Cleaning Experiment
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2014, 07:29:59 PM »
Hey Rich, you neighbor said to say hello to you! :rofl:
"Friends, Romans & Countrymen; lend me your ears"

• Primaluna Dialogue Tube Pre-Amp
• N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 Amp
• Bolder/EE Minimax DAC
• Cambridge D-500SE CDP
• Von Schweikert 2012 Mod.VR-4 Gen.III speakers
• VPI Prime/Soundsmith MMP3/DV20x2H
• T.W.L

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Vinyl Cleaning Experiment
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2014, 05:57:35 AM »