AudioNervosa

Group Therapy => Sharing Experiences => Topic started by: richidoo on August 01, 2007, 05:11:55 PM

Title: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: richidoo on August 01, 2007, 05:11:55 PM
On the menu this time are speaker cables: JPS Superconductor 3, Reality SCs, Harmonic Technologies Pro9+, possibly Grover S Biwire SCs, and maybe some other strange and rare examples of the art.

bigfish8 might be convinced to bring his still-wet-paint SP Tech Timepiece 2.1 speakers over. He is a great sport, so it will be fun to meet Ken, live and in person!

We will have an informal discussion on the pros and cons of starting a "Triangle Audio Society." All opinions are welcome for clarity and sanity check before embarking on such an ambitious endeavor. SteveB and I have been mulling it over for a few months. Time for some real world feedback.

I don't know if the SAS Audio Labs 11A preamp will be in town by then (or still be here?) but that would certainly be a great feature, considering it is said to be one of the best preamps out there. Local audiophiles would get a chance to hear it in person without the fuss, and Steve Sammet would probably appreciate that opportunity as much as the listeners, so it might be a good thing to pursue.

Also playing will be AP850 patio speakers by outdoorspeakerdepot.com and Audiosource 200 amplifier, connected with 60 feet of the cheapest, unshielded 16ga copper speaker wire available. Not too bad considering the loud frogs and bugs for background noise....

And whatever else anyone wants to bring for show and tell ;)

Food served. We start around 5pm.
See you then! Thanks.
Rich
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: bpape on August 01, 2007, 06:31:47 PM
I'll be interested in your cable comparison.  I run the Pro 9's and have had absolutely no desire to change since I bought them. 

Enjoy!

Bryan
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: stereofool on August 02, 2007, 03:02:37 AM
I am IN  :drool:!!!
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: richidoo on August 02, 2007, 08:21:05 AM
You got it Bryan!
Great Steve! Now it's a real party!
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Inscrutable on August 10, 2007, 05:37:07 PM
I think I may come up for air and make this.  Look forward to seeing everyone.
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Carlman on August 12, 2007, 11:20:32 AM
I'll be there unless something really wacky happens... I'll bring some cables. :)
-C
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Bigfish8 on August 13, 2007, 09:58:33 AM
I am planning to attend and will bring my SP Tech Timepieces & Stands.

Looking forward to meeting everyone!

Ken
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Carlman on August 25, 2007, 11:58:28 AM
Looks like I'll be there soon... Just spoke to Brandon... he'll be there as well.
I'm bringing Scott Nixon's new DAC for all to hear... trying to find my digital cables now... It can take coax, toslink, or USB... neato.

I'm not sure if Ken's bringing his Reality SC's... I have a pair and some jumpers... We don't both need to bring them, though...

Looking forward to it!!! :) :)

-C

PS, I'm bringing a camera as well...
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Bigfish8 on August 25, 2007, 12:06:51 PM
Carl:

I can bring the Reality SCs but Rich indicated you were bringing yours.  Please let me know and I will be glad to bring them.  Timepieces and stands are already in the car.

Ken
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Carlman on August 25, 2007, 12:17:11 PM
It'd be great if you could bring them... and jumpers if you have them... I can bring mine otherwise.
-C
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Bigfish8 on August 25, 2007, 12:20:15 PM
It'd be great if you could bring them... and jumpers if you have them... I can bring mine otherwise.
-C

Carl:

I have the cables ready to take to the car so I will bring them.  The only jumpers I have are the ones that came with the Timepieces and of course they will be on the speakers. 

Looking forward to meeting you and eveyone else.

Ken
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Carlman on August 25, 2007, 12:22:47 PM
OK, cool.. I'll bring the Reality cable jumpers, then... no problem... they make a noticeable improvement..
-C
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: WEEZ on August 25, 2007, 02:24:00 PM
Can't wait to hear the report :). And see some photo's :)

Have fun..

WEEZ
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: stereofool on August 25, 2007, 10:18:06 PM
Rich,

Once again, thank you for your great hospitality :D!!!!

It was good to see the familiar faces, as well as meeting some new ones.

Mine eyelids are about to slam shut...I'll report my impressions later this morning.
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Bigfish8 on August 26, 2007, 05:41:29 AM
Rich:

I just moved the Timepieces from the car back into their home.  I really want to thank you for inviting me and for the food/hospitality.  It was great meeting all the guys.  I had an ear opening experience as to how important gear and cables are to maximizing the potential of speakers.  My system has a lot of up-side potential and I will enjoy the refinement process!

Thanks again and I hope to have the opportunity to participate with you and guys again.

Ken

Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Carlman on August 26, 2007, 06:20:26 AM
What a great afternoon and evening!  Thanks so much for really good food, hospitality, family arrangements, and your time.  Also thanks to everyone who made the trek to Rich's place... We had a really good turnout and some folks had to make quite a drive to be there.  It was a pleasure speaking to everyone, I had a really nice time chatting with you all.

I think everyone came with all sorts of different interests... We had so much gear show up that was interesting, new and fun to hear.  Bigfish brought his SP Tech Timepiece 2.1's and some really nice stands.  Thanks for hauling all that over on such a hot day!  

There were a lot of speaker cables... We compared Rich's JPS Labs to Grover's, the Reality Cables, Madisound? and Audience Au24.  If I missed some, let me know.  The top 3 were JPS, Grover's, and Au24.  I use the Reality Cables at home... And it was interesting to see how a cable that works so well in my system didn't 'synergize' in Rich's system... It was fun to hear what did/didn't work... and compare all the different effects of the cables.  The Grover's were fairly 'forward' and brought me to the front row of the presentation whereas the Audience cables were much farther back... The JPS' seem to put me somewhere in the middle.  Rich's system works best with the JPS's by far... no question.

We compared the speaker cables on the SP Tech's, which weren't properly tuned to the room.. They were pretty much just setup inside Rich's Legacy Audio Focus 20/20 speakers, with minimal (if any) toe.  We didn't measure them for perfect and symetrical distance but eyeballed them fairly well.  It was a relief to hear the Timepiece's in their latest rendition.  (sidenote: I auditioned a defective pair a while back so I didn't get to hear them properly.)  The SP Tech's still aren't a good match to my ear but I can see the appeal.  They had lots of good, clean, articulate bass last night... they like to have some room.  I noticed this before when I first heard them in NY at Daniel's place... He has such a nice, wide room that the bass has a chance to expand... or 'bloom'... whereas in a small room, the bass gets reinforced, and then reinforced again.... and then resonates... which is what happened to me.  Going from the SP Tech's back to Rich's Legacy's sounded like the bass was reduced to me...  But I think it's because the bass wasn't bumped as much.. I don't know.  Also, I found the Legacy's a little less fatiguing.  I'm not a fan of the waveguide tweeter... just isn't for me.  The Legacy's have a 'dryer' presentation but I could enjoy them more for some reason.  Anyway, onto other stuff....

Digital stuff... Shane brought an Oracle transport and DAC and I brought my newly acquired Scott Nixon DAC. I've found the SN to be a stellar DAC far better than any previous DAC in my own system and I think it stacked up fairly well when compared to the Oracle.  I much preferred the highs on the SN DAC but preferred the deepest octave of bass retrieval on the Oracle.  However, the SN is a non-oversampling DAC and therefore sounds more natural to me.  I'm willing to give up a tiny amount of deep bass detail for an overall more 'real' sound... Oh, and save a few thousand.. ;)  (~$900 vs. ~$5,000+)  I liked that the Oracle DAC had analog inputs, making it easier to A/B the 2 DAC's.. It had a host of digital inputs and outputs as well.. which besides facilitating comparisons also allowed for much digital cable swapping.

One of the more dramatic comparisons of the evening was 2 digital cables... I couldn't believe how much difference there was between them.  I was in the kitchen at the time but the A/B was pretty amazing from there... I'll let others comment on digital cable comparing, though... I wasn't really in the sweet spot for most of that... I just thought it was noteworth at just how much difference a digital cable can make.

We did not get a chance to compare Grover's latest IC's... we didn't get much chance to compare a lot... There was a LOT there... We did listen to the Van Alstine preamp when we first got there... I thought it sounded alright... not really 'special' to me but it did a lot right.  We never even connected the Minimax, the Shrimp, or the Continuum...

However, one thing that we did do is decide to start organizing things a little better for future meetings.  Having a million things to compare all at once just isn't going to work... It's hard to take away really meaningful results when so much is changing.  So, I'm looking forward to that.

Thanks again to everyone...

-Carl
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: bpape on August 26, 2007, 06:40:55 AM
Sounds like a good time.  Having a lot of stuff to compare is certainly fun but as you said, it's difficult to really get a feel for what everything is doing.  Regular get-togethers where one thing is swapped and compared in a room/system combination that is already somewhat optimized really lets you see/hear what's happening.  I think you heard that with the speaker cabling comparison. 

It's just the old scientific method.  Set up a control, minimize the variables, and do a comparison.  Even if it's 3-5 different things on one type (speaker cables, DACs, speakers, whatever), you get an idea of synergy and change.

Glad to hear you're going to get together on a more regular basis.  Looking forward to more feedback from others.

Bryan
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Carlman on August 26, 2007, 07:00:14 AM
....It's just the old scientific method.  Set up a control, minimize the variables, and do a comparison.  Even if it's 3-5 different things on one type (speaker cables, DACs, speakers, whatever), you get an idea of synergy and change.

Glad to hear you're going to get together on a more regular basis.  Looking forward to more feedback from others.

Bryan

Yes, this has become increasingly apparent and I think we all recognized it this time...  :lol:  I like the way the local club is shaping up... I'm very excited that we have a lot of folks genuinely interested in making this a regular occurence and having some focus.... :)

-C
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Carlman on August 26, 2007, 07:32:32 AM
Oops... forgot some stuff... We also got to meet Saul, a new member who brought a modified Pioneer DVD player and an integrated amp he'd built.  I thought the amp had a great sound to it and there are improvements coming... so, I'm looking forward to hearing it again. 

I'm sure I forgot other stuff... I'll try to get my few photos uploaded soon... A good opportunity to use our improved Gallery (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?action=gallery) features! :)

-Carl
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: lonewolfny42 on August 26, 2007, 08:09:23 AM
Quote
I'll try to get my few photos uploaded soon...

Nice....thanks Carl !!! :beer:
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Carlman on August 26, 2007, 10:20:53 AM
Don't thank me yet... I only had 3 that looked good enough to post... Check them out here. (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?action=gallery;su=user;cat=2;u=5)

There were others shooting many more, better photos and I'd really like to see them... Feel free to email them to me at cmcmillan3 at yahoo . com and I'll post them under the same gallery area...

-C
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: mdconnelly on August 26, 2007, 11:21:51 AM
Damn, sorry I couldn't make it last night... I really wanted to hear the Timepieces *and* the results of the speaker cable comparisons.    Rich, which JPS speaker cables are you using?   Sounds like the JPS stacked up well compared to the Grover or Reality.

I've got a loooong run of JPS SC+ biwire (23' run under floor) and have been thinking of either getting them cut them down to size or replacing.   
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: hometheaterdoc on August 26, 2007, 01:08:54 PM
ok... I was in attendance yesterday as already alluded...  there is a LOT to cover in this post, so pardon me if I get bullet-pointy and don't speak flowery language for pages and pages :)

first thing playing when I arrived was squeezebox to SN Dac to AVA preamp to Manleys to Legacy speakers.  Speaker cables were Grover and interconnects were grover with Analysis Plus digital cable.  Sound...... meh... not my cup of tea at all... average at best, not great detail, definitely bright sounding... only listened to a couple songs and then went on to other things.

I ran the grill for part of the time and chatted for a lot of the early evening.  So I didn't participate in a lot of the comparo stuff.  I honestly only heard a couple minutes of Saul's (I hope I'm spelling that ok) source and integrated amp.  I thought the modded player was holding things back at first and was confirmed when he switched to the oracle source to his integrated amp.  I'd like to hear more of this integrated at later meetings....

A couple clarifications:  The Oracle DAC-1000 can be used a fixed output DAC, or it can have full preamp function.  It has a multitude of digital inputs (and outputs) as well as several analog inputs (including one HT bypass unity gain analog input so you can integrate surround sound with your two channel rig in a multi-purpose room).  It's not just a DAC, it's a DAC and preamp in one chassis (and I know we've had that discussion in another thread at one point about whether that's a good or bad thing).  One neat feature about the DAC1000 that came in handy last night was that each input has its own volume memory setting.  So you can break out an SPL meter, match the volume settings between inputs, and they are remembered as you are switching between inputs.  That came in handy last night.

The DAC-1000 is an oversampling DAC, but the oversampling is selectable and can be defeated.  Early in the evening, most listening took place with the 192kHz setting, but virtually everything later in the night (including speaker cable comparisons) were done with the Oracle set to bypass on oversampling (i.e. it was straight 16/44 with no processing).  There is definitely a difference in presentation between oversampling and not.

I was an idiot and left the house without remembering to bring my BNC-RCA adapter for the back of the Oracle CD-1000.  That would have come in handy because it would have allowed an apples to apples comparison with the SN DAC by using the JPS Labs SC3 AES and SC3 RCA digital cables.  As it was, we ended up having to use the Analysis Plus Digital Oval that had a BNC on one end from the factory to feed the SN Dac.

The SP speakers weren't positioned ideally for comparison.  We set them up inside the Legacys and a few inches foward so that reflections to either side because of the Legacy speakers wasn't toooo much of an issue.  We did go through a few basic measurements to get the speakers evenly spaced, centered and equidistant from the listening position and front wall.  We played with toe in a bit to get them lined up a bit better.  They were far from ideally setup (including not being perfectly level), but were slightly better than just "plunk down and listen". 


anyways, back to the show...

we got to hear Richard's RWA modded Olive music server.  He had it hooked up via a Stereovox digital cable to begin with.  My initial thought was the Olive was total crap as it was thin, brittle, and very bright sounding.  We swapped the Stereovox cable for the Analysis Plus Digital Oval and it got *muuuuuuuuuuuuuuch* better.  I don't understand what others like in the Stereovox digital because in the context of this setup, it was truly awful.  I'm hoping it was just a system synergy thing...   

others did more extensive comparisons with the music server compared to the same disk being played in the transport itself.  I gather the opinion was the Oracle transport has a better foundation to things and more refinement in the bottom end than the others.  but that was just the comments I heard.  I didn't do any direct A/B comparo in the prime listening spot.

I came to the get together mostly to hear the SP Tech speakers as I've been interested in them for quite some time now, and I too heard the broken pair when they came through town a while back.  So I really joined the listening party when we got around to hooking up the SP Tech's. 

SP Tech Thoughts: 

-  revealing of upstream components.  When we first started playing them, I hated them.  waaaay too forward and forced sounding.  Once we made a couple cable swaps, they changed dramatically (and for the better).  We did a lot of our comparisons on these speakers and every change was blatently right there for you to hear the differences.  It's hard to truly say the speakers character because of how revealing they were.  I'm sure a lot of what we thought is invluenced by the combo of gear in front of them.
-  very dynamic speaker.  They don't hesitate or compress when a big dynamic swing hits.
-  I liken these speakers to a jack hammer.  They hit you with whatever the recording is.  They push it out at you rather than be laid back and relaxed.  This was true even with cable changes to make things more relaxed sounding.  It was very telling at the end when we switched back to the Legacy speakers (which aren't my favorite at all for other reasons), how much more relaxed and at ease I was listening.  I was more tense and on edge when listening to the SP Techs, even if I wasn't concious of it all the time.  I think Brandon mentioned something along the same lines near the end of the evening
-  very small sweet spot.  Once you get off axis, the imaging completely disappears worse than a lot of other speakers.  In the window, they do throw a very nice stage. 
-  They do NOT like to be toed in (or at least in this instance didn't like it).  Very dramatic the difference between toe in angles.  I think I might have been the only one that got to hear this as I quickly changed things and we listened after that almost exclusively with very little toe-in.
-  I would definitely need tubey tubes or a hybrid :) if I owned these speakers.  Everyone knows my preference for a more relaxed sound, which kind of flies in the face of the Oracle stuff, which is pretty ruthless in its own right...  Overall, I was very impressed and I think Ken got himself a deal there with a speaker that will allow him to build his system around it.  It's a great rock speaker.  I'm not sure it would be my first choice for intimate and laid back recordings.  You definitely have to be careful about what electronics you put in front of it.


Speaker cable comparo was interesting.  I wasn't in the sweet spot for this.  I was in a seat to the left.  So everything I can comment on had nothing to do with imaging.  But I could very easily discern PRAT, tone, and detail.

Grover - I really didn't like these.  They had plenty of detail, but were the most forward sounding of all the cables.  Too bright and thin for me.

Audience AU24 - one of the best cables for timing I've ever heard.  A little thin/brittle in parts for me.  It was laid back (you could tell the stage was at the speakers and 10 feet behind whereas Grover was 12 feet in front.  It was a weird phenomena all around to sit perpendicular to the speakers and "see" how far out the stage came out from the speakers with the different cables).  Pretty realistic sounding.

Supra - I think we nicknamed these the "Fantasia" cables for how they tended to push things out at you and splash and bloom them kind of like the scences in the movie.  It was kind of like a fireworks display.  Not my favorite at all.

Reality - These just died in this setup.  They squashed and compressed everything.  It was like everything happened in a 4 inch depth several feet in front of the speakers.  Fuzzy, lacking detail and wobbled woefully on dynamic swings.  these were easily the worst of the cables we tried.

JPS SC 3 - I'm very biased here as I sell these.  But there is a reason I became a dealer for them and it had nothing to do with profits/losses/sales and I think folks in the room found out why it is I'm a dealer.  I think these were the universal favorite in the room.  they were also easily the most expensive cable in the room, so they should have been better! :)


lots of other talk thoughout the course of the night, plans for more frequent get togethers, great coversations with regular attendees and some new faces.  It's too bad i didn't get more time to compare the SN DAC sound, as well as hear a few more preamps.  I trust Rich will give us a more detailed report at a later date based on all the preamps he currently has in house to try :)

Great to see everyone!  Thanks again Rich for the great hospitality and place to meet and greet!  That was probably the most fun I've had at one of these get togethers.  It was a great evening all around :)

Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: richidoo on August 26, 2007, 01:43:02 PM
Hi Mike, we missed you. But we decided to start meeting every other month, so there will be more coming. Once we get some organization together I'll post the info. I decided to get the SC3 SCs.  I like them very much.

Thanks to everybody who came over last night, especially those who drove a long distance, and those who brought over something. A very special thanks from me to Bigfish8 (Ken) who brought the Timepieces, Reality cables, home made mexican bean dip, chips, brownies and a giant heart, open mind. We all loved meeting you Ken, and hanging out with you. We gave trhe Timepieces quite a workout, having played them for the last half of the gathering with lots of loud well recorded music. Speaker cables comparisons were made with Reference Recordings Exotic Dances from the Opera, track one, a Rimsky-Korsikov piece with losts of big brass, complex passages, huge bass drum accents, great Keith Johnson recording clarity, and huge dynamics. The SPs never flinched, and revealed the cable differences very easily. I'm not sure the Legacys would have been as esay to use for that comparison. So essentially we picked our favorite wires for use with Timepieces and PP tube amps. It might have been very different with other equip.

I can see how the Timepieces would be ideal for an audio engineer. They were vastly open sounding and projecting. They are revealing of details like a microscope, so an engineer can adjust sound easily. They are firmly in the audiophile camp of speaker sound (low distortion, direct) as opposed to the musical (euphonic, relaxing), IMO. They reminded me of the sound of mixing and mastering monitors I have spent many fun hours with. Not what I wuld want to have at home, but I do some recording work on the Legacys and sometimes have trouble hearing what I need and have to hire a pro. Listening to string quartets (which we didn't try last night) might be less enjoyable than on Legacys. Switching back to the Legacy's gave a sense of relaxation, but the sense of detail and transparency was less intense on the Focus, especially in mids.  Listening carefully, I could hear it all still there, but not as pressurized for brain injection as with the SPs. There were some things that the SPs were clearly better at, especially some loud mid-range stuff which sounded boxy and distorted on Focus, maybe box resonance, but clear and effortless on the SP. That was very valuable for me to hear. Some of the funny noises I have been hearing which I had attributed to the room acoustics, tubes, etc are indeed coming from my speakers. For the first time, I am considering a new speaker search. Overall very nice speakers! Thanks Ken!

Despite Ken's heroic efforts, the MVP has to go to Shane, the hometheaterdoc. Shane offered us to use anything in his vast arsenal of high end toys days in advance, and stayed in contact througout the week as I requested more and more stuff. In the end, he found a way to adjust his schedule to bring it all over and join us. He set up his stuff, and a lot of other stuff at the beginning. He adjusted and setup Ken's Timepieces, along with Carl and RichardS. Shane graciously offered to finish cooking at the grill when I was called away, and did a fine job. ;) Then Shane continued to play cable caddy all night, helping with virtually every gear swap once the SPs were in play. And after 4 visits to my house, I finally got the truthful and valuable opinion of my speakers from the often too polite Shane - not his favorite, and after better hearing their flaws in comparison to the SPs I was grateful for his opinion in more detail. Not only that, he left the oracle Digital stack, JPS ICs, and a cool Usher preamp behind for me to play with for a couple days. As usual Shanes gear set the bar for the other challengers and took the whole meeting up a large step in validity and fun for everyone. All this, and I only heard him say the word "MSRP" one time!! haha :) So big thanks to Shane!!

Carl came by early and helped get things set up and formulate a game plan which we promptly abandoned when we started having fun. :) Lots of hook up help, haulingin Ken's speaker, general grease on the gears inplanning the event. Thanks Carl!

Bryan, we had the HTPro9 on hand, but they did not make it into the rotation, we just had too much stuff to listen to, and I had forgotten your request to compare the HTs until I just reread the thread. A lot of that forgettin goin on lately, sorry! In my experience with them, they have a great sound, very fun and sunny on any kind of music. Huge bass, crystal clear treble and mids. Very dancy, super timing. On my speakers they have a ringy quality that I can hear but don't know how to describe in words. It is severe on the anticables and the reason I started the SC search which ended with the SC3. SC3 seems to be the opposite, no ring at all, as if there are shock absorbers in there to keep the sound still and peaceful and matter of fact, without the usually pleasurable ringiness. My wife and kids never danced as much as when we had the HTs on extremely extended audition, thanks to stereofool!

When I first first hooked up the Grover SCs they were extremely hyped in the treble. Bass was very weak, so that the bottom notes of the piano were literally inaudible. Ringing was easily audible. After 5 hours, this settled down a lot. After 20 hours, they are now close to the JPS. The sound is lively and sunny as if there is ring, but I can't specifically hear it anymore. Since the ring has diminished so quickly, and Grover usually recommends 50+ hours for breakin, I will continue to run them in and then compare to SC3 directly, and maybe pass it around for others opinions. So far I am mightily impressed. The bass filled in immensely, easily showing off the AVA T8 preamp's very robust low end. They were the first SC used on the SPs last night, and showed no noteable limitations on that very revealing speaker. They were used for most of the speaker audition before we started swapping speaker cables. I felt that the JPS SC3 did edge out the Grovers in tightness and control, but with tone, detail and musicality they were right there with the SC3.

I liked the Au24s too, but the tone was not accurate enough for me. Trumpets were perfect, clarinet was hyped and gorgeous, violins too thin, not enough body and wood. Bass drum lacked texture and refinement, but had all the frequency extension of the others.

I met Hantra for the first time, and enjoyed some laughs with him. We have similar taste in sound I think, so I'm looking forward to hearing his system sometime, and picking his brain some more.

I took some pictures, but not checked them yet. If they're ok I will post them in the gallery and link it here. I see Shane wrote a long post and finished before me, but I've not yet read his.. :)
Rich
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: bpape on August 26, 2007, 01:48:47 PM
No problem Rich.  Sounds like you had plenty of other things keeping all of you very busy.  Another time perhaps.

Bryan
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: richidoo on August 26, 2007, 02:00:45 PM
Yup, I'm sure Steve (stereofool) can bring them back next time and we can do a special analysis/comparison just for you! :)
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Hantra on August 26, 2007, 04:21:03 PM
Thanks Rich for your hospitality.  It was a good time. 

I enjoyed swapping different cables, and gear.  It was fun to listen for the differences.  Rich's room is fantastic!  It's a challenging room, but I think he has put in a lot of work to treat it the right way, and it was evident on the first listen.

I think my favorite of the evening would have to be the Nixon DAC.  The Oracle DAC seemed more forceful on the bottom end, and it was very good.  But I am old, and stuck in my audiophile ways these days.  I can't live with anything that oversamples anymore.  If I hadn't heard the Nixon DAC last night, I wouldn't have really noticed the unnatural high frequency digital noise.  But after 2 seconds with the Nixon, going back to the Oracle was difficult for me. 

Same thing with my Au24's.  I'm not closed-minded.  I really WANT to find a better sounding wire, which is why I've tried 30 or more since I found the Au24.  The JPS is amazing, and it has incredible frequency extension.  The bass is tighter, and it has phenomenal tone.  But where I part ways with every other cable I've listened to, is the timing.  I'm not a timing freak or anything.  I don't have Naim gear.  But for me, the Au24 has a way of removing itself from the path, and sounding like a cable has been removed from the system when I put it in line.  I think this is mostly due to the timing being so psychologically "right".  All the beats arrive exactly when my mind expects them to, and I haven't heard that particular attribute as evident in any other wire.  It's hard to describe to folks who haven't lived with the wire for a week or two.  But when you take it out, and replace it with anything, even a $25,000 MIT, it's evident that a cable has been 'added', and the timing is all wrong.  Granted the MIT's are the best I've heard besides the Au, I still can't deal with them.  I'm willing to give up whatever else a cable does better, to have this cable in line. 

I was shocked to hear what the Reality cables did on the SP's.  I've heard the Reality before in my own system, and thought it was really good for the money.  But in this system, it was difficult to listen to, and just confused. 

I wanted to like the SP Techs b/c I hated them so much last time Carl brought them to my house.  Since I heard that pair was broken, I wanted to hear these.  They did some impressive things.  For example, back in Rich's kitchen (20+ feet away), they sounded really together, and seamless.  Up close, they were much better, but still oppressive.  I can't think of a better word.  Everything shot out and slapped me in the back of the neck with these.  They had a LOT of detail, and were competent in the lower bass, but they lacked midrange, and again were just projecting a virtual forcefield of sound that kept making me want to back up off them.  When we played the Legacy speakers at the end of the night, I felt like I had been sitting in the principal's office getting yelled at for the last 4 hours, and now I was finally out, and able to unclench my teeth. 

The thing that sucked most is that I didn't bring any music.  I was assuming Carl was bringing his hard drive, and since we like a lot of the same stuff. . . But he forgot it.  So out of everything we listened to last night, there were some really impressive tracks, and the one disc we listened to most, I even own.  But nothing we listened to actually sounded like something that someone would sit down and listen to for pleasure.  And before I get flamed, let me explain. 

If I'm auditioning a system, I'm looking for emotion, as well as all the technical audiophile goodies.  Primarily though I want to know: "does this sound real?  does this sound like what i'd want to hear at a live performance?  does this convey the artist's emotion?".  If I'm not listening to something I like, and would want to hear in my car, or on my iPod, then I have a very hard time judging a system, or piece of gear.  So that was tough for me, but it was my own fault.  ;-)

I was impressed with the Manley amps' accuracy and tonal balance.  They were not a typical, soft tube amp at all.  And the Oracle piece being used as a preamp really seemed to be very transparent to my ears.  I wish we had a better preamp to compare the two digital front ends.  It was difficult to tell whether the Nixon DAC coming out, and going back in, was having an impact on the sound quality versus the Oracle piece straight out. 

Dinner was fabulous, and it was awesome meeting everyone new (to me), and seeing all the familiars. 

Thanks again Rich. 

Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: richidoo on August 26, 2007, 09:48:22 PM
More pics (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?action=gallery;su=user;cat=3;u=128) courtesy of Bigfish.   

Hantra, glad you could come, and I hope to get to listen with you more. Seems like everybody got something of value out of it, if only Ken's wifes fabulous Brownies. :)
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: RichardS on August 26, 2007, 10:01:43 PM
I've enjoyed hearing and reading everyone's impressions. Sometimes they jive with mine, and sometimes not so much. We all hear a little different and give more weight to different aspects of reproduction. Equipment isn't necessarily simply good or bad, but some may fit my priorities better, or my mood, or certain music --- weaknesses out-shined by strengths, or a better match.

Intellectually, I've always thought of myself liking a more mellow, smooth and laid back perspective from a system, probably because I like a lot of mellow (jazz and world) music and ballads, but in reality I find myself more enamored with a dynamic, weighty and detailed sound. I crave a solid and weighty bass foundation. Sometimes yeterday I'd see folks cringing -- finding a cable or piece of equipment piercingly bright, where to these 50+ year old ears it often sounded clear and extended. The one thing I can't live with though is excess bloom and ripeness through the lower mids.

Anyway, I liked the power, detail and dynamics of the SP Techs. They put out a lot of clean bass for a 'bookshelf' in this price range. The Legacys were more refined, relaxed and a bit easier on the ears, but less involving. The SPs sounded best with the $4K JPS speaker cables, as I think everyone agreed. Brought its strengths to a higher level. Very neutral and balanced cables.

But the other cables, though all different, weren't too far off the mark, and I thought any of them would do, except for the Realitys, which squashed the life in the music and shrunk the stage, reminding me of mp3 (yeah, I'm exaggerating). Just not a good match here. The Grovers were pretty nice, but maybe a little thin. Otherwise, no complaints. I actually liked the 'technicolor' sound of the Swords with the SPs (I should -- I own them) Super dynamic with great bass, but not as smooth or even as the others. The Au24 were pleasant enough but they didn't move me. A little recessed, reserved and lacking at the extremes.

The biggest cable surprise for me was with the Stereovox XV2 on the Oracle equipment. I've done a lot of A/Bing of digital cables and though I always hear differences, I've never heard as dramatic a difference as between the Stereovox and the JPS digital. I recently acquired a RWA-modded Musica that requires a BNC connection. I bought the Stereovox because it's a well-regarded BNC cable. It doesn't sound that bad into my Tact preamp, but not one of the better digital cables I've used either. But with the Oracles, it made the music light and thin with absolutely no foundation or power. It was a more dramatic change than changing speakers. I wish anyone who doubts differences in digital cables could have heard this. When we switched to the AP Oval cable, it brought with it volumes of much-needed weight.

I love my RWA Olive as a transport, but have to admit that the Oracle transport is in the next league. The transport/DAC pair impressed me as much as any digital I've heard for quite a while. They conveyed deep and detailed bass, a very expansive soundstage, spot-on tonality and a power, focus and weight to the music that sounded very 'real' to me. If only it stored my music collection and cost 75% less. Oh well, there's always trade-offs. The Nixon was musical, pleasant and nice, especially for the price, but just didn't involve me in the same way.

Well, that's about it for now...got to work tomorrow....
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: WEEZ on August 28, 2007, 11:38:21 AM
Interesting observations and commentary :).

It appears to be universal that the Reality cables were not favorites. Am I reading correctly that these were speaker cables, and not IC's? Were Reality IC's used at any point?

It also appears that the SP Tech speakers were deemed 'forward' by most. Were the Manley's the only amps used?

Thanks,

WEEZ
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Carlman on August 28, 2007, 12:07:19 PM
It appears to be universal that the Reality cables were not favorites. Am I reading correctly that these were speaker cables, and not IC's? Were Reality IC's used at any point?
It also appears that the SP Tech speakers were deemed 'forward' by most. Were the Manley's the only amps used?
Thanks,
WEEZ

Yes and yes, I did not bring my reality IC's... didn't think of that.  :duh 

The Manley's were the only amp on tap.  We had plenty of other gear, though... More than we could've compared over 2 days.... This comparison wasn't meant to deem anything a winner or loser... it wasn't a shoot-out, just a comparison... Rich is still dialing-in his system and what works best in his (complex) room.

I'm really happy Rich settled on the speaker cables he has now... The JPS work better than anything I've heard in his room so far.  The Reality's simply weren't a good match in this one instance... which surprised me given their tremendous detail, depth, and 'reality' in my system/room.

-C
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: WEEZ on August 28, 2007, 12:40:55 PM
Thanks for the clarification, Carl.  :oops: After re-reading the thread, I should have caught that myself.

Guess I'm surprised the Reality's didn't 'relax' the forwardness of the Timepieces....and still provide detail and ambience. Who-da-thunk-it?

WEEZ
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Bigfish8 on August 28, 2007, 05:05:22 PM
Guys:

I have read all the reviews from our G2G over at Rich's several times.  I have also gone back and conducted some research on past comments about SP Tech. Timepieces.  Everything I can read indicates that these speakers require lots of power with a minimum sized amp of 75 watts.  I recall the other evening the digital volume reading on the Oracle being in the range of 32 or 33 with the Timepieces versus around 15 when we switched to the Legacy's.  I realize I am the newbie here but the engineer in me tells me that this is an indication that significantly more power was required to drive the Timepieces.  Do you think the difference was 3 DB or possibly as much as 6 DB in power required from the amp (double to four times the required power)?  I am wondering if the Manley's were powerful enough or had enough headroom to make the Timepieces perform at their best?  In hindsight I wish I would have wrestled my big Odyssey Mono SEs to the G2G and I would not be asking this question.  Some of my comments are based on a gentlemen on AC that has a stereo Odyssey amp (which still is over 100 watts per channel) and he was biamping the Timepieces and still did not have enough power to properly drive them. 

Hopefully, at sometime in the future, we can have a G2G at my place where you will have the opportunity to hear the Timepieces again and this time driven by the big Odysseys.  I am not implying anything negative about the Manley's or about their capabilities.  Just based on what I have been reading they are probably not powerful enough for the Timepieces, especially in a room as large as Rich's.

Ken
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Carlman on August 28, 2007, 07:12:35 PM
Ken,
It's entirely possible that the SP Tech's need something different than the Manley amps at Rich's to sound best.  I thought about bringing my amp (McIntosh MC402) and C220 preamp to this gathering but I didn't have a chance to ask Rich if he'd like that or get myself organized enough to bring them if he wanted me to.  ;)  I would think 400wpc would be adequate power in Rich's room, not excessive, on the Timepieces...

I heard Lonewolf's Timepiece 2.0's connected to 2 Butler 2250 amps in a smaller room and it was better overall. 

I think you could be onto why things sounded the way they did...  And to me, potentially explains why the Reality's weren't a good match... They may have been the highest capacitance of the bunch, causing even more struggle from the amp-to-speaker at the peak of the Manley's current output, I could see how that would've changed the sound significantly.

So, are you volunteering to host the next gathering?! :)

-C
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: richidoo on August 28, 2007, 07:29:29 PM
Excellent question Ken, because low powered amps can indeed make a speaker sound like crap. ALl I know is that the Legacys are notorious current hog due to the low impedance dips at 30Hz and across 70-80 where it reaches 1.9 ohms. The SPs are nominal 8 ohms and relatively flat impedance curve from what I've read. Timepiece efficiency is 88dB?/W/m (8ohms) whereas Focus is 95dB/2.83V/m (4ohms) or 92dB/W/m. This efficiency difference explains the different volume settings.

I have found the Manley Snappers to be quite stout in the lower octaves where routine current demand is much higher than Timepiece would demand at those freqs or any freq due to Timepieces nice flat impedance curve, the mark of a well designed speaker from engineering POV. Jim's Adagio is also very flat 6? ohms and is one of my all time favorites. But Focus has multiple large drivers in series, which drives down the impedance, and given enough power, it is a huge deliciously natural and realistic bass. We didn;t get to play much bass heavy stuff on Sat, I never remember to pull out the Organ music or 1812. Maybe next time!

Snapper's output transformer is optimized for 5ohm load, where it makes 105W, quiet a lot of power for a tube amp. No clipping, no compression, nice detail and texture easily apparent, even on cannon shots played at SB's full volume. Thats well over 110dB. That same track (1812 overture)played at SB full volume was enough to cause thermal shutdown on Nuforce 9SE, rated at 160wpc with supposedly >1000W available into low impedances. But that is not a valid comparison due to Nuforce quirky behavior, just a real world observation.

Music we were listening to all night Saturday was moderate volume, uncompressed, mostly acoustic recordings with very low current demands. On the speaker cable comparisons the orchestral bass drum was probably the current peak of the night, and there was no compression or loss of incredible Timepiece detail at all. That said, they certainly could have sounded even better with more power - most speakers of all stripes do, because it allows faster delivery of current even when the current demanded does not approach the amp's maximum. It just sounds "easier." In high end audio we strive for the effortless presentation so the maximum current is much less important than the speed at which normal music power can be delivered. No doubt even my speakers would sound a lot better with 200 tube watts, or 400 SS watts, but then my budget would be different too :) Clean sounding tube watts are expensive!!

Since tubes clip far more gently than transistors, tube watts can feel like they are "more powerful" than SS watts, although there is no direct correlation or ratio, just a thumbnail observation based on the fact that normal music playing requires only small power, less than a couple watts. But peaks require more, and tubes handle overload peaks more gracefully than transistors so it seems like they can play louder on less watts without audible clipping noise, even if they are in fact overloading. Of course all this depends on the power supply being able to deliver current very quickly too, which is not always the case, and why it is important to have power reserves into lower impedenaces. Tubes are notoriously bad at increasing power into lower impedances, note Snapper's 100W>8ohms, and 105 watts>5ohms. Not exactly Krell. But good enough for the old man... hehehe

But much of the comments about the Timepieces made were not relating to peak power, and Snappers (IMO) have enough power to show off the general characteristic of the speaker which was evident even in low volume material. No compression or distortion of any kind was noticed by me, but I didn't pay close attention all night, only on the second half and the loud stuff at the end. :)

It would be awesome to hear your Odysseys on the Timepieces and maybe even on the Legacys in the future.
Great question!! I hope I didn't get anything too wrong or too far out or make it even more confusing. I hope others can jump in too.
Rich
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Carlman on August 28, 2007, 07:46:33 PM
Rich's comments makes me think more strongly about my original statement... Manleys + SP Tech's aren't as good of a match as Odyssey's  + SP Tech's... I gar-on-tee Ken put a lot of time and thought into selecting each piece to be in balance or trying to find that 'synergistic match'...  And I know Rich has been doing the same. 

Plopping someone's speakers into another guy's system is a tough situation.  Especially in this situation where Rich has poured a ton of time and energy into a specific recipe yielding the results he craves. 

I've heard older Odyssey monoblocks and they didn't sound as 'exciting' to me as the Manleys... Maybe the SP Tech's just don't need excitement?  I don't know.. just sayin'... ;)

-C
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: sp pres on August 28, 2007, 07:51:14 PM
Gentlemen,

My first time here so... Hello!  :D And best wishes to all.  Thanks Carl, for letting me in the door.

Thought I'd stop in and offer some possible insight regarding your experience with Ken's Timepieces.  If the Manleys are 100 w/ch (?), then all I would need to do some calculations would be the SPL and distance from the speakers the measurement was taken at.

Regardless of the exact numbers, I'd like to ask if you guys are familiar with what the results of amplifier clipping are?  I don't want to "talk down" to or offend anyone, but I'll take liberty and elaborate a little.

First, be it tube or solid state...ALL amplifiers turn musical signal peaks into "square waves" when they are driven into clipping.  Square waves examined under  under Fourier analysis (a mathmatical process) are equivalent to an infinite series of odd-ordered (1/3, 1/5, 1/7 etc.) harmonics with decreasing amplitude as the harmonic order increases, starting with the fundamental tone that has been "clipped."  This is a very ugly thing to hear.

Now...a fast rising transient can be clipped without the listener ever detecting it as such.  Only when severe clipping (i.e., gross distortion) occurs is the listener fully aware that the amplifier is being over driven.  Short duration clipping on the order of 1 or 2 millisecond long transients are virtually never detected by our hearing as "obvious" distortion.  Rather, as very slight clipping begins to occur (once every few seconds) the listener wil virtually never know - regardless of hearing accuity.  Such small amounts of clipping occur on virtually all systems of less than several hundred watts of power when playing back the wide dynamic range music being provided by todays digital formats.

It is not uncommon for a signal to be anywhare from 10 to 20dB higher in amplitude than the "average" signal level that our brains unerstand as "volume" or SPL.  10dB peaks require the amplifier to put out 10 times the power as that required to achieve the average volume.  A 20dB peak would require that same amp to put out 100 times the power!  So...say your cruising along at 10 watts average power and a 20dB signal comes along (remember...it only lasts maybe for 1/1000th of a second).  Now that same amp has to produce 1000 watts to keep from clipping that signal.  You can see where I'm going with this. 8)  Fortunately, 20dB peaks aren't really all that common, but 10dB ones certainly are - very common in fact. 

Now, your having a little rave and you swap out one speaker (95dB SPL @ 2.83V/1M) for another and the new speaker is about 10dB less efficient/sensitive (85dB SPL @ 2.83V/1M) than the other.  There goes 10dB of amplifier headroom right out the window.  Oh...and lest you start comparing impedance curves, the 8-Ohm rating/output voltage ability of the amp is all that really matters.  A 1 millisecond wide peak is equivalent to 1/2 cycle of a 500Hz tone.  Few 4-Ohm rated speakers are actually 4-Ohms at 500Hz - they're usually closer to 8-Ohms (even ours).  A 2mS wide transient is equivalent to 1/2 cycle at 250Hz - still out of the "low Z" region (bass) for most speakers.  In any case, the issue of clipping is far more voltage dependant than current and hence sensitivity of each speaker at 2.83V is more indicative of the difference between models than their actual 1 watt rating.  Even if we compare watts to watts, in this case that means we loose "only" 7dB of headroom.  Ask any amp manufacturer if he would like "only" another 7dB of headroom in his amp at no extra cost. :rofl:

So now you're not clipping once every few seconds - you're clipping maybe several times a second.  Still short duration pulses - but far more frequent.  Now many more of those "odd-ordered" harmonics begin to "splash" all over your nice clean "average level" signals.  What do you suppose that would sound like?  That's right...it creates a presentation that is somewhat bright and forward.  Now, how much the more so would this be evident in a speaker that is KNOWN for being extremely revealing and offers a flat response out to about 24KHz?

Then, you put the original speaker back in the system and remember...it's at least 6dB more sensitive.  All of a sudden that bright, forward quality is gone and a "laid back" sound emerges.  Ooops!  Crap!!! AFTER we turn the volume back down, that is.  Gotta remember to turn that knob down first next time.  Thank God we didn't blow that higher sensitivity speaker. 

Yeah... that's a real good indicator as to just how much you were pushing that amp.  But... seeing that you guys learned that lesson many years ago, that event never took place.  Instead, you're an experienced audiophile now so you always turn the volume down first before you change anything in the system.  And in so doing...you don't have that blast or ear shattering volume to make you realize just how hard you were really pushing that amp.  That darned lower sensitivity speaker is just too bright and forward sounding - that's the problem.  Sorry, just not my cup of tea.

NOW...you know why I have recommended a pretty big amp for the Timepieces for years now.  Without that, they often get the blame.  I'm just thankful you were using a tube amp with it's "softer" clipping characteristics or all of you would have run screaming out of the room.

Sorry, don't mean to offend anyone - that's just been my experience with our speakers on many occasions.  I can't stand to even listen to the TPs on less than about 150w/ch of SS amplification.  100 watts of tube power will work...but back off on your SPL expectations.  Either that...or sit closer.  :roll:

Oh well, maybe next time. 8)

Take care,
-Bob
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Carlman on August 28, 2007, 08:09:16 PM
Hey Bob, thanks and welcome to AN...

I don't think we were clipping and we did do SPL readings to make sure we were pretty close when swapping cables and speakers around... Plus, Rich pretty much covered that the material was mostly easy stuff. 

Please keep in mind this wasn't a shoot-out, just a buncha guys playing around with gear... The SP's sounded fine to me, just not a good match in this system/room with minimal setup.  I know Shane mentioned there was some attention to setup but... It takes me weeks, sometimes months to get speakers where they sound best in a room.  So, they were essentially 'plopped down' in my opinion.

The SP's enjoyed the room they had to work with... and at about 20' away, they sounded really good... I'd love to hear these speakers in a huge room just for the fun of it... I bet they'd be great in a ballroom... just room-filling dynamics for all... :)

Speaker ratings are weird... I had 91db efficient speakers before and 400wpc was just right for them... and now I've got 89db and I feel like 500 would be better...  :lol:  We'll see what happens.  More clean power is always better... But in a casual gathering of hobbyists, we do what we can.

-C
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Hantra on August 28, 2007, 08:33:06 PM
low powered amps can indeed make a speaker sound like crap.

Affirmative  :idea:

No doubt even my speakers would sound a lot better with 200 tube watts, or 400 SS watts,

Ohh how I wish we could get a McIntosh over to Rich's place, and not tell him if it was tubed or solid state.   O:)

but then my budget would be different too :) Clean sounding tube watts are expensive!!

 :rofl:  This from a guy with $3,200 speaker wires. 


I think we may be onto something with regard to the SP's.  More power would certainly relax things, as paradoxical as that may sound. 

Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: lonewolfny42 on August 28, 2007, 10:17:03 PM
Quote
More power would certainly relax things, as paradoxical as that may sound. 
Thats true B....and thats what the TP's demand....and why I use two Butler amps...800 watts in mono form.
I'm sure it sounds like a lot....but after hearing so may different speakers, that extra power always comes in handy....its better to have more than less on quiet a few speakers...
Too bad there were no MAC's there.... :(

              Chris
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: richidoo on August 29, 2007, 08:17:04 AM
Well this is EXACTLY WHY....


God invented tomorrow.  hehe

With Ken's continued enthusiasm, I'm hope we'll get another chance to hear Timepiece!! I hope it's soon. Then I'll bring the Snappers, Ken can bring Oddyssey, and somebody can bring the BIG iron and we'll see if there's a noticeable difference. I will offer to help Ken move the Timepieces with my minivan. I know it is a big hassle but there was tremendous interest in hearing the speakers this month, so maybe that will carry over again. Timepiece Audition part two, "Unlimited Power!" I would love to put my Snappers up against MC402, bring it on, sucker!  :rofl:  I'll even bias the tubes for the occasion ....   ;) Maybe I'll get some oscilliscope software to view the amps' outputs across the speaker terminals to see if any of the amps are indeed clipping as suspected.

All that said,  :roll:  I will reiterate my impression of the Timepieces after festering in my mind for a few days. I am thinking seriously about making changes to my system based on the midrange clarity that they gave. I never heard that compromised at all due to amp distortion, and I have a rather tender ear when it comes to midrange tone and microdynamics. I was very impressed with the sound of Miles trumpet and the details of recorded ambience laid down by the Timepieces. With RichardS' baby blue "Sword" speaker cables I heard perfect trumpet and clarinet sound back deep in the stage of a wailing orchestra that certainly put some heat on the amps. Subtle differences in speaker cables were easily heard at peak volumes. That is not the sign of a clipping amplifier. After hearing Timepiece (and WATT/Puppy 8 in same week), I want that midrange clarity for my own system, but I gotta have tube amps or something of equivalent emotional transparency.

I venture my opinion that the sound of ultra clear treble of the Manleys and other modern PP tube designs is different than most SS amps, and is one reason many people prefer powerful tube amps. SS treble is usually not clear enough for me. I like the refined, extended treble detail of a well designed tube amp. The waveguide tweeter design of the Timepiece is very revealing of treble and I assume was voiced to sound ideal with SS amplifiers. Using a tube amp that is not your typical rolled-off antique design might be something that just doesn't sound good on Timepieces due to their unique tweeter design, even though it sounds fine on my Legacys with ribbon tweeters, BG Z7 ribbons, and on Quad 2805 - the only other speakers on which I have heard them played. Actually treble did sound like shit on Infinity CMMD tweeter, but that's a $150 speaker.

I'm even willing to believe that until I heard high treble of the Snappers on the ultra revealing Timepieces I never knew how offensive the amps sounded. I'm willing to accept any explanation, but also not willing to rule any out based on textbook estimations - the experiment rules. I would just like to understand what's really happening, and why a few people with ears I trust all said the same thing about speakers that have such a strong following. As I said, I'm in the speaker market again, and SP is certainly a candidate. If SS amp makes the difference, I wanna hear that!! SS power is usually cheaper than tubes so I'm all for it if the sound is there. But I also want to shield the Snappers from being blamed for insufficient power and clipping under normal use unless that is shown by measurement to be true. Then I will jump right on board. I lived with clipping tube amp for a long time and I know what it sounds like. I did not hear any trace of that with Timepieces/Snappers.

It is great to see you here Bob, I hope you will make a regular appearance. No need to worry about offending anyone here. Congrats on your great design and success. I am really looking forward to hearing it again, "as the designer intended."
Rich
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Hantra on August 29, 2007, 09:29:18 AM
Quote
I gotta have tube amps or something of equivalent emotional transparency

That's precisely why I went through 3 dozen amplifiers in the past 3 years.  I'm looking for emotion.  I used to think emotion would come from a smoothness, but I was just an amateur audiophile back then.  I realized on my quest that emotion (from hifi) comes from true transparency and dynamic contrasts.  That's when I found the 402.  When I had the opportunity to upgrade to the 501, I was doubtful it would be much better, but what the heck. 

I'll be glad to bring those for the comparison.  Monoblocks shouldn't be compared with stereo amps.   :rofl:

But I HAVE to bring some music this time.   :duh
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: jrebman on August 29, 2007, 09:50:23 AM
that emotion (from hifi) comes from true transparency and dynamic contrasts.

I think so too.  That's in essence what I heard with the Kharma speakers I mentioned in the "Humility" thread.

Update on the Reality cables:  I've been back and forth with Gregg a couple of times and we both agree that with my speakers so close together, a still not broken in amp, etc., that I really need to wait until they are 10 feet apart (instead of 6) and have some more time on eveything.  However, for about an hour or so for each of the past couple evenings I've been able to play the system pretty cranked up and they sound significantly better now.  It almost sounds like there was a clog in the line that needed to be pushed out, which I know from an engineering/physics perspective is nonsense, but something has changed, and for the better.  Cymbals are getting crisper, voices are moving forward to where they are supposed to be (though not quite there), and overall things are starting to sound very interesting.  Gregg said that even though he burns the cables in, it still probably takes another day or two to really open up, and I don't even think I have 20 hours on these yet.  I'm going to do my best to not be the impatient audiophile here and wait until I have things properly setup before making any final judgments.  The one thing I feel pretty confident in right now is that the Grovers and the Realitys seem like they could be a good match for each other in my system.

-- Jim
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Carlman on August 29, 2007, 09:57:21 AM
That's precisely why I went through 3 dozen amplifiers in the past 3 years.  I'm looking for emotion.  I used to think emotion would come from a smoothness, but I was just an amateur audiophile back then.  I realized on my quest that emotion (from hifi) comes from true transparency and dynamic contrasts.  That's when I found the 402.  When I had the opportunity to upgrade to the 501, I was doubtful it would be much better, but what the heck. 

I'll be glad to bring those for the comparison.  Monoblocks shouldn't be compared with stereo amps.   :rofl:

But I HAVE to bring some music this time.   :duh

Man you're making me feel bad... ;)  I had a stack of CD's... we listened to 1 from that stack... I couldn't find my Alice in Chains live album... or my Pearl Jam... but they're around... and will soon be in a box. :(

Please bring the 501's... I agree we should have them battle "mono a mono"  :lol:

The 402 (along with the rest of my big rig) will be boxed up for a long time soon. :(

-C
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: richidoo on August 29, 2007, 11:09:54 AM
I don't think emotion comes from smoothness either, but from low distortion, accurate tone, wide dynamic range, macro and micro. Hear exactly what the artist is doing and feel as he did. That's why I like tubes, I can hear that better than any SS amp I have yet heard. :) But not with that "tubey" smooth obscuring sound most people think of as tube amp sound. I didn't think that the Timepieces sounded tubey or overly smooth with Snappers.

Monads might wanna get in on this monoblock rumble too? haha
Guess I better run some more dedicated lines.
Rich
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: bpape on August 29, 2007, 12:06:58 PM
What you're describing is exactly why I stick with a BIG solid state amp and a tube preamp.  Dynamics, guts, solidity, etc. from the amp - tone, a hint of sweetness, and a slightly more rounded edge of sound to space between sounds.

I've been all both ways a few times and only been happy once - and that wasn't mine.  Berning pre, Futterman OTL's, driving Quads.

Bryan
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Hantra on August 29, 2007, 05:11:21 PM
Monads might wanna get in on this monoblock rumble too? haha
Guess I better run some more dedicated lines.

The Monads are one of the best amplifiers I have ever heard.  I wish they were 500 watts, but they are really, really good.  I think the Monads will make any speaker sound really good.

Likewise, I wish the Halcros were 500+.  They're not.  So I get my 500 watts from the McIntosh which is as close to those as I've heard.

Tonight I heard the MC1201's on some old school Carver AL-III speakers, just for fun.  I was floored at how good these speakers were from top to midbass.  I seriously have not heard a better ribbon besides the one I own.  This doesn't really have a point, nor is it on topic.  But it was the most audio fun I have had in months.  I could easily be happy with those speakers, and a couple subs.  Of course we were using $55,000 worth of gear to drive them too.   :rofl:
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: richidoo on August 29, 2007, 08:33:43 PM
Sounds awesome Brandon. Where did you hear those Big Macs? Your bedroom system?   :rofl: Please don't bring those to the amp rumble...   :shock:  hehe 

Here's another twist on the system synergy theme that is quickly growing in this thread. Our first G2G with this group long time ago was an amp comparo, and Monads came over. I thought the 402 and Snappers were better on my speakers. I really wanted to love the Monads after having just met BK and corresponding with him about our trumpet playing schooldays, I really dig him and what he's doing. But they just didn't go well with my speakers, at least on that day. It would be nice to hear them setup with a knowing eye, maybe I overlooked something, I know I had lesser SCs then and I forgot to take the spikes so I had them resting on wooden blocks for cooling. Not optimal by any means. On Shanes Usher BE20s they sound great, totally different. It is such a weird thing. You want an engine to be an engine, to perform the same no matter where you put it. But the mysteries of electromechanical subtleties prevent that from being true no matter how much we want it to be.
Rich
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Hantra on August 29, 2007, 08:39:31 PM
Sounds awesome Brandon. Where did you hear those Big Macs? Your bedroom system?   :rofl: Please don't bring those to the amp rumble...

I heard them over at my McIntosh guy's place.  And don't worry.  Even if he would let those out of his sight, I don't have the towing package on the BMW.  Those bastards are close to 200 pounds each.  [-(
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: richidoo on August 30, 2007, 06:33:27 AM
 :lol:  Ive seen the pics. Glad to know they're not just mock ups. haha
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: stereofool on August 30, 2007, 10:15:53 AM
Hey...I saw those monsters in-person...they make the 501's look like small digital amps  :shock:!!!
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Hantra on August 30, 2007, 10:38:50 AM
Hey...I saw those monsters in-person...they make the 501's look like small digital amps  :shock:!!!

That was my exact thought when we hooked them up beside the 501's.  Suddenly I feel. . . inadequate. . .  8-[
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: richidoo on August 30, 2007, 01:10:58 PM
I heard Snappers on Carl's Piega C8s today, which are similar sensitivity as Timepieces. Switching to Carl's MC402 showed a very big improvement in tone, clarity, control, with expected loss of air. We discussed what air really is, and had some interesting ideas, but nothing conclusive. hahahaa   So now I can understand how hundreds of watts of power are reasonable requirement with Timepieces and other speakers of lower sensitivity. My speakers are more efficient, so maybe "getting by" with the Snappers, but some of the constriction I heard on Carls C8s with Snappers (which vanished with the 402) is also evident on the Legacys on louder moments, so likely the Legacys need every bit of their 300WPC@4ohms rating to be fully satiated. The new BIS label Beethoven 9th was routinely drawing 200+ watts on the Mac power meters, and never went below 40watts on the loud sections. It was a great  :shock: learning experience. Once again, thanks Carl!
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Hantra on August 30, 2007, 01:46:58 PM
Be careful!  Power corrupts.   :-#
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Bigfish8 on August 30, 2007, 02:05:13 PM
Hey Guys:

I going to post a portion of a reply from Bob Smith on AC today:  Regarding amps, regardless what my wife says...BIGGER is better.  Give me big-big...all the way BIG!  As big as you can afford - and FAST (transient capability) - and with a high Damping Factor.  But only if you want...smooth, relaxed highs, effortless midrange, powerful and tight bass, unlimited resolution and detail as well as a totally natural and organic sound overall.

Heck, I am just get started and you guys are making my Odyssey Mono SEs at 200 watts per channel seem awfully small. 

Hey, Honey, I want a bigger one!

Have a great Holiday Weekend fellas! 

Ken
Title: Re: G2G at Rich's 8/25
Post by: Carlman on August 30, 2007, 05:16:21 PM
Thanks, Ken... we're all learning as we go... and of course, feeding our Nervosa... ;)

-C