AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Speakers => Topic started by: James Edward on January 30, 2021, 03:37:11 PM
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Hello all-
I’ve come to the realization that I want more bass. I’m using open baffle speakers, and other than deep bass, I love the sound.
My intuition and reading tell me that sealed subs are better for music only systems; I have a separate home theater system and know that some extra boom, overhang, and higher Q numbers are more fun there.
I’ve pretty much settled on this sub for my music only system- https://hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15mk2.html
I’m less interested in sub recommendations than in your experiences integrating a sub into a music only system. I have an integrated amp with NO bass management, so I will be using the ‘REL’ way of connecting to the sub- just extra wires from the speaker terminals to the sub high level inputs. I will be running the speakers full range.
Due to my domestic situation, a second sub will not happen; I know that is more of an ideal, but as people say- ‘it is what it is’.
Any experiences appreciated.
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I’m replying to my thread with a theoretical question that popped into my head last night. I’m using open baffle speakers, in which 50% of the bass radiates to the rear of the speaker. They are about 44” from the wall behind them. It is in that corner space I plan to place the sub.
Am I correct in thinking that the back wave of the speaker might cancel the output of the sub? I’m thinking that they would be out of phase with one another if placed as described above.
I will certainly be corresponding with Spatial and Hsu regarding this. I may need to rethink sub placement, and anyone that’s been to my place will know I’m going to need a shoehorn to do so.
Or maybe I’m just thinking too much. But it seems a valid concern.
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The most important thing to remember is that the upper crossover point on the sub needs to be "below" the start of the roll-off point of the speaker's woofer. Most people set that too high. Take a look at the typical graph below. This shows the individual speaker measurements and the total resulting frequency (red line) as they sum each other. You've probably seen this in Stereophile many times. I think it depicts what I said above rather well. You can set the sub crossover lower than you think, then adjust the volume of the sub until things start to gel and balance out. You will likely tweak the crossover and volume and sub phase over the next few days/weeks using different recordings until it all balances out to your ear. Of course, using a meter will help, but your ear is the final judge.
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0921/3560/files/Pinnacle-Curves-Smoothed-v1.jpg?v=1589566591)
Next, putting a sub in the corner is what you may read in many articles about set up, because you have reinforcement from 3 surfaces ... the 2 walls and floor. That works fine for movies with dinosaur stomps but not as well for music. I found pulling the sub out into the room and placing it next to the speaker works best for music. It might have to be turned up louder there but it will sound like it integrates better in that position.
Third, I also believe in taking away all boundaries helps, even the floor. For instance, I have my down firing sub placed upside down with the feet pointing up. This raises the sub's speaker off the floor. You can do the same with front firing subs by placing them on some kind of support stand or sturdy cement block. Getting it up off the floor works best for me and my panel speakers. The sub sounds "faster" and integrates better.
Most of all, experiment. I heard in one instance someone say to place the sub where you normally sit, up on the chair, then get on your hands and knees and move around to likely placement positions and listen with your ears. If you hear boom then that's not the right place for the sub. Somewhere it will all click in. Then move the sub to that location and begin dialing it in. Ingenious idea and it could work for you because it identifies room nodes better than the usual trial and error.
It will take time to dial in so listen to plenty of music and have fun with it.
Good luck.
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Thanks Bob, it’s all starting to come together. Your info on sub settings also plays into what someone on another forum said- as long as the sub and main speaker are outputting different frequencies, phase cancellation shouldn’t be an issue.
As far as corner placement goes, I’m going to have to hope that the many adjustments on the sub will mitigate the lack of ideal placement. My system is thoroughly domesticated in the living room, so placement options are limited. A fireplace in the middle of everything further diminishes my options. The good news is it sounds pretty good regardless.
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The sub arrived today. I’m not doing any placement or control settings tonight, that’s what tomorrow is for.
Even so, my biggest concern turns out to be no concern at all. I was afraid of boomy bass- I couldn’t live with that. Right now I’ve got the Q setting at .5, which is midpoint, and there is zero overhang. I’m sure getting a sealed sub was the right move.
Thanks Bob and Tom for the setup guides. More to come...
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The sub arrived today. I’m not doing any placement or control settings tonight, that’s what tomorrow is for.
Even so, my biggest concern turns out to be no concern at all. I was afraid of boomy bass- I couldn’t live with that. Right now I’ve got the Q setting at .5, which is midpoint, and there is zero overhang. I’m sure getting a sealed sub was the right move.
Thanks Bob and Tom for the setup guides. More to come...
Well, good news so far. Did you get the Hsu and what model? Also, maybe some pics..
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This is the model Hsu- as far as I can see, it’s the only sealed model they make- https://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15mk2.html
I’m actually shocked at how tight it is- as I said, I set the controls for the heart of the sun- sorry, that’s a song. I set the controls for basic operation- 0 phase, .5 Q, volume at 12 o’clock, Eq 1, crossover at 40 hz. If it sounds this good already, I can’t wait for a more dialed in sound.
Pictures- I will see what I can do. I’ve not had much luck here with that...
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This is the model Hsu- as far as I can see, it’s the only sealed model they make- https://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15mk2.html
I’m actually shocked at how tight it is- as I said, I set the controls for the heart of the sun- sorry, that’s a song. I set the controls for basic operation- 0 phase, .5 Q, volume at 12 o’clock, Eq 1, crossover at 40 hz. If it sounds this good already, I can’t wait for a more dialed in sound.
Pictures- I will see what I can do. I’ve not had much luck here with that...
Very nice, Jim. Black or Rosenut? I met Dr Hsu once or twice at shows or CES. Nice guy. As to the photos, I am an Apple user. I was reading about photo formats...jpg vs jpeg vs heic. When I search the web for album/cd pics...usually on the Amazon site...I can easily post them here. If I try and post from my Apple pics from my devices, I can’t. I used to think it was file size, but maybe more likely it’s the format. Can Jeremy...anyone...provide an answer?
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I went with black- it’s going to be in a sort of dead space corner. Now that it’s here and I see the size of it, a 150.00 upcharge to wrap it in veneer does not seem at all unreasonable. If I knew with 100 per cent certainty at order time that it was staying in my living room, even in a corner, I would have gone for it; truthfully, I thought I might be disappointed- and it would go to my HT room. But no, it is staying with the two channel setup.
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Loving this. Setup is interesting. Found rattles in my house with low frequency sweeps that needed addressing- 20 hz excites a lot of things.
Not that it matters to any users- I know systems are all different, but here are my settings with the Hsu ULS-15 Mk2, and Spatial M3 Turbo S mains:
40 hz crossover- 50 hz brought in slight congestion, not boom, but a tad congested.
Eq1 listening mode- this brings the sub down to 20 hz response.
Volume at 12 o’clock.
Q control at .5- this is midway between what is considered overdamped (.3) and underdamped (.7). I haven’t played with this at all since putting the sub in place. I can’t imagine this sub being any tighter, but it warrants playing with after I get a better feel for the sub.
Phase 180 degrees- my biggest surprise- in my home theater system I could not for the life of me distinguish between 0 degrees and 180. In my music system, there is a clear distinction- it wasn’t bad in the 0 degree position, but 180 locked it in- sharpened things ever so slightly.
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I feel I should add one last thing- this is not my first relatively higher end sub. About 10 years ago I had a REL Britannia B2, and I never could get it to ‘disappear’. It was a passive radiator alignment- which is considered ported but just a little different in implementation.
Everything was different then- speaker mains, amp, etc., so I can’t draw any firm conclusions, but if I were getting a sub for music, I’d stick with a sealed alignment. The only constant is where the sub is placed.
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I’m replying to my thread with a theoretical question that popped into my head last night. I’m using open baffle speakers, in which 50% of the bass radiates to the rear of the speaker. They are about 44” from the wall behind them. It is in that corner space I plan to place the sub.
Am I correct in thinking that the back wave of the speaker might cancel the output of the sub? I’m thinking that they would be out of phase with one another if placed as described above.
I will certainly be corresponding with Spatial and Hsu regarding this. I may need to rethink sub placement, and anyone that’s been to my place will know I’m going to need a shoehorn to do so.
Or maybe I’m just thinking too much. But it seems a valid concern.
Once again I am replying to my thread- if you read my ‘sub settings’ portion of this, I mentioned that the 180 degree phase setting snapped things into focus. This may be a consequence of having the sub behind my open baffle speaker. Both are facing forward. Just thinking out loud here. See my upcoming thread in the music section asking for low bass music to have fun with.
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When you think you've got it locked in ... try raising it off the floor a foot or so. Cement blocks or something similarly solid works best (but look ugly unless you drape them with fabric or something). You may have to raise the volume a bit but probably no other adjustment. Then let me know how much better it disappears.
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Jim, is it a front firing sub ? If floor firing lift off ground Try setting sub crossover at -3db setting of main speakers. This may sound strange but gove it a try. When music is playing crawl around the room and find the loudest bass. That is where the sub should go. Enjoy !!!
charles
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If you're connecting your sub from your preamp out, you may want to try one of these....when they become available again or something like it
https://www.newark.com/mcm-custom-audio/50-8394/line-level-volume-control-rohs/dp/79X4195#
https://www.neobits.com/mcm_electronics_50_8394_50_8394_ir_remote_volume_p11504678.html?atc=gbs
Some songs have more or less bass output then others. With this, you can adjust the subwoofer volume to your liking from via remote control
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40 hz crossover- 50 hz brought in slight congestion, not boom, but a tad congested.
Most likely because at a 50Hz crossover point there is an bunch of signal that is getting played through both the subs and the mains and since they are not placed in different spots in the room you are getting time alignment errors between the sound emanating from both speakers. With the crossover set lower the natural fall off of the main speakers is preventing "cross-contamination" with the sub. Since the main speakers are playing full range you want to make sure that the subs are only doing what the mains cannot and not replicating anything that they alradey handle.
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I am using the speaker level inputs as in the ‘REL way’ of doing things, so I can’t do what Emil suggested- however, some other woofers do allow on the fly adjustments via a phone app. I could see this being especially useful where there is shared duty between HT and music. Luckily I’m just doing music with this sub.
As far as the -3 db point of my speakers, the manufacturer specifies 32 hz. This may be so in a perfect room with ideal placement, neither of which I have. When I use my sound check cd, I come in closer to 40 hz. So I basically am doing what Charles suggests. It is a front firing sub.
To further elaborate on the crossover point- the Hsu uses a 24db/octave slope- this makes it a pretty clean break at the crossover point. Other manufacturers may do the same- I don’t know.
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Appears you have a good handle on the set up. If you can have the centerline of the driver 22% of your ceiling height off the floor even better. Try it.
charles
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Not a technical post- but man, ‘The Bach Gamut’ with Virgil Fox Reference Recording has taken on new life. It’s true most music doesn’t have much content below ~ 32 Hz, but this album does. My dog was just looking around barking, for no apparent reason other the house vibrating. In a very good way!
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Not a technical post- but man, ‘The Bach Gamut’ with Virgil Fox Reference Recording has taken on new life. It’s true most music doesn’t have much content below ~ 32 Hz, but this album does. My dog was just looking around barking, for no apparent reason other the house vibrating. In a very good way!
Glad the Hsu is working out well, and hopefully, your dog is able to enjoy music at higher frequencies 🎼
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Not a technical post- but man, ‘The Bach Gamut’ with Virgil Fox Reference Recording has taken on new life. It’s true most music doesn’t have much content below ~ 32 Hz, but this album does. My dog was just looking around barking, for no apparent reason other the house vibrating. In a very good way!
A good one Try Gladiator sound track as well as the Thin Red Line Harry Pearson would play them for us to show off the Bass.
charles