Author Topic: Building an Audio PC  (Read 13386 times)

Offline Carlman

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Re: Building an Audio PC
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2010, 11:02:48 AM »
Awesome!  Thank you for an excellent explanation, TMAZZ!
I'm sure it will help many understand that yet again, there is no 1 right answer.. as in all of life, it's a set of compromises that yields a product.. and in the end you have to decide whether you're satisfied or need more.

I do plan on some transport experimentation (PC vs. Unix vs. USB vs. PCI etc.) as things shape up.  My friend Nick is building a PC.. and I'd also like to use one that uses a linear power supply instead of the standard switcher.  The little PC's I'm looking at require lower power than the standard.  So, that might clean up a little... also strategic use of card placement, case design, ERS, and mu metal might help isolate things further.  My first goal is to understand the principle design characteristics of each component...

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline tmazz

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Re: Building an Audio PC
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2010, 11:41:24 AM »
Those switching supplies are deadly when it comes to noise. My son only has one A/C circuit in his room (not his wouldn't pass code today, but that is how the houses were wired back in the 50s). I got him a PS Audio Noise Harvester to try to clean up the feed to his stereo the best we can and you would not believe how that little thing goes crazy when he switches the computer on. Without the PC it blinks at the rate of one flash every 1-2 seconds. Flip on the PC and the flash rate goes up to about 10 per second! I've never seen a linear PC power supply,(then again I never really looked for one either),  that sounds like a good idea for a music server.

When you say you are using a PC as a transport do you mean that you are playing CDs through it in real time or ripping the CDs to the hard drive and playing back those files. One of the big advantages of using a PC as a music server is that by not trying to read the optical disc in real time you have the opportunity to get better error correction and therefore a cleaner signal.If you are playing CDs in real time it does not surprise me than audiophile dedicated transport could do a better job in that regard. The transport was of course optimized for realtime playback and will (or should?) have better mechanical isolation than a $30 stock computer CD drive. However the CD drive can produce excellent results when not saddled with the obligation to perform in realtime. Optical disc are notoriously unstable in their dynamic rotation introducing all kinds of data errors that the CD playback system has to either figure out how to correct or replace with an interpolated value. I think we can all agree that the less number of times you are forced to interpolate (guess) the better your source will sound. When you are not operating in real time the CD drive will have the time to go back and re-read any bad sectors and try to get a better read on the corrupt data. With less unrecoverable data you need less interpolation and get a more accurate reproduction. So, a cheap drive can perform very well if given the time to run more complex error correction, but if it as to get it right in realtime, an audiophile designed transport will have a better (and more expensive) designed that  will help lower those errors before they ssrt through better structural design.

In the case of a PC drive the unit will, for the vast majority of people spend very little time playing back music so there was no real reason for the design engineers to build in (or pay for) a level of structural integrity that ill be used only by a small percentage of owners and even within that small group, how many of them will have the system, the time , or the inclination to worry about the sound quality of their PC's sound system.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 11:47:58 AM by tmazz »
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Building an Audio PC
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2010, 01:40:15 PM »
My friend with the modified mac mini made an external regulated linear power supply for it.

Can foobar play a CD live from the optical drive as Windows Media player does? That would be a nice feature for us music lovers who are not enraged if 1 bit is missing. Slim software could not do that. Requires ripping a CD to library and scanning before it can be played. A 5 second buffer would be acceptable to sooth the perfectionists' outrage. Or just let unreadable sectors pass (muted.) If you want perfect, rip it. If you want it right now, accept the errors.

A great PCI sound card like Lynx or RME, or CardD, etc, will have engineered the power supply on the card so the sensitive chips are well served, even by a standard PC smps. But every change is audible, everything helps. You'll hear less improvement going linear with one of these cards, compared to a $200 hifi wannabe in a gamer's box. But the good stuff can be quite expensive as we all know!

Offline Carlman

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Re: Building an Audio PC
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2010, 04:46:01 AM »
My interest is only in building a computer that runs a player, like Foobar.  The music files are ripped and located on a server outside the room.

My goal is to get bit perfect, jitter free output from it... without buying a $600-700 sound card if possible.  Buying a Lynx is like buying JPS Aluminata.. It'll be perfect but costly.

I'm thinking I can do it, we'll see.
I really enjoy listening to music.

Bigfish8

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Re: Building an Audio PC
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2010, 05:11:27 AM »
My interest is only in building a computer that runs a player, like Foobar.  The music files are ripped and located on a server outside the room.

My goal is to get bit perfect, jitter free output from it... without buying a $600-700 sound card if possible.  Buying a Lynx is like buying JPS Aluminata.. It'll be perfect but costly.

I'm thinking I can do it, we'll see.

Carl:

I think we have a similar goal and I know I am not going to spend a bunch of money for a sound card.  It would seem to be going down a similar highway to the one I traveled with the Modded Transporter.  Before I would do that I would run ethernet cable to the Touch and feed a DAC by Spif.

Ken

Offline hometheaterdoc

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Re: Building an Audio PC
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2010, 06:14:12 AM »
There's no free lunch...

I'm all about finding the diamonds in the rough or trying to do something on the cheap if it is the same result or similar...

I've had dozens of consumer level cards here for spdif out.... most recently the Asus one that stereophile or one of them raved about....  the Lynx with JPS UC2 custom dongle was better... better detail retrieval, lower noise, more natural and real sounding.

$500 MSRP for a top shelf card is not what I consider outrageous pricing... not everyone will agree... I'd love to not have to pay it.  I'd love to find an even better performer.  So far, I haven't been successful.  The HiFace USB to BNC dongle is convenient, but the Lynx is better...

I hope folks realize that when I post an impression it's an honest opinion based on my experience, not motivated by any financial bias.  But just in case, I don't sell Lynx sound cards, nor do I sell any of the others that I've tried.  I'm purely an audiophile consumer in that area paying retail prices like everyone else.  Just sharing my experiences.  

If you do find something better for less, by all means, post about it here.  I want it! :)



« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 06:42:35 AM by hometheaterdoc »
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Bigfish8

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Re: Building an Audio PC
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2010, 10:09:26 AM »
Shane and Others:

Yes, I am really confused - of course this is no new news!  On the Computer Audiophile Site and on other forums folks are raving about running USB or USB to Spidif Convertors to DACS.  They are using Foobar or ITunes or something else on their computers as music software but I do not get the feeling they are using hi dollar aftermarket sound cards.  I know I am not totally on another planet as I have talked with 3 people that have converted to computer audio in the last year.  One of them is using DACs that cost $3000+ and I know he is connecting via Firewire. 

I really am trying to understand this before I jump in and wish I had waited or done something else.

Ken

Offline richidoo

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Re: Building an Audio PC
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2010, 11:08:02 AM »
Ken, you are wise to attempt to understand the problems inherent with computer audio before buying equipment. There are a lot of opinions and well marketed solutions.

There is a lot of good reading about jitter on the internet. After a while it will make your head spin and you will be looking for clocking solution that "just does it." And you are in luck, there are many competing solutions, and more on the way. 

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diginterf1_e.html (5 parts)
http://www.empiricalaudio.com/computer-audio/technical-papers/
http://www.stereophile.com/features/1208jitter/
http://stereophile.com/reference/1290jitter/  Note the date: 20 years ago!
http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1093jitter/
http://www.stereophile.com/features/368/
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/What-does-jitter-sound
http://www.esstech.com/PDF/sabrewp.pdf
http://www.tctechnologies.tc/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29&Itemid=28 (see white paper link)

After all that, you still need a solution in a good looking box with superior analog design, good human interface and software design and reliability, and a reasonable price. With source component being so important to our pursuit of audio excellence, this topic is very important, and timely considering all the new super-DACs emerging now to solve some of these problems. I don't know of any current offerings that are a slam dunk fix for all the problems in computer audio when price remains a consideration. Pro audio is far ahead of audiophiles in this area of high quality digital audio products and research.

Bigfish8

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Re: Building an Audio PC
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2010, 11:56:00 AM »
Thanks Rich!

Okay, if I understand the basics a clock signal from the PC will be embedded in the audio signal it sends to the DAC.  You will likely hear this "jitter" unless you process it out of the signal from the computer with something like the Lynx PCI Card?  Damn!  Convenience certainly comes at a high cost!

Ken

Offline TomS

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Re: Building an Audio PC
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2010, 12:00:23 PM »
Thanks Rich!

Okay, if I understand the basics a clock signal from the PC will be embedded in the audio signal it sends to the DAC.  You will likely hear this "jitter" unless you process it out of the signal from the computer with something like the Lynx PCI Card?  Damn!  Convenience certainly comes at a high cost!

Ken
I have the Empirical Audio PaceCar2 with my Transporter that does this.  The PC2 provides a clean word clock input to the TP (on BNC) and the re-clocked SPDIF out of the PC2 drives the Bryston BDA-1 DAC.  Plug and play to 24bit/96khz.
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Offline tmazz

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Re: Building an Audio PC
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2010, 12:17:02 PM »
Thanks Rich!

Okay, if I understand the basics a clock signal from the PC will be embedded in the audio signal it sends to the DAC.  You will likely hear this "jitter" unless you process it out of the signal from the computer with something like the Lynx PCI Card?  Damn!  Convenience certainly comes at a high cost!

Ken

Ken,
Jitter is not a signal in and of it self that gets added or can be taken out. Jitter is basically a measurement of the instability of the timing signal.  that can cause timing slips and ultimately data errors in the D/A process. A better PC card does not remove jitter per se but rather generates a higher quality clock signal that has less jitter in it in the first place.

Tom
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline richidoo

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Re: Building an Audio PC
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2010, 03:03:38 PM »
The freq of PCI buss is many times faster than the SPDIF output sample rate. So there are two different clocks at work, each timing their own domain. From the file on the HDD to the Lynx output is probably a dozen different clock domains. None of it matters. Error correction at each conversion assures data integrity. The SPDIF output is clocked by the Lynx card and the PCI buss has no effect. But even if the Lynx output a perfect stream, travelling on copper wire and being reclocked again by a crappy clock serving the DAC would ruin it before conversion. If the DAC relies on SPDIF stream for timing, then the Lynx will have a larger effect.  IMO it is best to worry about the clock quality at the DAC, or IN the DAC chip itself. ESS Sabre DACs have clock inside the chip. The stream timing has very little effect on analog output quality. But I will admit, JPS SPDIF cable made an audible difference.  I have to assume it was due to reduction of reflections in the wire length that is common with plain copper, and another source of jitter.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Building an Audio PC
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2010, 06:39:32 PM »
I was reading the thread on AC started by ny_paramedic and followed some of his links. He uses MPD (Music Player Daemon) on the server. Looks pretty good, small, adaptable. Can be controlled remotely by almost anything. Here is an article describing actual steps to make a Linux music server work.

http://www.rainbowcyber.co.uk/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=404