Bigfish's Quest for a DAC to lead into Computer Audio

[Bigfish8]

Ken, just my 2 cents worth, but of all the audio technology we like to listen to and compare, DACs are likely the fastest changing.  While there are great products on the market, I'd be hesitant to spend big bucks - particularly where mods come in to play,  until you're very confident how well it works in your system and to your ears. 

With that said, what are your sources today?  Is it just the Touch or are you also spinning CDs?   The DAC in the Touch is a good bit better than it was in the Squeezebox and probably approaches what was in the stock Transporter.  I guess what I'm saying is that you might be quite content with what you have and take a good bit of time to compare and let the market evolve a bit more.

Mike:

I will not purchase a DAC and have it modded, no way!  I know mods can make a good unit better but audio for me has been "not for long."  Mods are just too expensive when I want to sell as I have to give the mods away.  I think it makes more sense to purchase a product with high-end performance built into it from the manufacturer.  

Yes, DACs are evolving but should I find one that solves my current Nervosa and puts me full fledge into computer audio I will be satisfied.  

Guys:

Thanks for all of the recommendations!

Ken

[Tdangelo]

Hi Ken, I'm curious and maybe I missed it but why did you sell your MW Transporter?  You mention you wanted to get something that sounded at least as good - why didn't you just keep it?

thanks
Tony

[Bigfish8]

Tony:

You have a PM.

[pmkap]

The tube pre output on D1 is fed from opamp based ss output stage. It is basically the SS output go through an additional tube buffer stage

John,

Thanks for the clarification on the Maverick. While IMO, the Maverick lacks the baseline  performance and upgrade potential of the EE Dac, for its price it could make the center of a quite acceptable system. Martin (Acid Jazz) just swapped out the LF353s (the opamp filling the 2 dip sockets in the Maverick) for OA2107s, in his Marchand line level crossover and was extremely pleased. Looking at the technical specifications along with my subjective evaluations of the LF353 I would characterize, in engineering terms, as 'sucks'. His comment was basically that everything was simply mo' betta.

I'd simply put an OPA2107 in for the DAC output stage (different requirements for this voltage out Dac than the EE's current output DAC) and a LM4562/LME49720 for the headphone opamp. I'd think this a rather large improvement. Change the provided volume potentiometer for a Chinese $25 stereo switched ladder attenuator, and you've a flexible, inexpensive multi input DAC  with preamp functionality that could also accommodate a single stereo analog input. Not the highest end product, but certainly punching well above its cost.

FWIW,
Paul

[Bigfish8]

Guys:

Time for an update!  Shane loaned me his PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC to try in my system.  I have now listened for approximately 4 hours and it is impressive.  The source is a Squeezebox Touch connected to the DAC by JPS SC-3 Coaxial Cable to the Mapletree (Tung-Sol Round Plate 6SN&s) to the Moscode 402AU AMP (stock tubes).  The background is dead quiet.  Midrange is a little leaner than with the ModWright Transporter but it sounds right!  No tube hiss or grunge in the background!  Very nice!

Ken

[mdconnelly]

Ken, I'm curious if you've had a  chance to compare the Touch and its DAC against the Touch with the PS Audio DAC?   I don't doubt the PS Audio DAC will be better but am curious as to what differences you hear.

Having seen and heard that at Shane's, it's a nice piece of gear - perhaps the nicest I've seen from PS Audio.

[Bigfish8]

Ken, I'm curious if you've had a  chance to compare the Touch and its DAC against the Touch with the PS Audio DAC?   I don't doubt the PS Audio DAC will be better but am curious as to what differences you hear.

Having seen and heard that at Shane's, it's a nice piece of gear - perhaps the nicest I've seen from PS Audio.

You just peaked my interest so I will make the switch and let you know!

Ken

[Bigfish8]

Mike:

Initial impressions:

Soundstage much smaller!

Sounstage moved much futher back!

Music lost what I would describe as fullness or richness!

Singers have a much thinner sounding voices. 

The music just became music with no depth and lacks emotion! 

Going back to the DAC!

Ken

[Bigfish8]

I am back on the DAC - the difference is like night and day.  Mike, you need to try taking the Oracle out of the chain and you will learn how much it is really contributing to the sound quality!

Ken

[mdconnelly]

Ken,  I heard exactly as you did but I'd seen lots of posts that said that the DAC in the Touch was really quite good.   Well, compared to cheap DACs (and compared to the old SB3) it probably is, but my Oracle DAC1000 sounds great with the Touch too as I would expect the PS Audio DAC to do.   

I still find myself spinning CDs on the Oracle transport when I truly want to escape, but the Touch serves as a really fine transport.   So good, in fact, that I've kinda set the project of playback direct from computer to DAC on permanent hold.  While I suspect it could be made to sound better than the Touch (that might make for an interesting comparison), I love the flexibility of having a Touch, SB3 and Duet in different parts of the house all working off the same music db whenever/however I want.

Interestingly, since I've now got the Oracle DAC & Transport (thank you again, Shane!!), I find myself rarely spinning vinyl.  Not that I don't love vinyl (I do!), but now whenever I do so, my nervosa creeps in wanting to check the cartridge, clean the vinyl, etc, etc...  More often than not, I just want to turn out the lights and forget there even is a stereo system.     

[Bigfish8]

I took the PS Perfect Wave DAC back to Shane this afternoon and would like to thank him here on the forum for allowing me to try it in my system.  When I go over to Shane's I always leave feeling guilty as I have loads of questions and Shane loves to talk audio.  He told me he would be willing to bring over his computer and the PS Audio DAC to run a comparison of the computer to DAC versus Squeezebox Touch to DAC.  One of the key reasons I decided to sell the ModWright Transporter was to pursue computer audio (computer directly to DAC).  However, using the Touch in the system makes it very easy as all I have to do is add a DAC and a digital cable.  Choices, choices!! 

Ken

[mdconnelly]

I do believe a well thought out, ultra quiet computer with digital out to an excellent DAC has the potential to sound better than the Touch.  Both Shane and Carl's setup are *very* good.  But... there's a tradeoff.  For me, the biggest one is not wanting a computer in the living room - WAF and all.   But I can't discount the awesome convenience that the Squeezebox technologies bring.

I also understand that Bryston is working on a product that is essentially a music transport computer (running Linux I believe) with the primary purpose of getting hi-res digital files to a DAC in the best way possible.  I'm certainly a bit skeptical but the concept is interesting...  See this thread: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=80855.0

Keep us posted!

[TomS]

Ken,

Other options to consider are the Mac Mini/Amarra or Pure Vinyl via Firewire, typically coming from the pro world.
- Metric Halo LIO-8 (with pre) and ULN-8
- Weiss DAC2
- Berkeley Audio Designs (also includes an internal preamp)

A few who started with the Berkeley moved to the MH LIO/ULN since the raves from Barry Diament.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=79295.0
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=72203.0

Tom

[rollo]

  Ken,
          Computer audio IMO is just not there yet. It can be VG but at the end of the day a separate DAC and transport wins out. The USB connection is what is flawed in the concept. An IS2 connection or firewire to my ears anyway comes out ahead.
    After you listen to the computer rig if you can listen to a state of the art DAC or single box player. Say Esoteric, Lector, Berkley, Meridian, Ayre.
    Without being a snob excellent payers cost serious money. One can fool around with the wanna bees out there. Don't get me wrong they can be good but NO cigar.  The only inexpensive DAC that has caught my eye and ear is the Neko 100 DAC.
  with your current system an Ayre or Berkley just may do the trick. You have assembled a fine system so the front end is the game changer now now as you will hear more info in a richer fashion than before.  Neutral pieces like the Ayre and Berkley would fit in perfectly. HAVE FUN.


charles

[hometheaterdoc]

Computer audio will never be better than the best transports out there.  The High Rez stuff makes it less of an issue.  But it is what it is... and it's pretty darn good and pretty inexpensive....

If you are interfacing with standard DAC with SPDIF or AES/EBU, you need a good sound card.  Lynx AES16 is considered the defacto standard as best out there at the moment.  It works and it works well... but it will be more expensive than the rest of the computer combined at $500 MSRP I believe.  You also need to factor in the cost of getting a custom dongle or custom digital cable for it so you don't need the HD15 or HD25 to XLR cables that come with it.

You can build a fanless PC for a couple hundred bucks that will run Windows 7 with ease and do Foobar playback.  It's not hard.  I've had great sounding audio PCs for nearly a decade that cost $250 or less including my current machine.  It may not be fanless, but it's very quiet and does the job.  

The only drawback to audio PC is that you need a monitor.  So you have to do like Carl and I where we run long VGA cables to a monitor by the listening seat.  Or you need a laptop and connect via remote desktop to the PC... I chose to cut two plates in my wall, one by the PC and one by my listening chair, fish a long VGA cable into the crawlspace and then back up to the monitor I leave sitting close to my listening space.  It's clean and neat.  But you can just as easily fish it under carpet or run it along the wall, pull the baseboard and hide it behind, etc. etc. etc.

My total investment is less than dealer cost for a Logitech Transporter (that still needs the server with the files to stream to the device).  Since I don't like the analog output of a Transporter (I've never liked the D/A section in the piece), I add some complexity but get better digital sound fed to my DAC.  My bonus is that I can also do other computer processing on the same machine like web surfing while I'm listening, etc.  For someone that has my attention span, that's invaluable.  Not for everyone though.

I've yet to hear a USB based DAC that I like and that includes the Ayre.  A couple have come close.  But nothing has wowed me yet.  But that doesn't matter if using something like the Lynx card...  I'm about to try a couple firewire interface units and see if they can do better than the PS Audio.... so far, the PS Audio has been the best replacement for the Oracle at a more reasonable cost.  It's not better than the Oracle... but it's in the same ballpark, is less than half the price, and is future proof for now in that it natively accepts all the current high rez formats... plus it will very soon have the streaming functionality like the Squeezebox stuff when they release their network card...

The Berkeley is a nice unit... but it's $5K MSRP....  that's $2K more than the PS Audio and nearly as pricey as the Oracle.  it's a very nice unit.  I'd probably take the Oracle over it based on my limited listening time with it... $5K is a lot of coin to spend on a DAC any which way you spin it (and yes, I know there is much more pricey stuff out there.  I liked the Playback Designs player... I think that's $15K MSRP... I like a couple Esoteric pieces that are also quite pricey)..... right now the market for >$5K MSRP DACs is not large in my neck of the woods.  So like customers that are calling me, I've been trying to find the diamonds in the rough that have the features that folks want and are reasonably priced so folks will actually be able to buy them without having to save for a few years to afford the price of entry....

PC audio will likely never overtake what was possible with a very good transport as far as pure sound quality is concerned... but the convenience factor is sooooooo much greater that it's hard to go back to spinning disks.... and trying to find where you put them once they start getting mixed together in the wrong cases....  I've spun a few disks recently thanks to the PS Audio Transporter being able to playback high rez stuff... but it's been a long, long, long time since I've spun redbook disks... I'll give up that last ounce of quality for the convenience...

back into my crazy world... who knew watering new trees/plants and soil to get seeds to grow would consume so much frickin' time??  Who knew paver stones took so long to pick out and install?