Author Topic: Bigfish's Quest for a DAC to lead into Computer Audio  (Read 38433 times)

Bigfish8

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Bigfish's Quest for a DAC to lead into Computer Audio
« on: May 05, 2010, 02:48:44 PM »
Okay guys the amp quest is over and now my journey begins into the world for a DAC.  I don't know if I am entering this quest as green as I was when I entered the world of high-end audio 3 years ago but this is definitely a green (newbie) adventure for me. 

The ModWright Transporter will be in the hands of its new owner next week and while I still have it in my rack it is totally unplugged.  It will never be played in my system again!  The journey with the Transporter taught me a lot about audio and a lot about tubes.  It also taught me never to venture into a highly modded product again unless I purchase it for half price used from the original owner. :duh

My objective is to find a DAC that at a minimum produces sound equal to the ModWright Transporter.  Initially, I plan to use a Logitech Touch and send the signal from that to the DAC to a preamp to the Moscode.  This will keep me in a situation where I am currently comfortable and should sound okay.  The next step is to feed the DAC through USB (probably or fire wire) directly from a computer.  To me this is where I will need advice, help, etc., etc.! 

I suspect but am not certain that DACs will continue to get better and cheaper as time goes by but I want to jump in now.  The best DAC I have personally heard is the Oracle DAC that Mike purchased from Shane but it is way out of my price range, new!  Brands/products I am currently considering are as follows and I am hopeful some of you will recommend others:
1.  PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC
2.  WYED for Sound DACII
3.  Audio Note?
4.  Weiss DACII

I think the above provides the price range I am kind of shopping in and would ask you for your comments/experiences with them or please recommend others for my consideration. 

Thanks in advance!

Ken

Offline richidoo

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Re: Bigfish's Quest for a DAC to lead into Computer Audio
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2010, 03:22:44 PM »
I'm tinkering around with twisted pear Buffalo DACs, but certainly not settled on that yet. Time will tell if new version is a player. Parts alone $1000.
http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/buffalo.aspx

New version of High Resolution Technologies' Music Streamer II+ is available now, $350. USB only, can't use it with Touch. Reviews are many, and very positive, including TAS Golden Ear.
http://highresolutiontechnologies.com/products.html

more to come

Offline richidoo

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Re: Bigfish's Quest for a DAC to lead into Computer Audio
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2010, 03:57:39 PM »

Offline topround

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Re: Bigfish's Quest for a DAC to lead into Computer Audio
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2010, 05:28:26 PM »
I heard the Cosecant Brick and was very impressed. I also heard the Audio Note Dac kit and was very impressed as well.  From those I spoke to it seems the Dac is only half the equation, it seems the PC source and how it is implimented has a lot to do with your levels of success, but this is beyond my knowledge, I am still in the stone(d) age.
Tube Dacs seem to work well(for me) they lend a sense of delisious palpability  and weight that just gets my juices going. Solid state has more horsepower, which can be very impressive in itself, but the two luscious tube dacs I heard were just music making machines,less audiophile, which is what I am becoming less of these days.
email Lizard King he knows tons about PC audio(maybe too much)

Mike
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Black Sand Cable

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Re: Bigfish's Quest for a DAC to lead into Computer Audio
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2010, 07:32:00 PM »
If you guys are willing to forget what it costs for a minute, the one in the link below will surprise you. It's not a world beater but it's surprisingly good.

www.mavaudio.com

I have no affiliation but I have purchased at least a half dozen of them for people who wanted a cheap way to upgrade a Sonos system.

Black Sand Cable

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Re: Bigfish's Quest for a DAC to lead into Computer Audio
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2010, 07:35:12 PM »

1.  PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC
2.  WYED for Sound DACII
3.  Audio Note?
4.  Weiss DACII



1 - W4S DAC-2
2 - PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC
3 - Audio Note

If I had to put them in order, that is how I would pick. I think the W4S DAC-2 is going to take a lot of other DAC's to school very soon. Yes I'm bias as I sell them but I have heard more DAC's than your average bear and I'm basing that comment on what I have heard with my own ears.

If you had more money, Naim's new DAC is sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!  :D

Bigfish8

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Re: Bigfish's Quest for a DAC to lead into Computer Audio
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2010, 07:52:38 PM »
Quote
If you had more money, Naim's new DAC is sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet! 

Hi John:

You were too slow with your recommendation! :rofl: A two month old Naim just sold on Gon, before I knew about them, and the asking price was $2800.00.  I do not know what the selling price was but someone got a good deal!

Ken

Offline TomS

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Re: Bigfish's Quest for a DAC to lead into Computer Audio
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2010, 08:07:35 PM »
Eric Hider's USB only Tranquility DAC might be worth looking into as well.  Lots of typical FOTM buzz, but some very good minds and ears are certainly behind it.  Money back trial so not a bad option either, especially if you're DACless soon.
PS Audio Directstream DAC, PS Audio BHK Signature Preamp, Nagra Classic Amp, Focal Sopra No 2's, SVS SB16 Ultra

Offline BobM

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Re: Bigfish's Quest for a DAC to lead into Computer Audio
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2010, 06:27:00 AM »
A little birdy told me that a slightly modded Eastern Electric MiniMax is the cat's meow. It is tubed also and sounds very good stock, but with a few strategic mods applied it sings. If you're interested in that I would contact the usual modding suspects and see what can be done and at what cost.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=80555.0
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 01:06:19 PM by BobM »
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miklorsmith

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Re: Bigfish's Quest for a DAC to lead into Computer Audio
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2010, 08:38:05 AM »
If you're doing a Logitech device the USB solution is out.  IMO, USB isn't there yet, but that's based only on what I've read from (many) others.  Plus, the Logitech solution is way more portable and is its own electrical universe, apart from the computer.  I doubt there's a more electrically dirty home device than a PC and this is a good thing.

One of the biggest problems with 'conventional', separate transport/DACs is the s/pdif interface.  Not only are the clock and data signals traveling the same cable, but because there is no impedance matching, clock signals actually bounce around inside the cable and further confuse The Clock.  The reflection problem is why ART's digital cable is 15 feet long and uses BNC connectors which are 75-ohm matched.  He says it helps quite a bit but don't get him started on s/pdif.

Actually, most transports have clocks and so do the DACs.  So the transport is sending a clock signal, the DAC receives that data and tries to reconcile the two streams.  The clocks, of course, do not synchronize perfectly.  Result?  Jitter.  Pro gear often has a 'master clock' which coordinates these functions, as do some top-end manufacturers like dcs and Esoteric.  I would imagine the PS Audio system takes clock synchronization into account which is likely responsible for some of its acclaim.

I asked Vinnie at Red Wine Audio one time why I preferred non-oversampling DACs.  His explanation compared a normal car with the same car with tons more horsepower.  The normal car does its job effectively without strange side effects - the hopped-up version has much less margin for error.

I went through a good number of DACs before gravitating toward NOS units.  My favorite was the Altmann Ugly Betty (not the real name but SHOULD be).  Such a nice, talented, homely girl.  It ruled the roost until I got the Lessloss paired with a clock-linked CDP.  It uses two digital cables, sending clock signals to the disabled transport and receiving music data.

It's better, by quite a bit.  Without delving into the usual blahbedee dah, it's huge resolution plus very low digital nasties.  They're not abolished completely in my setup, if I went a little softer on my tube complement I could eliminate them but that would give up resolution I'm not ready to lose.

BUT you say, I said computer audio!!  Oh yes, getting to that.  It turns out the transport clock linking is a relatively simple process for any competent practitioner (not me).  I already had three Squeezeboxes, sent one to Vinnie for the operation.  He's not doing this service but anybody could.  He talked to Liudas at Lessloss, it was a simple operation that's been completely stable for the last couple years.  As far as I know, I'm the only one anywhere that has this combination which could mean I'm prescient or a dying/dead branch on the evolutionary tree.

IMO, it's the best of all possible worlds.  I even just downloaded the $4 SqueezeCommander app for my brand new Droid Incredible and HOLYFRICKINWOW!!!  It's at least as fast as my laptop as remote, better screen, fits in my pocket.  You Apple guys have the Ipeng app which is at least as good.

I don't really understand any of this stuff, this is all just my conglomeration from many hours researching and conversing with knowledgeable folks.  My guess is that 'this DAC' versus 'that DAC' is hugely dependent on synergy.  Like preamp/amp impedance or an amp/speaker interface, the match predicts the outcome.  Unlike those comparisons though, there aren't handy impedance, sensitivity, or other measures to narrow the choices.  I'd even guess that individual pieces of a particular model may perform differently as I seriously doubt every clock performs exactly the same.  This is gross speculation though.

It's a real shame the Lessloss DAC hasn't gotten more press.  Everywhere I've seen comments, they've been positive.  Danny Kaey got the review piece after I finished with it and he's still using his as reference too.  He just had further comments not long ago about it.  Reviewers don't keep stuff for years, almost ever.

Asynchronous, synchronous, upsampling, oversampling, everyone says they've solved the jitter problem.  IME the claims don't translate to earholes.

As usual, I can't keep my comments brief.  At least they didn't cost you anything.  :)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 08:42:42 AM by miklorsmith »

Offline rollo

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Re: Bigfish's Quest for a DAC to lead into Computer Audio
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2010, 08:51:57 AM »
Hey Ken,
            It would be difficult at best to recco a DAC withour knowing the character of your system. Do we want a neutral, warm or bright sound ? Once you have determined the flavor or flavorless source a recco would be much easier.
   The Weiss DAC appears to have per ferred connection to computer audio. IMO the only flaw so far is the USB connection. Once you get past setting up the pooter with ASIO drive for all, select a ripping and burning program the rest is cake.
   One cannot go wrong with Audio Note, Weiss, Esoteric, Muse, Ayre, Meridian and Neko [ giant killer]. remember garbage in garbage out. Me I woulf look for a neutral source like the Ayre or Weiss.
   Have fun.


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Offline richidoo

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Re: Bigfish's Quest for a DAC to lead into Computer Audio
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2010, 09:12:54 AM »
Me I woulf look for a neutral source like the Ayre or Weiss.

Charlie you are a woulf in cheeps clothing.  :rofl:

pmkap

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Re: Bigfish's Quest for a DAC to lead into Computer Audio
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2010, 09:17:47 AM »
If you guys are willing to forget what it costs for a minute, the one in the link below will surprise you. It's not a world beater but it's surprisingly good.

www.mavaudio.com

I have no affiliation but I have purchased at least a half dozen of them for people who wanted a cheap way to upgrade a Sonos system.

I've no experience with the Maverick, but I've gleaned that it uses 2 socketed dip8 dual opamps. One for the solid state output and the other as the headphone amp. Those opamps are LF353 and they can be improved upon significantly, with simple swaps. Does anyone know if the tube output stage bypasses the opamp or if it is fed from that opamp based ss output stage?

FWIW,
Paul

Offline BobM

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Re: Bigfish's Quest for a DAC to lead into Computer Audio
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2010, 09:20:26 AM »
I can vouch for the quality of the audio on the Ayre digital players. Very natural with the new MP upgrades. They also have some new way of improving the USB interface that is supposed to be revolutionary and avoids all the usual pitfalls and issues.

Not inexpensive though.
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Cry and you'll have to blow your nose.

Offline mfsoa

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Re: Bigfish's Quest for a DAC to lead into Computer Audio
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2010, 09:22:20 AM »
Personally I've been drooling over the Esoteric SA-50 , athough the price is above my budget.
It is supposed to be a top-flight cd and SACD player, and it has digital inputs as well so it's very versitile. And supposed to sound great too.

-Mike