Author Topic: G2G at Richidoos  (Read 13144 times)

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
G2G at Richidoos
« on: March 25, 2007, 07:23:27 PM »
We had a fun time today. We were inundated with a variety of amps, cables, CDP and SBs. It was tought to fit it all in, but we almost heard it all. Thanks to Carl, Steve (stereofool), Henry and Rob for coming by.

We started with Steve's Linn Imeki CDP with the Cary integrated. It was a beautiful sound and I could hear the big difference in pace that the player had over the SB. Tone is important to me, but with jazz pace is the most important thing to swing. The Linn had both.

I had a treat hearing Carl's Mac 402 and C220 preamp. They make beautiful music and are very smooth and musical. They are by far the best SS amplifier I have heard yet. They were precise, calm, powerful assured. I learned that the tube fire that I love so much is really a subtle distortion, the Mac made that clear with its unbelieveable purity. I still like tubes though!

We also listened to the tube Manley Snappers with Carls Mac preamp. It was fun and exciting for me. Very dynamic and engrossing. The music takes over. The amps are only 30 hours broken in, so the upper mids are still bright and the overall presentation is kind of aggressive, but the tube ambience is good as well as ultimate detail retrieval. I feel like I am at the venue more than the other amps we heard. With the zeroformers helping with the bass alittle, the Snappers are as exciting in the bass if not as exacting as the 402.

Shane couldn't come, but graciously offered to let us play the Butler Monads. We had lots of fun with them. The glow of tubes in the mids and treble, the rich harmonics and roundness of tones and iron fist control and impact of the bass were great. After the Mac 402, which is just so well balanced and transparent, I could easily hear the 2nd order harmonic distortion that BK deliberately adds to the Monad. It adds light to the tone and has a different overall feel than the Mac. It is tastefully done and enjoyable. It adds a lot of life to the SS sound. Shane also sent Black Sand Silver mk5 cables and Running Spring Audio power conditioner. Thanks Shane!!!!! We missed you.

We did not get a chance to listen to Cary 500MB today. I listened to them prior to the meet and found them not to my liking. The Monad and 402 better them in every way. I thought the Cary SLI-80 and the Snappers were more balanced and "of a whole" despite their own issues, the Cary just too low powered, and the Snappers still not broken in.

Carl brought a SB3 with BlackSandCables mods. It was clearly and unmistakably superior even using stock wall wart PS to my stock SB using Power one linear PS. We were using identical Grover silver interconnects on both, using Mac pre to trim levels and switch back and forth. Then we added the linear PS to the BlackSand SB and had a further improvement, similar to what it gives a stock SB. The transparency of the BS SB was evident in the highs mid and low freqs. We listened to this for the rest of the session. The Linn CDP helds its own with the modded SB. It is a fantastic player. Thanks for bringing it Steve!! An eye opener for me.

We also swapped some ICs and that was very cool. I thought the Grover ICs were great.  I don't remember the name of the other brands we heard, sorry! I think the Grover's were even better than my anti-cables. I will certainly buy some to compare long term when we get our group buy up and flying.

Rob brought Rega Planet player and cables. We did not get to play the Planet, and that was a shame. I hope to hear it sometime in the future. We even hooked up the turntable for a little Kind of Blue.

Overall, I had a blast and I am so thankful for all the guys who came and brought something to show and tell. Especially Carl for bringing the heavy iron 402 along and giving me a lesson in SS perfection. The Mac preamp made the comparisons and swapping much easier. Thanks Carl!

Thanks to everyone who came. I had a blast and look forward to doing it again soon! Pictures coming tomorrow. I'm bushed!
Rich

Offline bpape

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 1554
  • Sensible Sound Solutions
    • Owner - Sensible Sound Solutions
G2G at Richidoos
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2007, 07:44:32 PM »
When did Black Sand start modding SqueezeBoxes?  :wink:

Bryan
I am serious... and don't call me Shirley

Offline stereofool

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 453
G2G at Richidoos
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2007, 07:49:40 PM »
Thanks to Rich...for hosting this G2G!

He has a nice large room, that has been acoustically well treated...resulting in no negative impact, from the room.

Rich's Legacy (model ?) speakers were rather awesome sounding. A large/wide soundstage, good depth, very transparent and extended...very DEEP and quite visceral bass  :D !

Also, Rich's Cary integrated actually sounded very good, albiet a bit shy in the bass department.

The Manley Snappers provided improvement overall...especially in having enough power to drive the Legacy's multiple large woofers.

Enter Carl's McIntosh 402, and McIntosh C220 pre-amp. This was the most musical combination of the bunch. I can see that the Legacy's are only limited by the equipment driving them. The Mac definitely controlled the bass region much better, and held its own above that...with both the Manley's and the Butler Monad's.

The Butler Monad's are wonderful sounding amps...you can just listen into the music...forever. Unfortunately, they are well out of my price range...so not a foreseeable option  :( !

It was great to see some of the 'Nervosa' gang, again. Hopefully, we can do this again, soon.
Steve
Have you ever noticed.... Anyone going slower than you is an idiot...and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
G2G at Richidoos
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2007, 08:09:20 PM »
Quote from: "bpape"
When did Black Sand start modding SqueezeBoxes?  :wink:
Bryan

As usual, my stunted sense of humor doesn't get your wink, so I will just play dumb. Here's the blurb about the upgrade:

Quote
The upgrade involves complete disassembly of the unit and cryo treatment of everything in the audio & power path. Those parts are then treated with a conductivity enhancer and then re-cryo'd, re-assembled and tested. Cardas caps are installed on the 2 RCA out jacks as well as the coaxial digital out. The result: A lower noise floor, increased signal flow and greater detail and overall clarity.

http://www.blacksandcable.com/players.html

Sounded goooooooood! I'm getting it!
Rich

Offline Carlman

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 3037
G2G at Richidoos
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2007, 08:54:37 PM »
I had a really good time today... Thanks to Rich and his wife for sharing their home and hosting such a nice gathering.  It was nice to see some folks I haven't seen in a while and meet some new ones!  :)

Rich's speakers have a very 'real' or visceral way of communicating music which I found delightful.  I also found the tube amps to produce a more 'live' sound... as if you were at an amplified performance, and close to the stage... so you got to hear a bit of what the musicians heard, rather than the 'audience speakers'. ;)  

I could easily slip into just listening to the music with these speakers and enjoyed them all afternoon.  I think they could fill a huge room and didn't struggle at all in Rich's large family room that extended into an equally large kitchen.  Rich likes a presentation in his room and he's got it.

I liked certain things about all the gear but am too tired to type it all at the moment... Just wanted to say thanks and compliment the effort that I know has gone into finding this succesful formula.

Gnight,
Carl
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline bpape

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 1554
  • Sensible Sound Solutions
    • Owner - Sensible Sound Solutions
G2G at Richidoos
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2007, 09:17:33 PM »
Sounds like you guys had a good time.

Rich - my mistake.  Thought Carl had a Bolder modded SB.  I really wasnt' aware that BS was doing any mods to the SB.

Bryan
I am serious... and don't call me Shirley

shep

  • Guest
G2G at Richidoos
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2007, 12:13:38 AM »
Sounds like a good time was had by all! So that's where everyone disappeared to...meanwhile my cdp is in pieces on the table. I'm having withdrawal symptoms. I hope we get to hear more about all that lovely gear and especially Grover's wire.

Offline Carlman

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 3037
G2G at Richidoos
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2007, 07:04:27 AM »
More thoughts...

The amps we heard were definitely different 'flavors' of presentations.  None of the gear was disappointing.... all high-class.  The comparisons we did were mostly for fun, and to give Rich a taste of of what each amp can do for him.  I forgot music so I was introduced some really cool new music but I couldn't really disect what I heard... I could only surmise an overall impression of each amp's presentation.

The first (Cary) amp was a bit thin when pushed to do bass or fast and complex music... but otherwise had a semi-warm, textured sound that was very enjoyable.  The Snappers had a little 'dryer' sound, maybe they needed a little water? ;)  (going with the fish puns)  However, the Snappers had the power that Rich's speakers needed so the overall presentation was more detailed, more 'together'.  Then, the McIntosh... I felt a sense of comfort listening to my own amp and familiarity helped me enjoy what I was hearing even more than the Snappers.  Finally, towards the end we used the Butler monads.  Great amps, they deserve all the praise... but for me, they weren't $15,k better than what I have... I felt 'affimed' about my Mac after hearing all these amps.

During all the amp comparo's we did some cable-rolling... We had been using some wild-looking copper IC's that Rich had for the entire day... But we compared the Reality Cables to the Grover Huffman cables... it was just a quick test.  But, there was a pretty big difference.  The Huffman's are simply more resolving, and extract every detail of the signal between devices.  Good job, Grover. :)  I would say the Grover's are barely broken-in... with maybe 20 hours on them.... but I think they need a little more... they have a slight hard edge to them that the Reality's do not.  The Reality's in comparison were smoother, but lost resolution at the top and bottom comparitively.  I'll keep burning-in Grover's cables and see if I can get it all. ;)

The Squeezebox mods that John at BSC does are the real deal.  I will have a modified Transporter from him this week.  I'll try to do some comparo's with it soon.

Thanks again,
Carl
I really enjoy listening to music.

miklorsmith

  • Guest
G2G at Richidoos
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2007, 07:18:45 AM »
Very cool, fellas.

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
G2G at Richidoos
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2007, 05:40:35 PM »
Nice writeup Carl. I agree with everything you said. But I have to add an addendum. Last night after the smoke had cleared and a few chores due before the meet were finally completed, I finally got to sit down and listen again to ther Snappers and the Monads, which were still visiting thanks to Shane's enviable lifestyle and lack of opportunity to return them.

SHane also loaned us a power conditioner and some black sands power cables. When listening to them by myself at length I was feeling funny about the Monads sound and also the Snappers. I had played the Snappers from new through 25 hours the previous week and was familiar with their sound and quirks. I had to agree with Carl's observation that they sounded bright and to me a little gritty and annoying. I knew they didn;t sound like this before. The Monads sounded big fat round and gooey tubey. Defitely not reference amplifier material. So I figured, let's simplify and observe. I took out the power cond. and went straight into the wall. BIngo! Both amps immeidately sounded 100%. The Snapper was back to how it sounded before, all the grit and harsh detail was gone. The opposite happened to the Monads, they tightened up, quickened up and that glorious sunshine of  deliberate 2nd order distortion of the 300B came pouring in like dawn. It was awesome.  

While I was  fiddling and swapping things, I also swapped in  the stock plastic molded power cords that came with the Snappers. They are thick, 12ga I think, but they were an obvious downgrade from the Silver Ref mk5. The tube amps were more detailed, clearer, much better projection, maybe even louder, and slightly sweeter. Compared to the power cond., the difference swapping cable was subtle but easily audible. To me, it is worth the price I paid in the group buy. I wish I bought two!

I was thinking I wish I could hear Carl's Mac without the power cond. but to be honest, it sounded best of all while connected to the cond. I know Mac has some extra parts in there for power conditioning, autoformers, secret bits, so maybe it just wasn't affected as much as the other amps without such special guts.

Next up, preamp shootout in a few months.
Rich

Offline Carlman

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 3037
G2G at Richidoos
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2007, 06:17:25 PM »
Glad you found the right trick to get things sounding their best.  
I can't wait to hear it again with direct-power.  

BTW, I think you're right about the Mac's power supply... I haven't found much difference between direct-to-the-wall vs. into the conditioner.... I keep it in the conditioner mainly for protection from surges/spikes since I have it on 24/7.  

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
pics
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2007, 04:55:46 PM »
Finally some pictures:
http://parkwestlake.com/nopw/rich/hifi/g2g/page_01.htm

Half of these are from stereofool, thanks Steve.
Rich

opnly bafld

  • Guest
G2G at Richidoos
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2007, 05:11:32 PM »
When I used to go down to Legacy to listen to their speakers, I always thought the Focus were big speakers, but now looking at the pictures they seem quite small.
Maybe it's because now that I have RM40s that are almost 6' tall, just about every speaker seems small or should I say mine look too big. :(

Lin

lonewolfny42

  • Guest
G2G at Richidoos
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2007, 08:33:08 PM »
Thanks for the photo's..... :beer: