AudioNervosa

Systemic Development => Bipolar System Disorders => Topic started by: rollo on December 22, 2018, 01:19:58 PM

Title: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: rollo on December 22, 2018, 01:19:58 PM
  There is allot of BS coming from some reviewers about measurements being the only criteria for good sound. I say BS. Remember Halcro, Japenese receivers and so on. The best of the best measurements but sounded like crapola.
The bottom line is how close does it reproduce the heart, soul and detail of recording.
   Part selection is critical for great sound. Even some distortion yes distortion is required to achieve a lifelike sound. NOT saying measurements do not matter. Of course they do. Just is not the end all IMHO.  If it was just go out and buy a Japanese 1970 receiver. Ye say ???. Lots of great sounding gear is being ripped due to less than perfect measurements but sales are through the roof, please explain.


charles
Title: Re: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: Nick B on December 22, 2018, 01:27:15 PM
There certainly was a bit of blowback regarding Stereophile’s review and measurements regarding the Border Patrol dac. There was also  a funny and pointed letter to the editor by a BP dac user. He and I, Dave, Pete and a lot of others love that dac. As I’ll never measure a  device on my own and be around anyone who does, all I care about is how it sounds 🎻🎶
Nick
Title: Re: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: P.I. on December 22, 2018, 11:06:07 PM
OK.  I’ll go ahead and say what I know to be true.  JA is a dolt.

Right before Stereophile was sold to Petersen Publishing in 1998 I was contracted to design a new listening room for their new building in Santa Fe.  Larry Archibald and I had many meetings and lunches during that time and JA was in attendance for a few.  He was on the measurement quest back then and LA would shake his head after Atkinson would leave and say that John was trying to come to grips with measurements not agreeing with what he (JA) heard.

I’m still not convinced that measurements tell the truth about sound quality because they measure voltage relative to resistance even during frequency response curves and time domain plots.

Laser interferometry is a different animal, but it is used for different purposes.
Title: Re: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: Nick B on December 23, 2018, 09:28:18 AM
OK.  I’ll go ahead and say what I know to be true.  JA is a dolt.

Right before Stereophile was sold to Petersen Publishing in 1998 I was contracted to design a new listening room for their new building in Santa Fe.  Larry Archibald and I had many meetings and lunches during that time and JA was in attendance for a few.  He was on the measurement quest back then and LA would shake his head after Atkinson would leave and say that John was trying to come to grips with measurements not agreeing with what he (JA) heard.

I’m still not convinced that measurements tell the truth about sound quality because they measure voltage relative to resistance even during frequency response curves and time domain plots.

Laser interferometry is a different animal, but it is used for different purposes.

Dave,
You sure know a lot of guys in this biz. Thanks for your “measured” response.
Nick
Title: Re: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: P.I. on December 23, 2018, 11:11:09 PM
Like Buddy Guy and Pete say:  I’m old.
Title: Re: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: Triode Pete on December 24, 2018, 09:20:11 AM
Like Buddy Guy and Pete say:  I’m old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UjW-Rd2B3o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UjW-Rd2B3o)
Title: Re: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: dflee on December 24, 2018, 10:12:09 AM
Now that is just plain mean Pete. (True but still mean).
Sweet Tea anyone?
Gettin old ain't for sissies.

Don
Title: Re: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: jimbones on December 24, 2018, 10:18:38 AM
I consider measurements to be a starting point. After that I believe it acceptable to voice a component. I "voice" my speakers after the initial design and find it to be more satisfying. Somebody online stated that 'voicing is a band aid for an improper design'. Well, I spoke with a a few highly regarded designers and they all voice their equipment.
Title: Re: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: P.I. on December 24, 2018, 03:39:15 PM
Like Buddy Guy and Pete say:  I’m old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UjW-Rd2B3o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UjW-Rd2B3o)
When Gayle and I walked into the TWL/Volti/Border Patrol room and you had me sit in the sweet spot I thought how special.  When Buddy started singing I KNEW it was special!    :thumb:
Title: Re: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: P.I. on December 24, 2018, 03:42:58 PM
I consider measurements to be a starting point. After that I believe it acceptable to voice a component. I "voice" my speakers after the initial design and find it to be more satisfying. Somebody online stated that 'voicing is a band aid for an improper design'. Well, I spoke with a a few highly regarded designers and they all voice their equipment.
”Somebody” was and is wrong.  Voicing completes a design by compensating for the individual differences in components and gear.  It also allows for personal preference.
Title: Re: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: steve on December 24, 2018, 09:01:30 PM
I agree, measurements are not the all that some claim. I have mentioned several times on forums that I am adjusting
my zobel resistor by 2 millionths of an ohm and we perceive the sonic, tonal, frequency response difference.

That kind of adjustment causes slight changes over many octaves. The saying we have is when we adjust the treble, the sonic changes are perceived all the way to/through the bass. RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook also indicates such perceptions back in 1960 and probably before.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: rollo on December 26, 2018, 09:03:25 AM
  It was not only the Border Patrol DAC. Aqua Formula xHD DAC, and LTA were berated as well. Then there is Audio Note, hammered.
 It also appears that some reviewers long in the tooth like a bright sound. The younger ones a crisp sound. Your thoughts ??

charles
Title: Re: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: Nick B on December 26, 2018, 09:18:17 AM
  It was not only the Border Patrol DAC. Aqua Formula xHD DAC, and LTA were berated as well. Then there is Audio Note, hammered.
 It also appears that some reviewers long in the tooth like a bright sound. The younger ones a crisp sound. Your thoughts ??

charles

As I was smitten for the longest time by ultimate detail retrieval, I didn’t appreciate the  musicality that a product like the BP dac can deliver. If measurements are the be all end all, then why bother to listen to or audition anything? I’m not sure about the younger crowd. The ones I know never hint at appreciating quality sound. They’re just wrapped up in having headphones on so they can tune out the world
Nick
Title: Re: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: steve on December 26, 2018, 01:48:13 PM
An audiophile friend gave me a Shiit Mode 2 dac, and it is impressive. However, I haven't auditioned others
to compare against, save the "Dragon Fly", which did not impressed.

Anyone else compare the Shiit to some others?

cheers

steve 
Title: Re: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: steve on December 26, 2018, 02:16:29 PM
Somebody online stated that 'voicing is a band aid for an improper design'.

I can guess who the "somebody" is, or maybe a few gentlemen on other forums Jim.

Some of those guys hype themselves while understanding virtually nothing about electronics, physics, or phycho- acoustics. As such, they are very close to being crooks by misrepresenting themselves.

Some years ago, one was known as XX the fraud on Stereophile forums. He joined and immediately started calling everyone a "pervert" because he/she didn't agree with him. Then he, and his friend, were flat out caught falsifying data, and undercutting a major study by posting false information about that study.

They either work for audio companies, own a company, are affiliated with certain companies etc.
There are conflicts of interest. The important thing is to not buy into their false claims.
Ignore them. Get the word out.

cheers

steve

Title: Re: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: P.I. on December 30, 2018, 10:27:15 PM
Somebody online stated that 'voicing is a band aid for an improper design'.

I can guess who the "somebody" is, or maybe a few gentlemen on other forums Jim.

Some of those guys hype themselves while understanding virtually nothing about electronics, physics, or phycho- acoustics. As such, they are very close to being crooks by misrepresenting themselves.

They either work for audio companies, own a company, are affiliated with certain companies etc.
There are conflicts of interest. The important thing is to not buy into their false claims.
Ignore them. Get the word out.

cheers

steve
Or they own the forum... Several of those around.  :roll:
Title: Re: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: rollo on January 04, 2019, 07:30:06 AM
  Doug I would love the opportunity to let you hear state of the art digital in your system. The Art DIO is VG however much advanced digital out there.
  I do love the routine of playing LPs and enjoy their sound. Today its a much closer call the CD/LP thing. Both have an advantage over the other. For years iIwould lecture about vinyls superior sonics over CD. As time went on the advancement in digital just kept getting closer to vinyl.
  It was not until I bought a state of the art digital front end to match the analog in my system. Now both are just wonderful again with vinyl being a tad more 3D and rounder and CD more transparent and dynamic.
  Love both formats however feel in the very near future digital will be better overall.


charles
Title: Re: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: rollo on January 05, 2019, 11:39:25 AM
   Doug that is the issue no under 1K or even 2K DAC will do. They just do not stack up compared to say an Aqua, DCS, MSB DAC but they will cost ya. At least the Aqua is modular and future proof.
   Anyway love both formats any way ya slice it. Enjoy !!!! Actually running a mono and stereo TT. Loving the mono Jazz.


charles
Title: Re: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: rollo on January 12, 2019, 10:00:17 AM
  Where are ya located ? I understand your point. The Innuos Zen Mini especially with outboard power supply is a Kaboom for the buck product. We just cannot keep them in stock. Yes the Schiit is getting some notice. However I prefer ladder DACs to chips. I find most to be bright and over detailed. However have not heard Schitt so cannot comment on performance.
 What tunas you have there that need a new home ??

charles
Title: Re: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: rollo on January 12, 2019, 12:31:49 PM
  Doug my apologies thought you another Doug my bad. Was unaware that was a ladder DAC, stand corrected.


charles
Title: Re: Measurements and Voicing
Post by: steve on January 13, 2019, 08:11:35 PM
  Where are ya located ? I understand your point. The Innuos Zen Mini especially with outboard power supply is a Kaboom for the buck product. We just cannot keep them in stock. Yes the Schiit is getting some notice. However I prefer ladder DACs to chips. I find most to be bright and over detailed. However have not heard Schitt so cannot comment on performance.
 What tunas you have there that need a new home ??

charles

I was given a mode 2 DAC and have been testing it Charles. The mode 2 is somewhat bass heavy, but not nearly as bass heavy as the dragon fly. I am in the process of modifying the mode 2, with very nice success. I don't know about the mode 3, as from what I have heard it has a redesigned power supply.

cheers

steve