AudioNervosa
Group Therapy => NC Triangulation => Topic started by: hometheaterdoc on February 18, 2010, 12:30:08 PM
-
OK... It looks like with Rich's get together we'll have some audio goodies to listen to in different rooms over the next couple weeks.
This is getting to be last minute, but I'll officially put this on the calendar. Saturday Feb. 27 starting around 4-5PM.
The reason it's so late in the afternoon is that I'm going to be participating in the St. Baldrick's event at Hibernian Pub in Raleigh that day starting at 1PM. So I will be buzz cut when you all see me later that afternoon. I'll create a separate post for folks to let them know and donate if you feel the need.
anyways, back to this get together.
New toys:
- a new pair of floorstanders that are modestly priced
- the diamond tweeter equipped Usher Tiny Dancer (formerly known officially as Be-718)
- I'll be putting in a call to ken to see if we can work something out for me to steal back his Usher Mini 2s for the weekend
- new subwoofers from TBI and others that I'm trying to break in and integrate with some bookshelf speaker options
- new digital front ends including the now broken in slightly modified Oppo 83SE, a new digital transport, and a couple DAC options.
- a comparison using the same machine between the Lynx L22 soundcard outputing AES/EBU through custom JPS dongle and the M2Tech USB-spdif dongle that uses proprietary drivers to output 24/192 via kernel streaming. So bring your hi-rez files!
- a new to me amplifier that is a more refined version of the Butler Audio amps... but also a higher price tag to go along with it....
What won't be here just yet:
new Harbeth demo models to listen and compare to the modestly priced speakers.
I'm going to simple again. So pizza will likely be delivered and I'll have some munchies.... Stale beer that still hasn't been drunk from our last events will be available and I'll get a few more bottles of different brands. If you want to bring something, that's fine. But please don't bring too much beer and leave it behind :) I'd rather you just bring yourself and more music choices for us to hear, especially high rez stuff.
As an aside, it's become oh so abundantly clear with the different speakers that I have some serious work to do on my structure to tame the bass issue that some wanted to attribute to the Harbeth Monitor 40.1s... It's even more obvious with the subs.... the measurements are ugly and it isn't any of the speakers fault...
let me know via PM, email, phone, or this thread if you can make it. I'd like to get an idea of headcount. Thanks! If Sunday works better for everyone, we can do that date as well. I'm open to either...
-
Sorry Shane, I have a dinner party at my house that night, so I can't make it. BUMMER for me!
EDIT: Actually, my guests usually leave by 8-9pm, so I might be able to come over after that unless wifey makes me clean up. So save some Doritos for me. ;)
-
I might be able to make it...provided no nasty surprises arise :roll:!
-
I just got confirmation from Ken that we're going to make the Usher Mini 2 speakers happen for the get together!!....
So for this get together:
Speakers:
Usher Tiny Dancer Diamond tweeters
Usher Mini 2 with BE tweeters (we can swap in the Diamond tweeters to compare)
a new floorstander priced almost the same as the Usher Mini 2
various harbeth models can be substituted in if folks wish...
Amplifiers:
Belles Reference 150A v2
Butler Audio TDB-2250
a new hybrid amp I'm trying out
LFD NCSE if we want to mix that in
Sources:
Oppo Digital BDP-83SE modified slightly by Sol
My audio PC with Lynx L22 sound card and M2Tech USB-SPDIF dongle
Buffalo DAC32 kit heavily modified by Sol (more to come on that in the next month or so)
a new transport and DAC I'm trying out
For those interested, I'll be showing off a more modestly done (and priced) home theater setup that I've been impressed with the past week or so. I'm finally starting to be much happier with that theater room setup. Still two more things to do in there. But so far it's been very good.
Let me know via phone, email, PM, or posting here if you can make it. Looking forward to seeing some folks.
-
Shane,
I'm still interested, but I need to see how things go closer to the weekend. I'll let you know for sure Sat morning.
-
Shane,
I will be over Sat evening! I need to chat with you anyway.
-
Count me in as well! Can't wait to hear Ken's speakers. While I can't stay too late, let me know if you want me to bring the DAC1000 or transport (or anything else ;-)
-
I've been waiting to see how this weekend is going to play out for a long time.. And regrettably it appears that I won't be able to make it.. or if I do, it'll only be for a short time.. Hopefully y'all will update us on what you hear! :)
-
Mike,
thanks for the offer... DAC 1000 would be welcome. I'd like to hear it again compared to what's here. It's swiss army knife config will also be welcome. No need on the transport. I think we're good with the two here.
I'm going to be heading over to Ken's in a little bit to pick up speakers and get them swapped out with new diamond tweeters. We'll play swap if folks want back to the BE tweeters so folks can hear the difference.
Unless something drastic happens with the integration in the room, I'll have the Tiny Dancer 718s on standby in the other room. I'll setup for Usher and the new floorstander to be side by side (no, not ideal, but easier to swap around with just speaker cables having to change). I've been running DAC direct into amps so far and it sounds interesting. Based on how we can get side tracked from time to time, I want to keep the swapping down or choices down a bit so we can definitely listen to a couple key things and then take requests at some point if there is a specific combination you want to hear.
I'm going to try to get the EQ dialed in with theater room setup tonight as well. Right now the sub integration isn't ideal... otherwise its surprisingly good sound in there.
Looking forward to seeing folks. Be forewarned, my head is going to be shiny bald :)
-
My wife says I can leave at 8pm. I will bring sunglasses. 8)
-
Holy Crap! I think I should have gone to the Eastern Shore this weekend because I already miss my babies. Damn! Shane left with them a little while ago and I put my old Monitor Audio 9i's in their place. It reminds me of listening to a radio playing instead of a decent 2 channel system. My babies had not been moved even a fraction of an inch since Shane and I set them up several months ago. When they come back on Sunday they will not move again until I upgrade in the distant future or I am dust in a Urn! :thumb:
I look forward to hearing the new gear over at Shane's tomorrow night and to seeing all of you guys!
Ken
-
I would love to be there to hear the Ushers Mini 2 speakers. It will be late if I can, after work.
henry
-
Ken, looking forward to seeing you and your babies!
-
Ken,
I'm not sure I can give these back to you... Holy hell these things are awesome... It may not be everyone's sound and they are far from perfect (RichardS isn't going to like the bass as an example)... but it's doin' it for me in a big way overall right now...
the more things change, the more they stay the same...
-
Shane, remember that you originally just loaned them to Ken. They were going to be yours! :rofl:
Just how deep do they go?
-
they're rated -3db at 28Hz... I think they do that... just not an overpowering bottom end... which really works in this room... the other floorstander for today is supposedly -3db ~30Hz or so... but has a more pronounced bottom end...
-
Shane, remember that you originally just loaned them to Ken. They were going to be yours! :rofl:
Mike:
:wtf: ](*,)
Damn tough decision to let them out of my house and this is making it even tougher!
Ken
-
Ken, is that Shane behind the wall? :rofl: Not sure if Shane actually got a chance to hear them at his place first but I remember talking with him about the Usher Mini Dancer 2s while they were still in the box in his garage.
Can't wait to hear them. See you tonight!
-
Ken, don't worry, Shane will send you home with the new mystery speakers. ;)
Thanks for letting us hear the Minis tonight.
-
Ken, don't worry, Shane will send you home with the new mystery speakers. ;)
Thanks for letting us hear the Minis tonight.
Nope, I am just too happy with the match of the Mini II's in this room!
Ken
-
I'm happy that you love them so much. :thumb:
-
I'm sorry I could not make it tonight. My guests' kids did not break down by 7:45 as they usually do, with resulting mass exodus, so wine and laughter flowed freely among the adults until 9:30. But I was thinking about you guys swapping DACs and speakers. I hope you all had fun. Looking forward to seeing you in March.
Rich
-
I just arrived back home from a very fun evening at Shane's and would like to thank him for the wonderful hospitality. I arrived at approximately 5:45 and the fellas were listening to the top of the line PSB Speakers. They presented the music with a big sound stage and I remember commenting to myself that they very detailed and lean sounding. The Usher Mini Dancer II's with a new Diamond Tweeter were switched in place of the PSB's. The sound was not as lean as the PSB's, the bass was tighter sounding and to me the music was just richer in quality. I think if I were just sitting down to listen to music for an hour I might enjoy the PSB's but in that I listen for longer periods of time I would definitely prefer the Ushers. Another comment would be if I primarily used the L&R Mains for HT then I would definitely go with the PSB's. Shane told us they are available with a matching center and matching rears. This would make for one dynamite surround system.
Most of the 2 channel listening was done with a Butler 2250 amp providing the power. Shane was feeding a computer signal to a new DAC and Transport directly into the amp. Mike Connelly brought along his Oracle DAC 1000 and we ran a comparison to Shane's new DAC. While we judged the Oracle to be slightly better we felt it should be at over twice the price of Shane's new gear. Mike, you have one heck of a nice DAC.
One of the highlights of the evening for me was the visit upstairs to experience Shane's HT Projection System. Anyone in the Raleigh are looking for an amazing, high quality HT System owe it to yourselves to contact Shane.
Thanks Again Shane for a great evening.
-
I'm sorry I could not make it tonight. My guests' kids did not break down by 7:45 as they usually do, with resulting mass exodus, so wine and laughter flowed freely among the adults until 9:30. But I was thinking about you guys swapping DACs and speakers. I hope you all had fun. Looking forward to seeing you in March.
Rich
Hi Rich:
We missed you! Steve and I waited around until slightly after 10:00PM thinking you would show any minute.
I hope you had fun but we know you were missed.
Ken
-
Shane,
Thanks, as always, for your wonderful hospitality :thumb:!
Ken & Mike...great to see you, as well.
No doubt the Ushers bested the PSB's... they gave a smoother, more defined presentation and bass was much tighter and better defined. This was especially noticeable on a deeper male voice...it had more weight, and body.
Ditto, on the fabulous HT upstairs! The JVC projector gives great picture quality, and the sound wasn't bad, either.
The PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC actually sounded pretty good, but the Oracle did sound better.
Rich...you were missed :(!
-
Last night my computer was acting up and it would not allow me to edit my post. I failed to talk about the new Diamond Tweeter in the Ushers. Shane switched back to the old standard Beryllium Tweeter around 8:30 PM. I think we all preferred the detail and smoothness of the Diamond Tweeters. The Diamonds lacked the edgy sound presented by the Berylliums. (Shane, I definitely want to upgrade)!
Just prior to the end of the evening Shane switched from the Butler 2250 over to a new Moscode Amp. Shane had rolled in NOS RCA Tubes earlier in the day. I preferred the Moscode to the Butler but I think it may have been due to the tubes as there no other tubes in the system. The Moscode is a beautiful amp and I hope Steve can post his pictures so you can see how beautiful this amp is with tubes a glowing.
I will try to repeat my comments about the HT Room upstairs. Shane played a BluRay Demo disk that contains live performances of several artists. The quality of the video and music on Shane's system is just amazing. Anyone in the area considering a top tier HT System should contact Shane and make arrangements to see a demo of this system.
I always learn more at all of the G2G's and this one was no exception. Thanks again Shane!
-
A great time - wish I could have stayed longer! I echo what Steve and Ken said about the Mini Dancer IIs vs the PSB speakers. But, the PSBs were fast and dynamic - on some music, startling so, so I can see why many really like them. But, when all said and done, I'd far rather listen to the Ushers - more relaxed and musically engaging.
One minor experiment that was interesting.... I brought along my .6m Pangea AC-9. While we did not attempt to compare power cords, I did ask Shane to swap the JPS Digital AC cord with the Pangea. Can't remember which of the PS Audio components it was driving, but it was the only one within .6m of an outlet. I think we were all amazed at the immediate difference we heard... with the Pangea, the sound stage collapsed and, well, we all thought that the volume was lower - even tho it was set exactly the same. It may be a great bang-for-the-buck power cord for certain applications, but this wasn't one of them.
I also was totally blown away by Shane's upstairs HT setup - the ability to achieve that quality in such a small space is eye-opening. I'm already measuring my daughter's room for when she goes to college :pop
Shane, thanks for hosting another great G2G!
-
Sounds like you guys had another great G2G. If only RTP was a little more commutable from NYC.......
I think we were all amazed at the immediate difference we heard... with the Pangea, the sound stage collapsed and, well, we all thought that the volume was lower - even tho it was set exactly the same. It may be a great bang-for-the-buck power cord for certain applications, but this wasn't one of them.
In addition to the fact that there is a 10 to 1 price difference between the cords, for what it's worth, keep in mind that Pangea recommends the AC-9 for high current applications such as power amps. For digital components they recommend using the AC-14 which in addition to using lower gauge conductors also has a higher degree of shielding. I can't say that the 14 would have sounded any better in this particular situation, but it is what the manufacturer recommends
Just prior to the end of the evening Shane switched from the Butler 2250 over to a new Moscode Amp. Shane had rolled in NOS RCA Tubes earlier in the day. I preferred the Moscode to the Butler but I think it may have been due to the tubes as there no other tubes in the system. The Moscode is a beautiful amp and I hope Steve can post his pictures so you can see how beautiful this amp is with tubes a glowing.
As a twenty year Moscode owner (Moscode 600 with all of the George Kaye upgrades) I would have loved to heard George's latest creation. I briefly got to listen to one of the earlier versions of the current Moscode series, but not the newest. There is a reason why the original NYAL Mosscodes are still highly sought after two decades after the company closed its doors. And George has spent many years modernizing and refining the original designs, so I have no doubt that this is one knockout of an amp.
-
I would like to make a comment about the Panega AC-9 that Mike brought to the G2G. The cord reminded me of myself when I get to the golf course. I look great in the 19th hole but can't play worth a hoot. The AC-9 has the appearance of a kick-butt power cord, I mean this thing looks awesome. I know we all hope to find giant killers but in all honesty when the Panega was connected, with no other changes, the music died! The four of us were actually asking what was wrong, it made that much of a change. The volume setting on the DAC was digitally set to the same level so it was not a volume related issue. Maybe it would have been better connected to the amp???
Ken
-
Re: Pangea - all we can say with certainty is that the AC-9 did not work that night as a PC for the digital component. Unfortunately, given it's length we didn't try it on the amp and that would have been more enlightening. Others have claimed great things for the cord. On my home rig, feeding a PS Audio Juicebar II which, in turn, feeds the rest of the system, I do not find the dramatic difference that we heard at Shane's, but I do find a softening of the detail and slight increase in bass although I think it is less defined.
I bought it for a bedroom system (and, in truth, to see what all the buzz was about). Since my amp has a 20a IEC, I can't easily try it there so I suspect it will remain in the bedroom system. But Ken is right - the thing is a monster of a cord.
-
How long did the Moscode play? Anybody else have impressions on that amp? Which one and how much is it?
Rob
-
I'm afraid that was after I left so it was down to Steve, Ken and Shane at that point.
-
I assume it is the latest version, 402 Au with gold plated circuit board. $6500 as reviewed by Stereophile last September. Maybe Shane can bring it to my meet in a couple weeks.
http://www.moscode.com/
-
Yes it was the Moscode AU 402. Shane asked Steve and me if we wanted to hear the Moscode as the evening was winding down (surprisingly early). We said "sure" so Shane switched from the Butler 2250 over to the Moscode. We really did not make an A versus B comparison but felt the music was smoother, just a little less edge to it. While the Butler 2250 has a tube it sounds more like a traditional SS Amp, or I should say it sounds that way to me. The system we were listening to all evening was essentially all SS and when you add tubes (to a tube lover like me) I am going to prefer that sound 10 out of 10 times.
The MSRP difference between the Butler and the Moscode is approximately $3000 plus or minus. In my personal system I have a tube output stage on my source and I have a tube rectified Mapletree Preamp with Tung-Sol 6SN7 Round Plates. I would like to hear the Moscode and Butler comparison in my system to determine if I would still prefer the Moscode. At Shane's with the limited listening I would pick-out the Moscode blindfolded! If Shane has the time next Sunday when he brings my speakers home I may ask him if he can bring along the Moscode just for kicks and giggles. Hell, it is the only way to learn!
Ken
-
Have your check book ready, ken. :-P
Rob S.
-
First off, thanks to everyone that attended. It was great to see you all and swap stories again. I think getting together with friends talking about the hobby is the most enjoyable part of the whole thing, even moreso than the gear or music itself.
I want to send a specific huge thank you to Ken for letting me borrow back his Mini2s. I should finally have some showroom stock coming up when the distributor's order arrives. I'm looking forward to that! But for this meeting, it was wonderful to have the Mini2s here to compare with other new products.
It was a rather intimate gathering. Numerous folks had to cancel at the last minute, and some folks that had planned to attend ended up not showing. I can only assume things popped up for them as well. No worries, it made for a very enjoyable evening where we could chat about various subjects and not have to turn the music up to 110dB levels to listen over the racous crowds that sometimes show up here :)
The theme for the evening was more value priced electronics that still offer incredible performance for the price. The gear we listened to was selected mostly by the requests and interests of the folks that were attending and those who planned to attend. There were supposed to be folks from as far away as Virginia, Wilmington, New Bern, the mountains, Greensboro, Winston Salem, and a number of locals coming over to have a listen. They were all of a generally similar mind on the price points of product they were interested in and I chose accordingly.
The majority of the evening was spent listening to the PS Audio PerfectWave DAC fed by the PS Audio PerfectWave Transport and my audio PC via M2Tech Hiface USB-SPDIF converter. For some reason, after the M2Tech Hiface was added to my PC, my regular Lynx L22 card that is also installed will no longer output anything other than 16/44.1. I'm still troubleshooting that one. Something else to put on the list to figure out what the heck is conflicting and going on there. The PS Audio PerfectWave DAC was feeding the Butler Audio TDB-2250 most of the evening direct with volume control done with the DAC. Cabling was a single set of JPS Labs Superconductor 3 interconnects and SuperConductor3 speaker cables. We did eventually bring in the Moscode 402 Au amplifier later in the evening so folks could compare with the Butler. Lots of other amp options here, but to be perfectly honest, I wanted to keep the swapping down to a minimum and just listen to some tunes on a couple different setups. Based on the folks that I knew were showing up, and based on some listening I did Friday night and Saturday morning, I thought these would be the most well received combos of gear so that the total package of sound hit on some things that people would like. if others had shown up, I'm sure we would have swapped in other gear, specifically the Belles pieces as I think they are fantastic, just not the same kind of tone as the pieces we used.
No scientific comparisons were done. Just general listening. We used a variety of material including disks that folks brought, some of my own disks, a few HRx recordings I have, and some 24/96 material I had bought earlier on Saturday to try out. My apologies again to the attendees for the time wasted on getting disks burnt to play on the transport. I figured out my blunder when you left. The Transport requires UDF 2.0 format burns... I didn't have that set correctly on my machines as I use UDF 2.5 and UDF 2.6 most of the time.
The evening started by playing a series of disks/tracks using the Usher Mini2s with Diamond tweeters installed, then swapping out for the PSB Synchrony One's and playing the same tracks over again. By that point, most everyone had arrived for the evening. So we listened a little more with the PSBs and then swapped back in the Usher Mini2s. The early attendees got to hear Usher first, then PSB, then back to Usher. Others only heard PSB then to Usher. Based on feedback, the Ushers stayed in the system the rest of the evening.
I did a demonstration of my little theater room for folks. The better half and I are still duking it out over seating for the room and I need to replace the rack in there to something else. Otherwise, it's finally settling in to be a modestly priced setup that really works well given the space constraints. JVC DLA-RS25 projector is the big outlier as far as cost is concerned. But if I was going to blow the budget, this was the place to blow it. The black levels on the JVC make active masking on the screen almost unnecessary. Screen is a 100" Stewart Firehawk fixed frame model. The Firehawk material helps during the day because it is not light controlled in that room. Electronics were the Oppo BDP-83 blu-ray player, my HTPC streaming content, the marantz AV8003 prepro, Butler TDB-5150 amp, JPS Labs UltraConductor II entry level interconnects and speaker cables all around, PSB Speakers Imagine towers, center, and dipole on wall surround with the HD10 subwoofer. I have the Audyssey Pro Sub EQ in there since the marantz doesn't do room correction on the new uncompressed formats. All told, at full MSRP for everything, it's ~$20K with the JVC projector accounting for $8K of that full sticker price. As a package deal, it obviously would be a better price than that. However, it is a stunningly good setup that is very immersive. This is one area where I get absolutely no objections from the better half. She loves watching movies on this setup. You can get very competent video from some of the LCD based units for far less than the $8K MSRP JVC. It won't have the black level and realism, but for those that think even $20K is outrageous for this kind of setup, there are ways to do it for less and still get close to the same thing.
After the theater demo, we came back down to the 2 channel room to listen a bit more. We wanted to compare the PS Audio PerfectWave DAC with the Oracle DAC1000. So we listened to tracks on the PerfectWave, then swapped in the Oracle and listened again. The Oracle, at >2X the MSRP price, is still king. I've never had it beaten in any shootout or comparison we've done here locally. It's just an incredible piece. Period. But the PS Audio held it's own better than anything else I've tried in the past 9 months..... and I've had quite a few DACs through here during that period. More DACs than I care to remember, to be honest. It's really quite good for the money. Knowing a customer would have to spend >2X as much to improve it with the Oracle is reassuring. I'm pretty sure the PS Audio stuff is going to stick around as it's really good stuff for the money and offers enough flexibility to be useful for a wide range of customers. Once the network bridge is released, it's going to be *the* product to have as it's music streaming capability will be a better performer than the Logitech products, imo. At that point, its convenience will even make me forget about the Oracle... well....almost anyways :) Mike is the king in the area as his digital setup is quite something now with the stuff he's bought from me :)
After the DAC comparison, we did the Pangea swap. I could have put it on the Butler amp if I moved the amp... the DAC was the easiest swap that required only a couple seconds to plug and unplug with the current power cord in use, a JPS Labs Digital AC. No, this was far from a scientific comparison. But it didn't take double blind testing to hear the impact of swapping the cords. The Pangea was god awful and just destroyed the music when inserted. None of us wanted to even bother listening or putting it in other situations after only a few minutes of listening to it. Out it came and the music came back to life.
We then swapped tweeters on the Usher Mini2s, going back to the beryllium alloy tweeters from the new Diamonds. The new Diamonds are better... somehow finding a way to be more resolving, while at the same time being more relaxed. The Be tweeter is very good... but the Diamond was more to everyone's liking.
Next came the swap of amps. The Moscode 402 Au is an incredibly flexible amp. It can take a very wide range of 9 pin tubes in it's 4 slots. The sound is then infinitely tunable to your system. There's a lot of adjustment in this amp to make it sound just the way you want it to sound with your combination of gear just by swapping the tubes. On this night, I made the amp pretty lush sounding with my tube choices. We could spend a good portion of a meeting just listening to the amp with different tube combinations.
As is always the case in this hobby, the audio side of things is very subjective. No one hears the same, no one likes the same kind of sound. What one person thinks is unlistenable, another thinks is just perfect. The same held true with our listening on Saturday. The majority of folks seemed to prefer the Usher sound on the Mini2s. But a couple guys in attendance preferred the sound of the PSB Synchrony One. They are *very* different sounding speakers. They present the soundstage in a very different way.. Imaging is very different, the tonal balance is very different. One isn't necessarily better or more right, just different. For some musical styles and some listening methods, I can definitely see why some prefer PSB. I can also see why others prefer Usher. Overall, the only real conclusion to draw is that I think both offer tremendous value and are great sounding products for a much more modest price than a lot of the speakers out there.
Thanks again to everyone that attended. It was great to see you. I can't wait to do it all again soon!
-
If Shane has the time next Sunday when he brings my speakers home I may ask him if he can bring along the Moscode just for kicks and giggles. Hell, it is the only way to learn!
Ken,
Yes, I will bring it along next week to do an in home listening session.
Which reminds me... for anyone local that missed the get together this weekend, Ken was kind enough to let me watch my hockey game yesterday instead of returning his speakers. he's going out of town next weekend and is out of town all week for work. So I have the Mini2s until next Sunday afternoon. If you want to hear them before I return them, give me a buzz....
Thanks again Ken!
Shane
-
Good times Shane - thanks for letting a decidedly video guy crash the party. It was all very informative. I'm just sorry I couldn't stay for longer.
-
Welcome Vigga!!