Author Topic: what does pressurizing a room mean  (Read 13083 times)

Offline Nick B

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2018, 12:43:37 PM »
As I continue to digress a bit from the original topic, I spoke with Fritz Heiler today and what a nice guy he is. I mentioned some speakers and he has heard my old SP Techs along with the Audience1+1 v2s and Evolution Acoustic Micro Ones. In fact, the EA designer Kevin uses the same series crossover design methodology that Fritz uses on his Carrera BEs. I did a little bit of name dropping mentioning that I knew Charles Rollo as Charles carries the Fritz. So I will likely audition the Fritz and am still thinking about the others. I’m a fan of listening to new speakers, but the idea of boxing stuff up and sending it back to the manufacturers I don’t much care for. Also spoke with an EA dealer in California and he was quite a nice guy and a very straight shooter. I do have a threshhold for listening to bs, but today I thankfully didn’t encounter it.

  Pump some iron young Man. Not that heavy. You will not be disappointed.  :thumb:



charles

The Fritzes aren’t heavy, but the Evolution Acoustics shipping weight is 198 lbs in two wooden crates. The base on the special stands on which the speakers are bolted must weigh a lot....I’m guessing 60 lbs each. So that would be a royal pita. Now that I got my Silver Sneakers card I need to head to the gym and bulk up 🏋🏻‍♂️
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline Nick B

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2018, 10:04:27 PM »
a couple of other ideas popped into my head regarding speakers.  aurum cantus - i have never heard them, but they get great reviews, and they do have an excellent ribbon tweeter.  and the cabinetry is gorgeous

http://cattylink.com/page231.html



and a usa dealer:
https://www.audiophile-direct.com/collections/stand-mount


and these, which i ran across, because i was searching for aurum cantus; and they use the aurum cantus ribbon tweeters:
roksan darius s1 - also fabulous looking.  and about $7k retail w/stands.


reviews:
http://hifipig.com/roksan-darius-s1-standmount-speakers/
https://www.whathifi.com/roksan/darius-s1/review
a pair on ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Roksan-Darius-S1-Reference-Loudspeakers-What-HIFI-5/112849904743?epid=10015959380&hash=item1a4660e467:g:rX0AAOSwURxanDyP


then, there's piega coax standmounts; attractive in a different way.  and i know they will sound fantastic, because i have a pair of their older floorstanders, which are actually very similar, but go a few hz lower as they have dual woofers, and they also are a few db more efficient.

my piega's:


piega standmounts:

the coax 10.2's  have great specs, and the coax ribbon driver is truly amazing.  the midrange ribbon crosses over to the woofer at something like 450hz, and the midrange/tweeter coax driver x-over is at ~3.5khz.  their specs:
Recommended amplifier output - 20 - 200 Watt
Sensitivity - 90 db / W / m
Impedance - 4 ohms
Frequency range: 36 Hz - 50 kHz
Dimensions (H x W x D) - 41 x 19 x 22 cm
Weight - 13 kg
Design principle - Compact 3-way speaker
Equipment: 1 x 15 cm bass, 1 x C2 coaxial mid/tweeter
Connection - Bi-Wiring / WBT
Drawings - Aluminum cabinet, black metal grill, optional: silver grill, black anodized cabinet, white painted cabinet

on ebay (seems a bit on the spendy side, but maybe not, as they retailed for ~$7.7k):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/282793104599?rmvSB=true

on private listings (seems too good to be true?):
https://www.quoka.de/hifi-audio-tv-video-foto/boxen-lautsprecher-kopfhoerer/c7265a195202191/paar-piega-coax-10-2.html
http://www.annunci.net/firenze/audio-tv-video/piega-coax-102-speakers-2215971

if the two private listings are legit - ie: if they will accept paypal and/or a credit card, i'd just buy them if i were in your present situation.

doug s.

Doug,
You sure come up with some interesting stuff in your research. Buying something like the used Piegas
would be a big gamble based on my recent history with the Nolas and single drivers. It’s a big plus though that you and Carlman both have/had Piegas. I will mention that my max budget for speakers is $3,500.
Now, the Aurum Cantus V30s look very interesting and the price is right. I read two reviews .....
the one from Enjoy the Music more glowing than the 2nd. The 2nd reviewer had minor negative comments on the midrange and bass. On that review, I kept thinking he still hadnt found the right amp for them. The quality of the drivers appears excellent. The price includes shipping AND a 60 day return policy. The quality and appearance are excellent. So this China based based product with an American distributor looks like the real deal. I do wonder if adding the right sub would give even better results.
Regarding the REL subs I was looking at, I still like the smaller footprint and I very much like how the sub is designed. By that I mean that the REL has a speakon connector that has three wires...two + and one -  Each + is connected to the + terminal on the R L of the amp. The - is connected to either the R or L - Now, I like that quite a bit as it appears other subs require that the speakers wires connect to the sub and imo that’s a big pita..at least for me. The REL also offers wireless for the sub. Now that’s another very convenient feature. I do have a small living room, but the ability to not have to route a long wire direct to the sub is nice.
Another thing regarding your recommendations on cheap subs. Does it really make sense to use one or two cheap subs when partnering with speakers that use high quality drivers. I ask because I have no experience with subs. Never...nada.
So let me know what you think.
Thanks,
Nick
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 10:12:26 PM by Nick B »
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline tmazz

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2018, 07:04:57 AM »
Nick be very careful with cheap subs. There are a lot of cheap subs out there that are aimed at the Home Theater market, which has much looser SQ requirements than we have for music. In a HT system the sub pretty much  is used to provide impact. It doesn't need to be of the highest quality as long as it gets you attention. For example, when you are just reproducing the dinosaur thumps as the T-Tex is chasing someone in Jurassic Park or explosions during the attack scenes in  Pearl Harbor sound quality can be secondary to the visceral effect. As long as the bass shakes the floor and hits you in the chest it will do just fine (for the most part.) Many of these subs to just fine when watching movies, but fall far short when used to reproduce music. In sound effects the impact of the boom is the primary objective. However in a high end audio situation we want much more. When listening to tympani drums in and orchestral piece pure impact is not enough we also wand to hear speed and articulation in that we should distinctly be able to hear the impact of the drum hit separate from the resonance of the drum itself and be able to track the rise and fall time of the sound. When listening to something like a Ray Brown bass solo we want the resolution to hear all of the individual note stand on there own instead of  being mushy and just running into one another.

The bottom line here is that cheap bass is easy, but rarely very good and good bass is hard to do and in most case hard equates to $$$.

IMO opinion while stereo subs is always a desirable situation, you would be much better off with a single high quality sub as opposed to a pair of cheap ones.

Also keep in mind that subs are strange creatures and there optimal placement rarely coincides with what out other halves would consider pleasing from a decorating point of view. So if you don't have a dedicated room where you would have the freedom to place the subs anywhere they need to be, you might just be better off having one and keep the disagreements to a minimum. As someone who move from a house with a dedicated listening space that was all mine to do what I wanted with to a house where the only place to put the system is in the Living Room I am dealing with this kind of issue all the time not only with subs, but also with speaker placement in general, acoustic treatments etc. I deal with this kind of thing all the time.

I ended up getting a pair of Carver True Subwoofer Super Jrs which are small and I can tuck them somewhat out of sight. I know there are places in the room that they would sound better, but...........

I actually started out getting one, but a few months after I got the first one a second one popped up on eBay for a stupidly cheap price so I couldn't not give it a try.  :roll:

Had it not been for that I would have been OK with one.

Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline Nick B

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2018, 11:54:36 AM »
I appreciate both comments about the subs. I’m always learning and picking up new information. As I’ve mentioned previously, I want a small footprint and limited weight in all my audio decisions. Because of a family medical situation....my wife and brother are dealing with cancer, I may have to move at some point in the future and the more I can handle and do myself, the better. Because of my back surgery, I try and be smart about moving and lifting things. So it’s easier for me to lift my 65  lb McCormack amp than it is to lift the 40 lb Nola sub that I had. It’s easier for me to lift and maneuver a monitor than a floorstander. The Nola is larger in size and therefore makes it harder. Smaller is what I want and that’s not going to change.
Trying to make these decisions about speakers and subs is why I post here and call the manufacturers. REL advised to not use their smallest sub and go with their T7i.
As to how to hook up subs, I really don’t know. As I had quite the complication from knee surgery, Gary drove up and hooked up the Nola for me. I thought the speaker cables went to the sub and then more speaker cables to the amp. That’s what I remember. I was however quite sick and it appears I’m way off base on that.
 Don’t get me wrong, I love a great bargain, but I’m trying to make a purchase for the long term. At this point in my life, I’m not into tinkering and replacing equipment every one to two years. I’d like to enjoy stuff. Life is short. And if I need to pay more to accomplish that, i will pay it. So I can’t buy the excellent drivers and build my own cabinet and be done for $1,000. However, I may be able to replace my McCormack with a Folsom amp for a great price based on what Danny and Dave E are saying.
To conclude, I’ve learned so much more about audio in the last two years and much of that is from this forum. Gary has made me ic’s and power cords that are superb. Dave’s Uber is phenomenal. So
it’s an especially fun time to be in this hobby
Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline tmazz

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2018, 09:38:33 PM »
Doug I don't disagree withe you "up to a point" at all. I was just speaking in generalities, but I always leave room for the possibility of a product that just performs was about it'' prioce point. They are rare, but they're out there.

But I think that any of us who have been in this hobby for any length of time develop a sense of what can generally be expected out of products  selling at various price points and I was just talking in general about what you could expect from most of the subs at the lower end of the price spectrum vs what you can get by spending a bit more money. I was speaking about lower priced subs as a class and did not mean to imply that everything in that general price vicinity would sound that was.

By all means keep looking for those golden nuggets that play way outside of their leagues. Hey, that's what we do as audiophiles, try to get the best performance we can given out system budgets. and finding that great bargain piece is just like hitting that perfect gold drive. I may only happen once in a blue moon, but the possibility of it happening again is what keeps us coming back.
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline tmazz

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2018, 02:30:56 PM »
tmazz, on the opposite end of the spectrum are companies with high prices, where the only advantage you get is to boast how much money you spent!   8)

doug s.

Sad, but true. I can't tell you how many times I have walked into a room at an audio show and heard six figure systems that not only did not sound good relative to the price, but IMO did not sound good PERIOD.

Of course there a plenty of big ticket items that sound great, just not all of them.
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline richidoo

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2018, 05:27:40 PM »
Hard to make anything sound good at a show. That's why I rarely go anymore. The gear is brand new, no break in, and a small portion know how to or have the time to place speakers well. I don't judge gear based on what's heard in a show. There are plenty of ways a demo rig can go belly up that's not their fault.

But if a company has been selling very expensive gear for many years and growing bigger all along then you can bet there is good value there, even if you can't perceive it. No company can survive, much less in extreme niche luxury hobby business, without their customers perceiving good value. That doesn't mean everyone can appreciate what is being offered or its value. There are plenty of products intended to appeal to everyone, we need more weird stuff to keep things interesting.

Offline Nick B

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Re: what does pressurizing a room mean
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2018, 07:17:52 PM »
nick - i have never heard these.  but i've always wanted to, just because of what i've read about 'em.  they might be of interest to you; the prices are right as they're used.

ATC SMC19 Gen2:
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8fe1e-atc-smc19-gen2-speakers-cherry-monitors



great reviews:
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/atc-scm19-loudspeaker-1/
http://hifipig.com/atc-scm19-loudspeaker/
https://www.whathifi.com/atc/scm19/review#node-content-start
s'phile gave them "class a" - restricted extreme low frequency, in for 2014; only one other speaker in that ranking was less than the atc's $4.3k retail price - the $1.5k kef ls50's.  i own ls50's; they are sweet...)
https://www.stereophile.com/content/2014-recommended-components-fall-edition-loudspeakers

alternate atc's - more expensive, but self-powered - important w/this brand, as their speakers crave power:
http://tmraudio.com/speakers/bookshelf-monitors/atc-scm20-2-powered-bookshelf-speakers-scm20-2a-pair-active-monitors/
(the same dealer also has them listed on agon, for $200 more, go figure)


review:
https://positive-feedback.com/Issue39/atc_scm20.htm
manual:
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/atc/scm20-2a.shtml

good luck w/your search,
doug s.

Hey Doug,
I have heard of ATC and I think they were mentioned on the Whats Best forum. I’ve been researching the Aurum Cantus that you mentioned and in particular the pricier  Volla MK 2 model. Some videos on YouTube about ACantus there and a number of positive comments online on their tweeters. It’s pricier at $3,150 and the distributor Roger offers a 60 day trial. Geez, I’d love to have a top notch non-fatiguing tweeter amongst other things. I’ll check out these ads tonight. I’d likely be doing a trial soon, but heading to So California next week for some family visits.
Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS