Author Topic: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers  (Read 32403 times)

Offline mresseguie

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2019, 06:38:23 AM »
Good morning, Jack.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I guess my curiosity stems from my having a pair of Daedalus Apollos (3-way with a 10" woofer). The sound is marvelous. I think I want to recreate that sound, but in a less expensive pair of speakers. It's not so much that I'm trying to stretch down to ~20Hz. It's more the idea of improving the midwoofer's overall efficiency and sound by cutting its load in the lower frequencies.

If I bought such a three-way speaker for our home in Oregon, it would be placed in our TV room whose cubic foot size is huge because of the open floor plan - kitchen, breakfast nook, family room + cathedral ceiling. My single F12G is insufficient - two may not be enough. Trying to add more subwoofers butts up against the dreaded WAF.

The Apollos have spoiled me, and changed how I think about speakers even though most of the music that I enjoy listening to is well covered by the Carreras.

Michael

Daedalus Audio Apollos; Fritz Loudspeakers LS/5-R
SW1X NOS DAC III BAL/SPL; Holo Spring3 KTE
Don Sachs Model 2 preamp
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Offline Jack

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2019, 01:20:10 PM »
Michael

While probably not as big an area to fill as yours my Family Room is a little over 5500 cubit feet with an 8' foot opening in the rear to the Kitchen/Breakfast Room and an opening to the Foyer in the back left so still a bit of space to fill.  I found the Carrera's and two F12G's to do the job admirably.  I had the Carrera's seven feet apart on 24'" black wooden Tyler Acoustics stands.  The two subs were placed just to the inside of the stands and a few inches back crossed at 50 hz.  With the speakers being in a Tiger Ebony finish there are enough black stripes in the veneer to blend in with the subs and stands so not presenting an image much different than a wide baffle floor standing speaker.  While the sub placement was probably not ideal like your situation this is a public access space so some consideration must be given to WAF unlike in my enclosed dedicated room.  I bought the Tyler stands years ago on AC for a really good price though currently they are pretty pricey new.  An acceptable alternative are the stands from Ascend Acoustics which are also square pillar MDF and fillable.

http://ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/access/spkstnds/pedstlcmt340.html

So if you use two black F12's and the stands in matte black along with a complimentary veneer and place them similar to how I had them I suspect it might pass the WAF test. Show her the stands and subs and let her pick the veneer for the Carrera's that she thinks works.
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Offline mresseguie

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2019, 03:42:01 PM »
Doug & Jack,

Thank you.

In my imagination, I was trying to add bass and reducing the load on the woofers by recreating new 'super' Carreras by combining Carreras with <for example> CSS-Audio's 10" woofers into a single floorstanding cabinet. That would require a new cabinet ($$$), new XO ($$$), and paying someone to design them ($$$). Buying one more F12G + a pair of Carreras must be a heckuva lot cheaper.

Now, how do I get my wife to say yes? Hmm. Sell ALL of my excess gear, take her on a trip to Europe, and I may have to buy her a new car.  :shock:

« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 03:44:20 PM by mresseguie »
Daedalus Audio Apollos; Fritz Loudspeakers LS/5-R
SW1X NOS DAC III BAL/SPL; Holo Spring3 KTE
Don Sachs Model 2 preamp
Don Sachs dual mono 300b; Nuprime Evolution STA
Hapa loom
PI Audio UberBUSS, DigiBUSS, Uber-MiniBUS

Offline Jack

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2019, 04:15:18 PM »
Michael

If Fritz put two Revelator woofers and the Be tweeter in a floor standing cabinet you might get the speaker that fits the bill.  Would be similar to what Klaus did when he went from the Kismet monitor to the Liquid. 
JVC QL-Y7 w/ Denon DL-301 Mk II
Vista Phono II
Jays Audio CDT3 Mk III
Supratek Cabernet
Kinki Studio EX-B7's
Holo Audio May KTE
Auralic Aries G1
Verity Otello
(2) Rythmik F12SE
TWL PC's
Audio Envy IC, PC, SC
Inakustik USB, I2S
PSA Stellar P3
Uberbuss

Offline Folsom

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2019, 07:10:49 PM »
Fritz's crossover method doesn't work with 3 ways.

An MTM is the limit to adding drivers really.

Active bass can be added. I'm curious if it's possible to do this kind of crossover with larger woofers like 12's or 15's and a compression driver... that would be interesting. That would be potentially worth paying to have developed.

Offline mresseguie

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2019, 07:26:40 PM »
Fritz's crossover method doesn't work with 3 ways.

An MTM is the limit to adding drivers really.

Active bass can be added. I'm curious if it's possible to do this kind of crossover with larger woofers like 12's or 15's and a compression driver... that would be interesting. That would be potentially worth paying to have developed.

That helps explain why he sells two-ways!

Thank you.

Daedalus Audio Apollos; Fritz Loudspeakers LS/5-R
SW1X NOS DAC III BAL/SPL; Holo Spring3 KTE
Don Sachs Model 2 preamp
Don Sachs dual mono 300b; Nuprime Evolution STA
Hapa loom
PI Audio UberBUSS, DigiBUSS, Uber-MiniBUS

Offline Jack

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2019, 07:47:56 PM »
Michael

I wonder what it would do if he added 24-26" to the cabinet height sealed from the passive components with another powered Revelator driver though I don't think he can go much larger as there is just under an inch on either side of the current driver.  Klaus is using two of the same driver in the Liquid with the second one on the bottom in a separate compartment and getting mid 20's response out of them.  I was getting -6 db at 25 hz from the Lorelei's in the larger cabinet with just one.  The Liquid's front baffle is only 1" larger and that includes those rolled edges. He could use one of the Hypex modules like Clayton is using in the new X series. Might be worth asking to see what he prices it out at.  Might eliminate adding anymore subs other than what you have with your F12 crossed over at around 40 hz just for the presence factor.
JVC QL-Y7 w/ Denon DL-301 Mk II
Vista Phono II
Jays Audio CDT3 Mk III
Supratek Cabernet
Kinki Studio EX-B7's
Holo Audio May KTE
Auralic Aries G1
Verity Otello
(2) Rythmik F12SE
TWL PC's
Audio Envy IC, PC, SC
Inakustik USB, I2S
PSA Stellar P3
Uberbuss

Offline Folsom

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #67 on: December 07, 2019, 08:03:13 PM »
You can't really compare Fritz to others too much. But I'm sure an MTM with a larger cabinet would get lower. I'd want the headroom from an MTM if I wanted it to play lower, but then again 35hz is plenty low enough IMO, until you add some active subs.

Offline Jack

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2019, 08:56:31 PM »
Not comparing Fritz to Klaus as I am aware that the crossover designs are completely different.  My point was that in a cabinet 24" taller and a similar baffle size that Klaus is using two of the same driver to get into the mid-20's.  Whether it would be easier for Fritz to do with both drivers passive or one active would be a decision for him to make.  Whatever would get Michael the bass response he needs along with the WAF. Even though the Carrera's have been replaced in the FR system with the Nola KO's which do mid 20's on their own the two Rythmik subs are still in play with the crossover reduced. The KO's are using two 7" SEAS drivers in separate compartments with the mid's and tweeters open baffle.
JVC QL-Y7 w/ Denon DL-301 Mk II
Vista Phono II
Jays Audio CDT3 Mk III
Supratek Cabernet
Kinki Studio EX-B7's
Holo Audio May KTE
Auralic Aries G1
Verity Otello
(2) Rythmik F12SE
TWL PC's
Audio Envy IC, PC, SC
Inakustik USB, I2S
PSA Stellar P3
Uberbuss

Offline Nick B

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #69 on: December 08, 2019, 12:50:25 AM »
It’s really late here....as I’ve been up listening to the Fritzes. Still improving  :thumb:
Anyway, just got caught up reading this thread. Fritz can build all kinds of stuff. See this link and nearly all the way down on the left. I was just thinking tonight that if I moved and had more space, I’d have Fritz build me bigger speakers.

http://fritzspeakers.com/
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Offline mresseguie

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #70 on: December 08, 2019, 07:02:48 AM »
This is turning into a really interesting brain-storming idea thread.  :thumb:

What led me down this path was that I made an impulse buy of a brand new pair of CSS-Audio LD25X tweeters. The first 40 pairs were available at a nice discount to get, so I jumped on a pair without much thought on what I wanted in a pair of speakers. Once they were in my hot little hands, I began thinking about what kind of speakers I wanted. I quickly decided that I wanted a nice midrange driver and an 8" to 10" woofer. For cabinets, I'm pretty certain I want stand-mounted speakers - perhaps 24 to 26" tall by 9" to 12" wide. Depth - thanks to my TV cabinet's depth - could be as much as 22".

Before Nick began this thread about Carreras, I had already tentatively tightened my midrange driver choices to a Satori mid, a Revelator mid, and an AT mid. I'm still fishing for a woofer.

Now, I've never heard the LD25X tweeter. I've heard its little brother - the 22mm driver, but I haven't compared its sound to other tweeters. I don't know how committed I am to using the LD25X for this idea. I know for a fact that I like the tweeter in the Fritz LS/5-R speakers. It's the same one that Fritz uses in his Rev 7 SE speakers. This led me to wonder if I could get Fritz (or another speaker designer) to modify a pair of Carreras or Rev 7 SEs by adding a big woofer to make a three-way. [I know. Call Fritz to chat with him. I eventually will, but not from 5000 miles away.]

That's all for the moment. My wife and I are departing ATL for Taiwan in a few hours (with a 6-hour wait in SeaTac) for our connecting flight to Taiwan. I don't have adequate time to fully explain my thinking right now, so I'll try to follow up later - perhaps while we're languishing at SeaTac.

Michael
« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 07:52:21 AM by mresseguie »
Daedalus Audio Apollos; Fritz Loudspeakers LS/5-R
SW1X NOS DAC III BAL/SPL; Holo Spring3 KTE
Don Sachs Model 2 preamp
Don Sachs dual mono 300b; Nuprime Evolution STA
Hapa loom
PI Audio UberBUSS, DigiBUSS, Uber-MiniBUS

Offline Nick B

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #71 on: December 08, 2019, 11:56:41 AM »
This is turning into a really interesting brain-storming idea thread.  :thumb:

What led me down this path was that I made an impulse buy of a brand new pair of CSS-Audio LD25X tweeters. The first 40 pairs were available at a nice discount to get, so I jumped on a pair without much thought on what I wanted in a pair of speakers. Once they were in my hot little hands, I began thinking about what kind of speakers I wanted. I quickly decided that I wanted a nice midrange driver and an 8" to 10" woofer. For cabinets, I'm pretty certain I want stand-mounted speakers - perhaps 24 to 26" tall by 9" to 12" wide. Depth - thanks to my TV cabinet's depth - could be as much as 22".

Before Nick began this thread about Carreras, I had already tentatively tightened my midrange driver choices to a Satori mid, a Revelator mid, and an AT mid. I'm still fishing for a woofer.

Now, I've never heard the LD25X tweeter. I've heard its little brother - the 22mm driver, but I haven't compared its sound to other tweeters. I don't know how committed I am to using the LD25X for this idea. I know for a fact that I like the tweeter in the Fritz LS/5-R speakers. It's the same one that Fritz uses in his Rev 7 SE speakers. This led me to wonder if I could get Fritz (or another speaker designer) to modify a pair of Carreras or Rev 7 SEs by adding a big woofer to make a three-way. [I know. Call Fritz to chat with him. I eventually will, but not from 5000 miles away.]

That's all for the moment. My wife and I are departing ATL for Taiwan in a few hours (with a 6-hour wait in SeaTac) for our connecting flight to Taiwan. I don't have adequate time to fully explain my thinking right now, so I'll try to follow up later - perhaps while we're languishing at SeaTac.

Michael

OK, Michael. I’m curious as to the rest of your thoughts  :thumb:
Nick
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline Folsom

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #72 on: December 08, 2019, 03:27:55 PM »
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?

Offline Nick B

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Re: Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #73 on: December 08, 2019, 06:51:43 PM »
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?

Fritz told me casually he can make bigger speakers, but they’ll be “kind of heavy”.          I believe he wires the crossover in series. As I’ve previously mentioned, I don’t know that much technically. I do recall as a child many years ago, that our Christmas tree lights were wired in series. It was rather tedious and sometimes very time-consuming to find the burned out bulb(s)
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline Guy 13

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Fritz Carrera 7 BE or Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers
« Reply #74 on: December 08, 2019, 07:56:23 PM »
You can ask Fritz but his crossover style is incompatible with 3 ways. It would be hard to call it a Fritz afterwards.

Designing a crossover for a speaker is challenging because you really have to measure in box.

What are the goals for the sound of the speaker?

Fritz told me casually he can make bigger speakers, but they’ll be “kind of heavy”.          I believe he wires the crossover in series. As I’ve previously mentioned, I don’t know that much technically. I do recall as a child many years ago, that our Christmas tree lights were wired in series. It was rather tedious and sometimes very time-consuming to find the burned out bulb(s)

Hi Nick.
If the Christmas light bulbs were wired in series it's not easy to find which one is burnt,
because they all go out at the same time.
So, I agree with you.

Guy 13
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prior to moving back to Canada.