AudioNervosa

Systemic Development => Analog Devices => Topic started by: S Clark on March 31, 2020, 05:23:41 PM

Title: Sutherland 20/20 phono preamp
Post by: S Clark on March 31, 2020, 05:23:41 PM
Any of you ever heard the Sutherland phono preamps?  A buddy just pulled the trigger on the 20/20 and is making great claims.  Under usual circumstances, I'd just pay him a visit and listen for myself... but these aren't normal circumstances. 
Anyone ever put one in their system?
Title: Re: Sutherland 20/20 phono preamp
Post by: Folsom on March 31, 2020, 09:47:20 PM
I'd like to. They certainly have some marketing that isn't really beneficial in a physical form but looks nice. What I don't get is no selectable capacitance loading?
Title: Re: Sutherland 20/20 phono preamp
Post by: Nick B on April 01, 2020, 10:18:48 AM
Don’t know anyone who has tried one. Pretty sure I met him at a CES years ago. Took time to speak with me. Nice guy. Here’s the link to that phono preamp

https://sutherlandengineering.com/products/2020/
Title: Re: Sutherland 20/20 phono preamp
Post by: HAL on April 01, 2020, 12:49:34 PM
Some cartridges need not only a resistive load (like you have shown), but also a capacitive one like moving magnets for flatest response.
Title: Re: Sutherland 20/20 phono preamp
Post by: HAL on April 01, 2020, 02:22:30 PM
Not always.  My Shure Ultra500 cartridge needs 47K Ohms and 250pF loading and the SME 3009 arm cables have 110pF, so have to add 140pF more in the preamp.
Title: Re: Sutherland 20/20 phono preamp
Post by: HAL on April 01, 2020, 04:16:34 PM
With my Shure MM yes, I heard a difference in the high end. 

MC cartridges will be different.
Title: Re: Sutherland 20/20 phono preamp
Post by: S Clark on April 01, 2020, 04:36:28 PM
So I need to know the inductance and capacitance needs of the cartridge, then the values of the headshell wires, then the values of the phono cable, then the values of the interconnect before I can the phono pre set for optimum performance... :shock:

I'm beginning to feel like Groucho in this scene from "Horsefeathers"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMC3QwMtQk0
Title: Re: Sutherland 20/20 phono preamp
Post by: HAL on April 01, 2020, 06:37:53 PM
If you are using MC cartridges the load resistance is the important parameter to find.  They usually put it in the specs as recommended load resistance.   

Most MM cartridges need 47K Ohm loads typically.  The load capacitance is a spec from the mfg.  I just use my capacitance meter to check the cable to headshell wires.  A lot of DMM's now measure capacitance as well.

A test LP will let you check frequency response. 

You do not need the inductance measurements. 



Title: Re: Sutherland 20/20 phono preamp
Post by: Putz on April 01, 2020, 09:20:36 PM
Former Sutherland owner here. I had the PH3D model ($1,000) for about 5 years and it was a great unit for the price. Ran on 16 D batteries, used Op Amps and gain/load settings were adjustable using jumpers.

Ron Sutherland specializes in phono preamps and knows what he is doing. If one of his units suits your needs, definitely worth checking out. Finally met him at CAF last year and got to thank him for the enjoyment his phono stage brought me.

As my system evolved it was time to upgrade and I tried multiple pricier ones that did not seem worth the expense. Finally settled on a Zesto Andros that went for almost $5k new. Sold the PH3D the first day I listed it for sale. My ad of course mentioned "batteries not included".
Title: Re: Sutherland 20/20 phono preamp
Post by: Nick B on April 01, 2020, 10:03:21 PM
Former Sutherland owner here. I had the PH3D model ($1,000) for about 5 years and it was a great unit for the price. Ran on 16 D batteries, used Op Amps and gain/load settings were adjustable using jumpers.

Ron Sutherland specializes in phono preamps and knows what he is doing. If one of his units suits your needs, definitely worth checking out. Finally met him at CAF last year and got to thank him for the enjoyment his phono stage brought me.

As my system evolved it was time to upgrade and I tried multiple pricier ones that did not seem worth the expense. Finally settled on a Zesto Andros that went for almost $5k new. Sold the PH3D the first day I listed it for sale. My ad of course mentioned "batteries not included".

Ah, yes, I remember that unit with all those D batteries.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/sutherland-ph3d-phonostage/
Title: Re: Sutherland 20/20 phono preamp
Post by: Folsom on April 01, 2020, 10:18:27 PM
I actually think the Sumiko Pearl is a fantastic MM with a little bit of adjustments (shim upgrade, remove useless front plate, damp stylus plastic a little). It doesn't need any extra capacitance generally.
Title: Re: Sutherland 20/20 phono preamp
Post by: mrubey on May 18, 2020, 08:17:30 PM
Hi guys,
I'm new here. First post.
I have a Sutherland 20/20 with the upgraded power supply. It's my fourth phono stage and I have no intention of changing again unless a huge windfall comes my way. My first phonostage was a Decware ZP3. It was fantastic and is probably the best MM phono stage for its price. But, like many things it was the first so a boy must explore further. I next bought an Audion linestage/phonostage. I could not get rid of a buzzing sound. Sent the thing all over trying to find a problem, every tech said it was perfect. Finally returned it for refund. It didn't like my house.
I next bought a Chinook. I know it's everyone's favorite but I actually liked the Decware better. All during these changes I'm also changing other things one of which was selling my Audion 2A3 amp and buying one of the very last First Watt SIT 3s available new. I love the sound of DHTs but the SIT 3 gave me everything I love about tubes and a whole lot more. Best amp I've ever spent time with. I'll never sell it. I decided that I should explore a SS phono stage. I did my due diligence and concluded that Sutherland has the right philosophy in being minimalist and purest. I can't audition any of them so I just took a chance on Music Directs 60 day trial. I love the thing. As it broke in it became constantly better and better. It hits all the right buttons. All of the audiophile stuff and beautiful musicality. I was running a Grado Reference 2 which is a very sweet cartridge. I also have an Ortofon 2M White SE mono. The Grado through the Sutherland often had me wondering how anything could sound better. But it is a mid priced cart. I'm very curious how much better it gets. So I ordered a Soundsmith Paua which I am anxiously waiting for now. I traded in the Grado as part of the deal so am currently listening to mono only. I'm very excited to hear the Paua through the 20/20. The Sutherland 20/20 is a superlative phono stage. Oh, and coming from a guy who had 3 tubed phono stages....the 20/20 is dead quiet.
Title: Re: Sutherland 20/20 phono preamp
Post by: Nick B on May 18, 2020, 08:45:20 PM
Hi guys,
I'm new here. First post.
I have a Sutherland 20/20 with the upgraded power supply. It's my fourth phono stage and I have no intention of changing again unless a huge windfall comes my way. My first phonostage was a Decware ZP3. It was fantastic and is probably the best MM phono stage for its price. But, like many things it was the first so a boy must explore further. I next bought an Audion linestage/phonostage. I could not get rid of a buzzing sound. Sent the thing all over trying to find a problem, every tech said it was perfect. Finally returned it for refund. It didn't like my house.
I next bought a Chinook. I know it's everyone's favorite but I actually liked the Decware better. All during these changes I'm also changing other things one of which was selling my Audion 2A3 amp and buying one of the very last First Watt SIT 3s available new. I love the sound of DHTs but the SIT 3 gave me everything I love about tubes and a whole lot more. Best amp I've ever spent time with. I'll never sell it. I decided that I should explore a SS phono stage. I did my due diligence and concluded that Sutherland has the right philosophy in being minimalist and purest. I can't audition any of them so I just took a chance on Music Directs 60 day trial. I love the thing. As it broke in it became constantly better and better. It hits all the right buttons. All of the audiophile stuff and beautiful musicality. I was running a Grado Reference 2 which is a very sweet cartridge. I also have an Ortofon 2M White SE mono. The Grado through the Sutherland often had me wondering how anything could sound better. But it is a mid priced cart. I'm very curious how much better it gets. So I ordered a Soundsmith Paua which I am anxiously waiting for now. I traded in the Grado as part of the deal so am currently listening to mono only. I'm very excited to hear the Paua through the 20/20. The Sutherland 20/20 is a superlative phono stage. Oh, and coming from a guy who had 3 tubed phono stages....the 20/20 is dead quiet.

Hello mrubey and welcome to the forum  :thumb:  Interesting you should mention Soundsmith. I’ve been watching a few of Mr Lederman’s videos recently. Pls post your impressions on the Paua
Nick
Title: Re: Sutherland 20/20 phono preamp
Post by: mrubey on May 18, 2020, 09:34:57 PM
Hi Nick B.
Thanks.
The 2 seminars that Peter Lederman gave at RMAF in '17 and '18 that are on YouTube are demonstrations of a brilliant mind that knows how to teach. Not to mention providing a deep education on the critical aspects of this medium we all love so dearly.
I am constantly telling people about those videos.