Author Topic: I think my System is virtually, finally finished  (Read 33800 times)

Offline P.I.

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2021, 11:42:51 AM »
Been asked about how my system responds to the sonic differences between YouTube Premium and redbook?

Adjustments, controls on the speakers. I wish all speakers had adjustments so as to optimize reproduction from both.
Just a small change is necessary. Simply repositioning the speakers will definitely help most of the time.

The ear is incredibly sensitive to tonal changes/frequency response changes. Correlating resistance changes to -DB amplitude changes, 1 in 100,000 would equate to ~ -100db change. One in a million equates to ~ -120db change.
Since the damping factor between amp/speakers is only ~10, a perfect correlation will not be present. However, even within a db or two of perfect correlation demonstrates the extreme sensitivity of the ear.

That is why it is so difficult to obtain perfect input to output perfection with electronic components.

cheers

steve
The ear is an incredibly precise complex set of instruments.  I'm well past my listening prime at 73, but in years past I had the ears of a bat.  Even at my age I can instantly identify the difference between a m7b5 chord vs a dim7 and generally nail the scale.  I can detect tuning differentials of 2 cents easily. 

BUT: I had the pleasure of working with fellow engineers that had astonishing pitch and level discernment.

Eric Larson, the main engineer/producer/arranger of Sara K's "Gypsy Alley" recording could consistently detect level differences of ~.1dB.  I just couldn't do that.  About .2dB was as good as I could get an 80% confidence agreement upon.  Doug Geist (Santa Fe Center Studios) could and still can nail the center frequency of a dip in frequency response. It is MUCH easier to identify a peak... even I can do that within about 1/16 octave, but Doug has the confidence skill of about 90% with +/- 3Hz < 250Hz.  Uncanny.

Great mastering engineers have both perfect and relative pitch ingrained into their souls.

Critical listening is a skill, but also a gift. Some people just never get there.  Being able to listen critically is one of those things that makes for a thoroughly enjoyable and simultaneously painful experience with bad recordings.   :D
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline steve

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2021, 01:23:44 PM »
Been asked about how my system responds to the sonic differences between YouTube Premium and redbook?

Adjustments, controls on the speakers. I wish all speakers had adjustments so as to optimize reproduction from both.
Just a small change is necessary. Simply repositioning the speakers will definitely help most of the time.

The ear is incredibly sensitive to tonal changes/frequency response changes. Correlating resistance changes to -DB amplitude changes, 1 in 100,000 would equate to ~ -100db change. One in a million equates to ~ -120db change.
Since the damping factor between amp/speakers is only ~10, a perfect correlation will not be present. However, even within a db or two of perfect correlation demonstrates the extreme sensitivity of the ear.

That is why it is so difficult to obtain perfect input to output perfection with electronic components.

cheers

steve
The ear is an incredibly precise complex set of instruments.  I'm well past my listening prime at 73, but in years past I had the ears of a bat.  Even at my age I can instantly identify the difference between a m7b5 chord vs a dim7 and generally nail the scale.  I can detect tuning differentials of 2 cents easily. 

BUT: I had the pleasure of working with fellow engineers that had astonishing pitch and level discernment.

Eric Larson, the main engineer/producer/arranger of Sara K's "Gypsy Alley" recording could consistently detect level differences of ~.1dB.  I just couldn't do that.  About .2dB was as good as I could get an 80% confidence agreement upon.  Doug Geist (Santa Fe Center Studios) could and still can nail the center frequency of a dip in frequency response. It is MUCH easier to identify a peak... even I can do that within about 1/16 octave, but Doug has the confidence skill of about 90% with +/- 3Hz < 250Hz.  Uncanny.

Great mastering engineers have both perfect and relative pitch ingrained into their souls.

Critical listening is a skill, but also a gift. Some people just never get there.  Being able to listen critically is one of those things that makes for a thoroughly enjoyable and simultaneously painful experience with bad recordings.   :D

Thanks for the informatioin P. I. Much appreciated. If the bad recording sounds thin/sterile, personally, that can be tough to take, depending upon how sterile.

Dan, audiophile from Mt. Pulaski, Illinois, comes over and I make a 1 part in 1,000,000 resistance change across the full range driver and we both clearly here the tonal balance change; the harmonic structure, cleanness, dymanics/attack time, transparency, depth, width change is obvious.

Parts as well. Finding and replacing that one high resistance metal oxide resistor (in parallel with a very low metal film resistor), the sonic change that took place was quite gratifying.

The limit for me, now, is the low/moderate recording equipment design/parts quality used. Fortunately, I believe there are some venues that are starting to use higher quality recording components and interconnects, and shortening the signal path, fewer parts, better parts quality etc. Hopefully, future recordings will continue to improve.

cheers

steve
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 01:29:41 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
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Offline Nick B

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2021, 10:36:57 PM »
Been asked about how my system responds to the sonic differences between YouTube Premium and redbook?

Adjustments, controls on the speakers. I wish all speakers had adjustments so as to optimize reproduction from both.
Just a small change is necessary. Simply repositioning the speakers will definitely help most of the time.

The ear is incredibly sensitive to tonal changes/frequency response changes. Correlating resistance changes to -DB amplitude changes, 1 in 100,000 would equate to ~ -100db change. One in a million equates to ~ -120db change.
Since the damping factor between amp/speakers is only ~10, a perfect correlation will not be present. However, even within a db or two of perfect correlation demonstrates the extreme sensitivity of the ear.

That is why it is so difficult to obtain perfect input to output perfection with electronic components.

cheers

steve
The ear is an incredibly precise complex set of instruments.  I'm well past my listening prime at 73, but in years past I had the ears of a bat.  Even at my age I can instantly identify the difference between a m7b5 chord vs a dim7 and generally nail the scale.  I can detect tuning differentials of 2 cents easily. 

BUT: I had the pleasure of working with fellow engineers that had astonishing pitch and level discernment.

Eric Larson, the main engineer/producer/arranger of Sara K's "Gypsy Alley" recording could consistently detect level differences of ~.1dB.  I just couldn't do that.  About .2dB was as good as I could get an 80% confidence agreement upon.  Doug Geist (Santa Fe Center Studios) could and still can nail the center frequency of a dip in frequency response. It is MUCH easier to identify a peak... even I can do that within about 1/16 octave, but Doug has the confidence skill of about 90% with +/- 3Hz < 250Hz.  Uncanny.

Great mastering engineers have both perfect and relative pitch ingrained into their souls.

Critical listening is a skill, but also a gift. Some people just never get there.  Being able to listen critically is one of those things that makes for a thoroughly enjoyable and simultaneously painful experience with bad recordings.   :D

Very interesting comments, Dave, that you and Steve have made recently. I think my hearing is still quite good nowadays and I have a natural ability to easily detect musical rhythms. Maybe a little bit of that is due to my ballroom dancing days. I wish I were a musician or had a degree in music. Although I’ve been a member of a couple of audio clubs, I can’t say that I’ve ever been super impressed with anyone’s system or listening skills. Even being age 70, it would be fun to know to what extent I could detect differences that you guys are describing. My brother-in-law is a sound engineer in Los Angeles, but I never asked him if I could see his studio or sit in when some of the groups were recording at his place.
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Offline P.I.

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2021, 11:20:34 PM »

Parts as well. Finding and replacing that one high resistance metal oxide resistor (in parallel with a very low metal film resistor), the sonic change that took place was quite gratifying.

The limit for me, now, is the low/moderate recording equipment design/parts quality used. Fortunately, I believe there are some venues that are starting to use higher quality recording components and interconnects, and shortening the signal path, fewer parts, better parts quality etc. Hopefully, future recordings will continue to improve.

cheers

steve
Parts quality and materials are really where 'system voicing' lives and breathes.  The worst culprits overall, are all of the resistors in the signal chain, from input to speaker output - IME.

Capacitors suck (I'll get to this) but resistors suck, absolutely.

It is not only the materials used as resistive elements, but construction and coatings.

The differences between: carbon composition; carbon film; metal film; metal oxide; wire wound; non-inductive wire wound, tantalum; bulk foil; nude bulk foil; cermet oxide; pencil lead graphite...  they all sound very different.  It all comes down to using the 'right' resistor for the application.

Experience dictates which one of these options is appropriate.  I have 59 years of experience and I learn something about "that piece of gear" when I make changes.

Steve, you nailed it.  Those minuscule changes can sometimes take us from"whaaa?" to "ahhhhhhhhh!".  That is a huge part of the reward we get for what we do!  :thumb:
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 11:22:17 PM by P.I. »
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline dflee

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #64 on: October 22, 2021, 08:16:21 AM »
Dave
And the humble masses reap the rewards of your knowledge.
Thus we will be forever grateful (or at least I will).
I don't have a clue of what both you and Steve are talking about yet I've read every post.

Don
"Enjoy pleasure, not because it is fleeting, but because it exists at all." Sacrament, Clive Barker.

Offline tmazz

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2021, 04:11:26 PM »
Dave
And the humble masses reap the rewards of your knowledge.
Thus we will be forever grateful (or at least I will).

Ditto!   :thumb:
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline P.I.

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #66 on: October 22, 2021, 04:57:22 PM »
Guys, thanks, but as it has been said "I am not worthy".  I just try hard!
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline steve

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #67 on: October 24, 2021, 07:25:17 AM »
Guys, thanks, but as it has been said "I am not worthy".  I just try hard!

You have put in a labor of love, the countless hours of work, and we appreciate you.

D and T, and others, I understand where you are coming from. We all have some sort of expertise in
different fields. Hopefully, we help one another.

It takes so much work to gain knowledge. Stated in at least one book, it takes 10,000 hours minimum to become an expert in a field. I believe that is absolute minimum, but probably much higher.

Maybe the best way to explain it, is the difference between the first generation tape recording, and the third or fourth generation LP pressing. Although not an exact comparison (for those who have not heard the difference) maybe place a thin cloth over your speakers.

One poor capacitor, resistor, wire type/size, material mating, solder connection, compression connection can degrade the sound. Synergy only helps to a point, best to minimize errors when possible.

When completed, as Dave so nicely put it, from "whaaa?, to ahhhhhhhhh".

cheers

steve



 

 

« Last Edit: June 20, 2022, 07:55:02 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers

Offline P.I.

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2021, 09:40:42 AM »
Guys, thanks, but as it has been said "I am not worthy".  I just try hard!

You have put in a labor of love, the countless hours of work, and we appreciate you.

D and T, and others, I understand where you are coming from. I have the same trouble understanding some other fields. We all have some sort of expertise in different fields. Hopefully, we help one another.

It takes so much work to gain knowledge. Stated in at least one book, it takes 10,000 hours minimum to become an expert in a field. I believe that is absolute minimum, but probably much higher.

Maybe the best way to explain it, is the difference between the first generation tape recording, and the third or fourth generation LP pressing. Although not an exact comparison (for those who have not heard the difference) maybe place a very thin cloth over your speakers.

One poor capacitor, resistor, wire type/size, material mating, solder connection, compression connection can degrade the sound. Synergy only helps to a point, best to minimize errors when possible.

When completed, as Dave so nicely put it, from "whaaa?, to ahhhhhhhhh".

cheers

steve
Thanks Steve.  I love what I do, I love music and I love spreading the joy.

There is a corollary to the 10,000 hours statement:  an expert is a person that has made 10,000 errors in one field of endeavor... and learned from every one of them.
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline steve

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #69 on: October 24, 2021, 03:16:46 PM »
Guys, thanks, but as it has been said "I am not worthy".  I just try hard!

You have put in a labor of love, the countless hours of work, and we appreciate you.

D and T, and others, I understand where you are coming from. I have the same trouble understanding some other fields. We all have some sort of expertise in different fields. Hopefully, we help one another.

It takes so much work to gain knowledge. Stated in at least one book, it takes 10,000 hours minimum to become an expert in a field. I believe that is absolute minimum, but probably much higher.

Maybe the best way to explain it, is the difference between the first generation tape recording, and the third or fourth generation LP pressing. Although not an exact comparison (for those who have not heard the difference) maybe place a very thin cloth over your speakers.

One poor capacitor, resistor, wire type/size, material mating, solder connection, compression connection can degrade the sound. Synergy only helps to a point, best to minimize errors when possible.

When completed, as Dave so nicely put it, from "whaaa?, to ahhhhhhhhh".

cheers

steve
Thanks Steve.  I love what I do, I love music and I love spreading the joy.

There is a corollary to the 10,000 hours statement:  an expert is a person that has made 10,000 errors in one field of endeavor... and learned from every one of them.

Amen to that Dave. I was fortunate in that early on, I got a tip of an accurate capacitor, purchased it and thoroughly listen tested it by a couple of methods for input to output accuracy; the advice was spot on. Similar with resistors. After that, over 2 decades of research and development.

For newbies, if simply solving a few engineering equations for a design, and presenting those specs is ok for an average design, why pay an engineer/company when virtually anyone can design an average component with a couple of equations?

What sets those above are those who understand and address many other considerations, such as the field of physics, layout, audio transmission of wire itself, the correct value of those parts, to obtain a top notch sonic performance. R&D, R&D.

Here is a clue. One can obtain the same/similar specs by using a variety of parts types, and parts value. However, only one part type and value of each will give the most accurate music.

cheers

steve
« Last Edit: June 20, 2022, 07:57:59 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers

Offline dflee

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #70 on: October 24, 2021, 06:27:50 PM »
"Here is a clue. One can obtain the same/similar specs by using a variety of parts types, and parts value. However, only one part type and value of each will give the most accurate music."

My head just exploded.

Don
"Enjoy pleasure, not because it is fleeting, but because it exists at all." Sacrament, Clive Barker.

Offline tmazz

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #71 on: October 24, 2021, 09:12:08 PM »
When I was in college I spent time working as a photographer. Whenever possible I would use a handheld incident light meter instead of the camera's reflective light meter. The cameras meter measured the light bouncing off the subject and assuming the amount of refection in an average mix of colors it estimated the amount of light falling on the subject. This is OK if you are just looking for acceptable pictures as film has a range of exposures that it will work with. However; using the incident light meter I could measure the actual amount of light falling on the subject instead of estimating it and this allowed be to precisely set my exposures down to a quarter of an f/stop. Yes you can get an OK picture with an estimated reading from a reflective meter, but when you dialed in that exposure dead on the resulting pictures just had a pop to them that I could never get using just the in board camera meter.

It is the same thing with electronic design. It is fairly easy to get an OK design, but when you put in the time, effort and experience to get it just right, you are in a whole different world of performance.
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline steve

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #72 on: October 24, 2021, 11:02:03 PM »
When I was in college I spent time working as a photographer. Whenever possible I would use a handheld incident light meter instead of the camera's reflective light meter. The cameras meter measured the light bouncing off the subject and assuming the amount of refection in an average mix of colors it estimated the amount of light falling on the subject. This is OK if you are just looking for acceptable pictures as film has a range of exposures that it will work with. However; using the incident light meter I could measure the actual amount of light falling on the subject instead of estimating it and this allowed be to precisely set my exposures down to a quarter of an f/stop. Yes you can get an OK picture with an estimated reading from a reflective meter, but when you dialed in that exposure dead on the resulting pictures just had a pop to them that I could never get using just the in board camera meter.

It is the same thing with electronic design. It is fairly easy to get an OK design, but when you put in the time, effort and experience to get it just right, you are in a whole different world of performance.

Great example from a different field that is easy to digest. Thank you Tom.

steve
« Last Edit: November 11, 2021, 11:02:04 AM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers

Offline Nick B

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2021, 12:40:05 AM »
This is great stuff  :thumb:  To what extent I could determine some of the very small changes being described here, I don’t know, but it sure would be fun trying to find out…

What would also be fun is to have is a CD of recorded music/sounds that would allow comparison of different caps, resistors, types and purity of wire, etc. Don’t know if that’s doable or that I’ve seen something like that, but it would be a great companion disc to have.
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Hattor Big preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Holo Cyan2 dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline steve

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2021, 05:23:38 PM »
"Here is a clue. One can obtain the same/similar specs by using a variety of parts types, and parts value. However, only one part type and value of each will give the most accurate music."

My head just exploded.

Don

Didn't mean to explode your head Don. I think I can expand and make my comment easier to understand.

1. By varying the bias on a tube or ss device, the distortion pattern will vary. The distortoin spectrum might not
be that different, but enough if it involved 2nd vs 3rd, or better yet 2nd vs 9th order. The higher the harmonic, the lower the % to be perceived.

2. One sees so many components whose specs state 0,1db from 20 to 20khz or +/- 0,1db 20 to 20khz (0,2db total variation). Very rarely is the actual spec going to be exactly 0,1db at 20hz or 20khz. It could be a variation, say -0,035db, -0,078db or -0,092db etc at one extreme and a different -0,xdb at the other extreme.

Remember that - 0,1db means the frequency response lowered only a small amount, about ~60db down from the midrange reference. However, the ear can perceive tonal changes (frequecy response changes nearly -100db down or more. Besides tonal changes, thin or fullness, we can notice changes in dynamics, sound stage width/depth, "cleanness" etc. Small changes is why so many notice sonic differences between different models, brands of components.

As such a -60db change is huge. All it takes is a small variation of resistance value/quality, and/or capacitor type and value/quality as well. (+/- 0,1db is only a -54db change in FR. that is quite pathetic.)

 Never, never accept an article comparing capacitor brands as anywhere even close to being accurate.

3. As mentioned above, capacitors are notorious for being inaccurate. A capacitor is two foils separated by an insulator. Usually the foils/insulator are wrapped around and around, as an example let's say 100 turns.

If one measures with a scope, meter, you won't observe much of a difference between capacitors? Simply put, a scope or meter is not nearly sensitive enough, thus not sensitive enough to measure all parameters. (

The equation 1/2piFC equation (1/6.28 times frequency times capacitance in farads) doesn't really tell us a whole lot either. It is simply an equation that tells us the approximate capacitive reactance (AC resistance) at a particular frequency. It does not give us any information concerning the dielectric absorption (DA), nor the equivalent series resistance, the internal resistance and inductance of the foil turns.
     
     a. In simple terms, the dielectric absorption problem is electrons sticking to the insulation when they should let go and "travel" in the circuit. Energy is stored when it should not be. Below is a graph test demonstrating this effect in voltage (a form of signal). The old fashion picture tube short test is another way. Short the picture tube, wait 30 seconds and watch for another spark when shorted. High DA causes a lack of dynamics, blurring etc, etc.

     b. The termination of a capacitor's foils to lead wires affects the charging and discharging of a capacitor. A capacitor actually "fully" charges and discharges every cycle (perfect capacitor). 20khz per second is mighty fast charge and discharge. Any resistance in the foil and inductance affects this charging and discharging.

I hope this helps everyone (even though simplistic). Below is a general type test that shows a capacitor being discharged to zero, and over time the voltage gradually rises. As mentioned above, this is due to electrons slowly releasing from the insulator instead of instantaneously, and being released when it should not be. This slow releasing occurs for several minutes. In music, the  milliseconds, two seconds, 30 seconds, 2 minutes later changes bias,
smears the sound etc.

Its a real mess that should be addressed if possible.

I hope this is easier to understand.

cheers

steve

« Last Edit: June 20, 2022, 08:07:44 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers