Dedicated Power Outlets

[Woodsyi]

Brian is right.  For most, it's same phase every other slot on the same side or opposite each other on the panel.

[richidoo]

Very interesting! The depth of knowledge on this site never ceases to amaze. Thanks!

Can you comment on the reason that the audio system should be all on the same phase? Am I close with my guess that DC ripple in the audio signal will not fight against ripple from a different AC phase?
Thanks
Rich

[Bigfish8]

Guys:

Wow!  Thanks for all of the responses. 

I stopped by a Home Depot in PA this afternoon and based on observations of products offerred I am would say I am leaning to the following:

100 amp sub breaker panel
       -panel will hold 6 breakers

This would allow me to run 2-20 amp (unsure if I need) and 4-15 amp dedicated lines.

Not certain yet but believe I will need a #3 wire to run from main breaker panel to sub panel.

Will require 100 amp, 2 pole breaker for main panel.

I will likely use 12-2 Romex for wiring in the crawl space

I will use industrial quality, all brass parts outlets initially and upgrade down the road as the Nervosa Bug continues to eat away at my income!

Since I am reasonably handy and have the required tools I will do all the work except for connections to the main breaker panel.

Thanks again for all of the responses and let me know if I am missing something I have listed above.

Ken

[bpape]

I'd personally for the money go for at least a 20 space panel.  That will give you the 8 spaces you need, all on 1 110v side with space left over.

The trick is IF you have the extra length in existing wiring, to take the rest of your house and redo so all floursecents, motors, dimmers, etc. are on the OTHER 110v leg to minimize noise.

As has been said previously, if you can do balanced, do it. If not, this is the next best thing.  THHN star grounding with a GOOD DEEP ground rod is also a must IMO.  Bypass any grounding to any copper pipes and run direct to the ground rod.

You'll be very surprised at the lowered noise floor and 'blackness of background' this will give you.

Bryan

[Bigfish8]

Guys:

I finally got around to installing 2 dedicated 20 amp outlets today.  After doing a lot of research on the internet I decided to run 10 ga. Romex to 20 Amp outlets.  I had 48' runs from the box and while the 12 guage would probably be sufficient I wanted to ensure I was able to pass the current!   Also, I could find no reference to being out of code for connecting 10ga. Romex to a 20 AMP outlet. 

Sound wise, there is no doubt there is a change for the better.  For roughly $150.00 I recommend this upgrade to any serious about Audio. 

Ken

[hometheaterdoc]

That's awesome, Ken!!!

It's definitely a must do for a lot of folks.  I know electricity scares a lot of folks, as it *should* given it's not something to take lightly if you don't know what you are doing.  But it's also not rocket science.  So you can make some changes for not a lot of money invested.  I can't believe how cheap copper has gotten recently.  When I re-did the electrical wiring in my last place, it was nearly 3X the price it is now.  For all the extra romex I pulled here in the new house besides the JPS, it sure made the cost more palatable. 

I'm glad it had a positive effect for you.  I wish others would make the same leap.  It's not always easy or convenient depending on where their listening room is in the house compared to the panel. 

Now just imagine how good it could have been with JPS Romex hehehehe  Sorry... couldn't resist.  Did I ever show you the demo at the old place where I ran 3 outlets side by side? I ran the standard 12 gauge shared outlet that was already there, an 8 gauge Home Depot romex dedicated outlet on one side of a dedicated 100A subpanel, and a JPS romex dedicated outlet on the other side of a dedicated subpanel?  I got the greatest kick out of demoing the difference in the three by playing a single song while gear was plugged into each outlet.  I even got the guy who was helping me fish wires to listen and his jaw hit the floor at the differences between all three.

[Carlman]

Ken,
Sounds like you're making some incredible progress!  I did the same thing at my last house and it was the best ROI I'd gotten on any upgrade in a long time... if not of all time.  $150 for a real improvement is so worth it.  And, you can always plug your gear into the house receptacles and re-prove why it was a good idea.   I did.. like a scaled-down version of Shane's demo.  

At the new house, I ran all the audio circuits on 1 phase with cryo'd 20A breakers.  I used cryo'd 12ga Romex also.  John at Black Sand tested some in-wall power cabling and said the cryo'd Romex tested surprisingly well so, that was the most economical solution... and might be a way to go for you if you want to upgrade later.

I may have some leftover stuff from the project..  I'm not giving it away but locals are welcome to try it. I've got a little cryo'd Romex (10' or so), and cryo'd breakers (15A Siemens).  I also have 1 ATL uber-nice outlet I'd be willing to let you try as well.  Here's the link to the one I have.

Looking forward to hearing that system sometime!

-C

[pmkap]

Hubbel industrial grade will get you 99% for 20% of the money.  THHN star grounding is well worth your effort

Bryan

 
.......
I agree 100%, industrial grade receptacles are fine. I doubt you can hear a difference between the Oxide(sic) Oyaide? and Industrial grade. Just make sure the connectors are Brass not Nickel.
....
rollo

Rollo,

You woundn't say that if you atually made the effort to compare and listen. The HBL5362 20 amp and HBL5262 15 amp receptacles sound very different from the various Oyaide recptables. As to which is best, that very much depends on the connectors used that plug into them, as well as your personal subjective preferences. Another worthy receptacle is the Synergistic Teslaplex. I don't understand the hoodoo that Ted Denny applies, but I've compared the base Levition upon which the Teslaplex is based directly to the Teslaplex, and the differences are not subtle. The Teslaplexs are a substantial improvement and very, very good.


In my system, my strong preference is for the JenaLabs custom, cyroed HBL5362 -
http://www.jenalabs.com/ac-products/ac-parts09.html
IMS, they simply do everything mo 'betta.
These truly are custom, in that the internal contacts are from the Hubbell 250vac receptacles, whith a slightly different composition than the standard HBL52/362 contacts. I can only state that although I can source the standards Hubbelll HBL5x62 outlets for 1/10th the price of the Jenas, and have her cryo them for a few bucks each,  I find her version a cost effective improvement.

Then again, I can understand why others might subjectively prefer Oyaides depending on their personal preferences and anciliary components. As allways, YMMV.

Regards,
Paul

[richidoo]

Nice job Ken! Sounds like a nice cheap tweak, but also sounds like real work.... 

Since my previous post I have thought about the phase thing. I have learned that residential power is single phase, but given on 2 legs. When added together, in phase, they make 230VAC. Each individual leg makes nominal 115VAC. If they were truly out of phase as with 3 phase power, they would not sum as we expect. In fact I think that might cause some ugliness and magic smoke when one phase is 60 degrees positive and the other is 60 neg. Too bad I don't remember trig to figure out the voltages at that point, but it's big.  Anyway, the two legs are in phase, but they are different legs with different noise on them. Adding them together  is like a chorus instead of a single singer. Seems like there is a balanced power scheme hidden in there somewhere...   Still makes sense to use a single leg for the whole stereo, but they are always on the same phase, or supposed to be.

Thanks for the link to the Jena outlet Paul.

[mdconnelly]

Ken,  did you do the work yourself?   Hard to imagine you could get that done for $150 paying an electrician and buying the breaker, wire and outlet.   Very cool!

[philotechnic]

Ken, I'll do a deal with you - you can help me re-wire and I'll drive you to Heinz field to pay homage 

On a serious note I had reason to check my AC voltage recently and came up with 126V, based on what happened with Bob In St Louis I called my utility company and asked them what the mandatory guidelines are on voltage spread.  Never did get an answer but my local utility company were more than happy to install a data logger, they did this Thursday, in order to test what fluctuations I have over a 7 day period.  Talking to the electrician he told me they encouraged these tests at consumers as it gave them feedback on how well the distribution equipment was working.  While he was here he did a few quality of service tests that told him I had a very clean and robust supply, whatever this means.  So far the data logger shows an average of 122.5V with a 124V peak.  When he removes the logger I'll try and copy the plot and ask more questions on what he means by quality?  I mention this as starting with a good supply is useful and, if all utility companies are open to this, a free survey on your supply is worth doing.

Any prediction on the game with the Browns today?
Go Steelers!

Phil   

[rollo]

Hubbel industrial grade will get you 99% for 20% of the money.  THHN star grounding is well worth your effort

Bryan

 
.......
I agree 100%, industrial grade receptacles are fine. I doubt you can hear a difference between the Oxide(sic) Oyaide? and Industrial grade. Just make sure the connectors are Brass not Nickel.
....
rollo

Rollo,

You woundn't say that if you actually made the effort to compare and listen. The HBL5362 20 amp and HBL5262 15 amp receptacles sound very different from the various Oyaide recapitalise. As to which is best, that very much depends on the connectors used that plug into them, as well as your personal subjective preferences. Another worthy receptacle is the Synergistic Teslaplex. I don't understand the hoodoo that Ted Denny applies, but I've compared the base Levition upon which the Teslaplex is based directly to the Teslaplex, and the differences are not subtle. The Teslaplexs are a substantial improvement and very, very good.


In my system, my strong preference is for the JenaLabs custom, cyroed HBL5362 -
http://www.jenalabs.com/overprotects/ac-parts09.html
IMS, they simply do everything mo 'betta.
These truly are custom, in that the internal contacts are from the Hubbell 250vac receptacles, with a slightly different composition than the standard HBL52/362 contacts. I can only state that although I can source the standards Hubbelll HBL5x62 outlets for 1/10th the price of the Jenas, and have her cryo them for a few bucks each,  I find her version a cost effective improvement.

Then again, I can understand why others might subjectively prefer Oyaides depending on their personal preferences and ancillary components. As allways, YMMV.

Regards,
Paul

Paul, thanks for your insight. However, please do not assume anything I have compared plugs and connectors when I was making cords years ago for sale. Cryo was not available at thetime so untreated was the only way to go.   At that time we had no way of measuring a thing or did we know what to measure for. We just just used our subjective ears.   the IEC connector we liked was the O'heil and plug Mararnco
  Now I have not compared the Oyaides connectors to the old ones.   I'm having a meeting Friday evening, would it be possible to try out a pair of copper  cords against my home made babies ? hearing a lot of good things about your cords. If Bob likes em they must be good. Or betteryet why not try and make the meeting. Let me know.


charles       

[Bigfish8]

Ken,  did you do the work yourself?   Hard to imagine you could get that done for $150 paying an electrician and buying the breaker, wire and outlet.   Very cool!

Yep, I did it myself after putting it off for over a year and doing a lot of research on the internet before making the effort.  Yes, it was a lot of work and not a lot of fun but thank goodness it is done. 

Shane,

I would have loved to used JPS Romex but I just don't have the funds to afford that golden stuff!   Someday, when my ship comes in I may decide to switch to it as I have no doubt it would be better.

I used one hospital grade outlet and one JPS outlet I purchased from Shane.  I will replace the hospital grade outlet with a JPS Outlet as soon as Shane receives it. 


Prior to this upgrade I was powering all of my gear from two home outlets on a single 15 amp breaker.  Yes, it was well past time for this addition!

Ken

[pmkap]

Rollo (Charles),

I made the statement that you'd obviously not compared the Oyaides to the HBL5x62 assuming the following-

1. Your ears maitain some minimal level of acuity.
2. Your system has some minimal level of quality and resolution.

Assuming the above, I was confident in saying you'd obviously not actually made the comparison. I made no other assertions, and was, I believe, correct. Nor did my comments address whatever level of expertise and experience you have regarding receptacles and/or power cords, simply that your statement

I doubt you can hear a difference between the Oxide(sic) Oyaide? and Industrial grade. Just make sure the connectors are Brass not Nickel.

while plausible (from a Frank van Alstine world view), was incorrect. Nothing more, nothing less.

I too have been known to make the occasional mis-statement.

Regards,
Paul

[Bigfish8]

Nice job Ken! Sounds like a nice cheap tweak, but also sounds like real work.... 

Since my previous post I have thought about the phase thing. I have learned that residential power is single phase, but given on 2 legs. When added together, in phase, they make 230VAC. Each individual leg makes nominal 115VAC. If they were truly out of phase as with 3 phase power, they would not sum as we expect. In fact I think that might cause some ugliness and magic smoke when one phase is 60 degrees positive and the other is 60 neg. Too bad I don't remember trig to figure out the voltages at that point, but it's big.  Anyway, the two legs are in phase, but they are different legs with different noise on them. Adding them together  is like a chorus instead of a single singer. Seems like there is a balanced power scheme hidden in there somewhere...   Still makes sense to use a single leg for the whole stereo, but they are always on the same phase, or supposed to be.

Thanks for the link to the Jena outlet Paul.

Hi Rich:

Thanks, I installed both breakers on the same side of the breaker box so both breakers are mounted on the same power leg.

Ken