Author Topic: Dedicated Power Outlets  (Read 41214 times)

Bigfish8

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Dedicated Power Outlets
« on: September 04, 2007, 03:08:43 PM »
Guys:

I am not certain if this post is in the proper area so I will request the moderators to move it if there is a more appropriate place. 

I have communicated with Shane, the Home Theater Doc, and he has given me some pointers on how I can use a sub breaker panel for dedicated power lines for my gear.  As I am in the planning stage for this project, I would appreciate some advice:

1.  Should I run one or two (8 or 10 guage Romex) wires for the mono bloc amps and should this or these lines be on a 15 or 20 amp breaker?


2  I think I would want to run a single line to power the Squeezebox and Preamp (I could use this for a power conditioner in the future).

3.  Would you run an additional line for the Plasma TV, DVD Player, cable box and Receiver or drive this stuff from outlets currently available?

4.  What do you recommend for power outlets that are high quality but not insanely priced?

Thanks,

Ken

Offline Carlman

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Re: Dedicated Power Outlets
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2007, 05:54:59 PM »
Ken,
I'm about to go through some of the same questions for our new house/dedicated room.  So far I've decided anything over 12ga Romex is overkill.  However, I plan on running a lot of dedicated outlets back to the subpanel.  I'm also considering a separate run from the street to the subpanel... Lastly, I'm thinking of implementing a backup generator for the main part of the house... not sure on that one yet.  The ice storm 5 years ago scared me... 6 days of no power or gas got old...

Anyway, one thing to be sure of is that the work you do meets all code requirements so you don't get bit when you go to sell your house... or cause any real problems.

The best 'budget' outlets are the Porter Ports sold on Audiogon in my (not-too-humble) opinion.  I'll probably buy Oyaides for the most important outlets. (preamp, source and amps)  I'm putting in enough dedicated outlets to expand to the unknown and power other people's gear that's brought over for comparison... what the heck? ;)

I've heard negative opinions and reasoning for using larger than 12ga power cable but I can't remember where or why... I just know I'm not spending the cash without good reason.... So, I'll be interested to hear reasoning in this thread about what size (or type) power cable to run.  I know some like THHN wire and others like alumalloy...

-C

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Black Sand Cable

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Re: Dedicated Power Outlets
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2007, 06:26:54 PM »


1.  Should I run one or two (8 or 10 guage Romex) wires for the mono bloc amps and should this or these lines be on a 15 or 20 amp breaker?


2  I think I would want to run a single line to power the Squeezebox and Preamp (I could use this for a power conditioner in the future).

3.  Would you run an additional line for the Plasma TV, DVD Player, cable box and Receiver or drive this stuff from outlets currently available?

4.  What do you recommend for power outlets that are high quality but not insanely priced?

Thanks,

Ken

1 - Run as many as you think you will need or want. I have one dedicated 15amp line that is feeding three Oyaide R1 outlets and I can power anything with it. For a time I was running 5 various Parasound amps plus a pre, display, transport, 2 satellite receivers and a few other things with zero problems. I have switched it around a little now and it still works fine. Everything in my system is running off an Equi=Tech 1.5RQ that is plugged into my dedicated outlet and once again, zero problems.

As for wire, 12AWG Romex is more then enough. You can run 10AWG but the results when directly compared to the 12AWG will in all honesty, be none. 8AWG IMO is a waste of money and not needed.

2 - See above. Run as many as you need!

3 - Everything should be on a dedicated line so my answer would be a big yes.

4 - Hubbell 8300HI or if you want to move up the food chain a little, I don't think there is anything out there at the moment that beats what Oyaide is doing. I carry most of them from Oyaide, Furutech, Wattgate, Hubbell and others and I use the Oyaide's on everything.


Offline djbnh

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Re: Dedicated Power Outlets
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2007, 06:50:05 PM »
I run dedicated 20A lines, and keep the digital on a separate dedicated line. Have fun, it was a worthwhile upgrade for my system.
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Offline bpape

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Re: Dedicated Power Outlets
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2007, 08:23:17 PM »
Hubbel industrial grade will get you 99% for 20% of the money.  THHN star grounding is well worth your effort

Bryan
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Offline spudco

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Re: Dedicated Power Outlets
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2007, 05:05:16 AM »
I agree with the Hubbel industrial recommendation.  Save a bunch of money.

Star grounding is also good, but make sure the entire house is grounded to the same.

I installed a seperate breaker box for my audio stuff.  Makes it easer to keep track of stuff and to shut stuff off in an emergency.  Also, if you set up the electrical service for a backup generator, you probably don't want to include your audio stuff.  You may wish to install balanced power at the breaker box. 

Also, run lots of lines.  I have 6 in for my main system and 4 for the basement system.  I wish I had run more.  Make at least 2 20 amp breaker runs to each system.  12 g wire will be fine, but make sure the electricians know you want to seperate the runs as much as possible.

I would also run some cat5 while I was at it...  Run some coax for current sat/cable video... Remember that the future will be digital networking.

I wish I had added an additional wiring trace to each wall.  You may wish to add some wire in the future.

I wish I had a remote controlled whole breaker box cutoff switch here in the land of thunder storms.

Offline rollo

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Re: Dedicated Power Outlets
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2007, 06:26:19 AM »
Hubbel industrial grade will get you 99% for 20% of the money.  THHN star grounding is well worth your effort

Bryan
 

I agree 100%, industrial grade receptacles are fine. I doubt you can hear a difference between the Oxide and Industrial grade. Just make sure the connectors are Brass not Nickel.
    Depending on the length of your dedicated lines the wire guage should be no less than 12Ga. The Amps should be 20 amp 10Ga. Romex. A dedicated line for your CD source, Amp, Pre, and TV would be desired.
     You might consider making the power cords from Romex as well. Just shield the conductor and run a drain wire from shield to ground [ float shield at both ends ].
     Once all is done, one component at a time measure the ground potentil of each. Use a Multimeter with the positive lead to the outside of the RCA and the Neg. to house ground [ Or dedicated ground ]. Remember this should be done with the components off and cables disconnected. The reading you shold get is 0, if not reverse the plug with a cheater plug and see what you get. If you cannot achieve a 0 reading use the lowest reading position. Once you establish the correct position for the plugs [ phase ] you will hear more information and have a lower noise floor with the correct ground potential.
    Even better IMO would be to bring a new Elec service into the panel. This way you could bybass any noise coming from the house ground. More expensive but over the years of happy listening IMO it is well worth the extra money at this time. Good luck!

rollo
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Offline bpape

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Re: Dedicated Power Outlets
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2007, 06:36:02 AM »
OK.  I've got to be picky here.  Sorry.

A 20A circuit should have 12ga wire.  Not 14, not 10. A 30A uses 10ga and requires a higher outlet rating.

Many inspectors will fail you for 10ga on a 20A device (outlet).  According to code in most places, overrating wire is just as bad as underrating.

Bryan
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Offline rollo

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Re: Dedicated Power Outlets
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2007, 06:50:32 AM »
Bpape,
           Did not know that . Good advice. Thanks. I guess I'm not code compliant. Oops! Puzzling as it sounds I guess there is good reason for 12Ga. of 15 amp lines. Just sounds odd.

rollo
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Offline hometheaterdoc

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Re: Dedicated Power Outlets
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2007, 08:37:51 AM »
OK.  I've got to be picky here.  Sorry.

A 20A circuit should have 12ga wire.  Not 14, not 10. A 30A uses 10ga and requires a higher outlet rating.

Many inspectors will fail you for 10ga on a 20A device (outlet).  According to code in most places, overrating wire is just as bad as underrating.

Bryan

What about if you put the entire second floor (including 2 bathrooms and their GFCIs), laundry room, and half a dozen outlets on the first floor on one 15A breaker? :)

Is that code for your state or national code you are referencing for wire gauge?  I did some research on this here in NC before I went ahead with my sub-panel installation plan.  I wanted at least one thing in this house to meet code since nothing else does.  I didn't find that in any of the code I looked through.  I also spoke with a couple electrician friends and a residential building inspector before I went ahead.  They had no issue with my plan other than they thought I was nuts to put in MSRP $24 a foot romex.  I'm still enjoying the image of their jaws hitting the floor when I demonstrated the difference it makes :)
Shane Sangster
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Black Sand Cable

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Re: Dedicated Power Outlets
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2007, 08:51:05 AM »
You may wish to install balanced power at the breaker box. 

Best advice I have heard. If you can afford it, a balanced system  is the way to go. No need on spending a ton of money on wire, outlets etc as it won't matter once this is done. You can still tweak as you go but if your not planning on moving anytime soon, this would be a very nice investment.

http://www.equitech.com/products/industrial/wall.html

Offline bpape

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Re: Dedicated Power Outlets
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2007, 08:57:48 AM »
OK.  I've got to be picky here.  Sorry.

A 20A circuit should have 12ga wire.  Not 14, not 10. A 30A uses 10ga and requires a higher outlet rating.

Many inspectors will fail you for 10ga on a 20A device (outlet).  According to code in most places, overrating wire is just as bad as underrating.

Bryan

What about if you put the entire second floor (including 2 bathrooms and their GFCIs), laundry room, and half a dozen outlets on the first floor on one 15A breaker? :)

Is that code for your state or national code you are referencing for wire gauge?  I did some research on this here in NC before I went ahead with my sub-panel installation plan.  I wanted at least one thing in this house to meet code since nothing else does.  I didn't find that in any of the code I looked through.  I also spoke with a couple electrician friends and a residential building inspector before I went ahead.  They had no issue with my plan other than they thought I was nuts to put in MSRP $24 a foot romex.  I'm still enjoying the image of their jaws hitting the floor when I demonstrated the difference it makes :)


Don't laugh, I've seen more than one done that way - used to have one where all the bathrooms were all on the same GFCI circuit with the trip in the garage!

I don't know about national code but everywhere I've lived (IL, IA, AL, NJ, MO) it has always been that way - 15A=14ga, 20A=12ga, 30A=10ga

Bryan
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Offline Woodsyi

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Re: Dedicated Power Outlets
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2007, 09:01:54 AM »
If you can't afford the balanced power, at least get the circuits on the same phase.  You can also put in surge protection on the dedicated lines by using Zero Surge (OEM for Brickwall) wall units.   
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Dedicated Power Outlets
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2007, 09:46:57 AM »
By the "same phase," you mean that the dedicated audio circuit breakers should be installed on the same side of the breaker panel, using the same leg of 220V feed, right?  That will make all the DC ripple coming out of audio power supplies more harmonious when passing signal from one component to another. Great idea. Shane suggested that to me recently, but until now I did not understand.

What if you install a dedicated power panel near the system. That would use a 220 line to the new panel, and then you would have 2 legs of different phase for the breakers. How do you decide how to apportion those?

Preaching to the choir here, I know, but just to encourage Ken to go for it: I moved my system upstairs a few months ago, and plugged into a couple of shared 15A circuits. The added noise and reduced tone quality was a real eye opener for me, and I have excellent underground power from a huge ground level transformer. What happens in the house wiring is critical for high end audio. On dedicated 20A line, overall sound is much superior. Hubbell outlet and Black Sands cables help too. ;)

Picking up on the grounding thing, ya gotta have only one earth rod, but a separate audio panel would be grounded directly to the one house service rod anyway, giving a nice quiet ground, in theory. Two separate rods seems tempting for even quieter ground, but it is illegal, because a lightning strike with two unbonded earth rods makes a big house fire. The slightest voltage potential (different resistance to earth) between the two rods causes hundreds of amps to flow through equipment and house wire rated for 15 or 20, or even 100amps between panels, it will all explode with a lightningstrike leaving molten metal sprayed inside the wooden walls. No insurance payoff either. Get a pro, Bolton is great around here, I've used them many times.
Rich

Offline bpape

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Re: Dedicated Power Outlets
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2007, 10:22:28 AM »
You'd want them on the same 110V leg of the 220v.  However, not all breaker panels have one leg on one side - most of them alternate so all odds on the left and all evens on the right are on one 110V leg and the opposite on the other.  You can look at the backplane of the box and see how your particular one works.

Bryan
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