Author Topic: PIAUDIO DIGIBUSS  (Read 62518 times)

Offline tmazz

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 12088
  • Just basking in the glow of my tubes.....
Re: PIAUDIO DIGIBUSS
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2016, 07:54:56 PM »
It would be nice to try one of these ..... nudge nudge wink wink say no more.

Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline P.I.

  • Industry Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 1922
  • Silence is that blackness beneath the music
    • P.I. audio group, LLC
Re: PIAUDIO DIGIBUSS
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2016, 08:15:00 PM »
It would be nice to try one of these ..... nudge nudge wink wink say no more.
Subtle ootzes are not lost on me.  Rollo and I are in cahoots to have some traveling demos of the Uber and DigiBUSS available for audition. There will need to be credit card surety and prepayment for shipment to the auditioner, but beyond that knock yourself out.  I'm going to try to get these to him before we leave for the Bonamassa Blues Alive at Sea cruise Feb 14 - 20.  No promises... I'm still having some supply issues, but have pieces/parts inbound.

Will that work?
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline rollo

  • Industry Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 6982
  • Rollo Audio - Home demo the only way to know
Re: PIAUDIO DIGIBUSS
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2016, 07:45:51 AM »
    Da proof is in da pudding. The shock and Awe tour oh my !!!


charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm Industries - Aqua Acoustic, Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm - Kuzma - QLN - Audio Hungary Qualiton - Fritz speakers -Gigawatt -Vinnie Rossi,TWL, Swiss Cables, Merason DAC.

Offline Werd

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
  • Return of the Hot Librarians 2016
Re: PIAUDIO DIGIBUSS
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2016, 03:05:36 PM »
I am game  :thumb:

Dave you should you use your skills and turn the digbuss into a transformer based unit. Put a transformer ahead of that fancy wiring you got. Build a 10amp using 2- 120 volt 5 amp phases out to 120 volt single phase. Even front ends sound like their on nitro on 240 volt.  :thumb:
Nola Viper Reference iii, Nola Blue Thunder Subs, Chapter Couplet 400s, Chapter Pr้cis 250 integrated set to pre, Bryston BDA2/BDP1.
Torus RM-20 240v

Gutwire, TWL, Wywires,

Offline tmazz

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 12088
  • Just basking in the glow of my tubes.....
Re: PIAUDIO DIGIBUSS
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2016, 03:49:21 PM »
I am game  :thumb:

Dave you should you use your skills and turn the digbuss into a transformer based unit. Put a transformer ahead of that fancy wiring you got. Build a 10amp using 2- 120 volt 5 amp phases out to 120 volt single phase. Even front ends sound like their on nitro on 240 volt.  :thumb:

While I agree that using balanced power can be the best way to go, I am not sure how practical it would be to build that intio a unit like a digibuss. For this to work you could not just feed the unit with any two 120v feeds, but rather you would need to have two separate feeds, one from the A buss and one from the B buss of your incoming service. Secondly, the two feeds would need to be very close to one another because if they were different lengths you could end up wit ground loop problems between the two feeds. The chances of that happening in a normal residential situation is pretty slim. What you would really need is a 240 outlet run to the room where the system is. And even then I am not sure it would be the best of ideas since 240 to 120 transformers then to vibrate mechanically produce an audible hum that most audiophiles would find objectionable in their listening room. For this reason balanced power transformers are almost always located right by the service panel and the balanced 120v is then run to the listening room via a dedicated circuit.

Now perhaps Dave could come up with a new balanced power unit that would combine his filtering magic with a 240/120 transformer in a form factor that would wall mount by your panel, but I am just not sure it would be practical add that functionality to the Digibuss as it sits now.
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline P.I.

  • Industry Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 1922
  • Silence is that blackness beneath the music
    • P.I. audio group, LLC
Re: PIAUDIO DIGIBUSS
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2016, 04:40:57 PM »
Gentlemen, 

Balanced power: been there done that will not go back for a home system.  Transformers can be a bigger PITA than most people are will to deal with.  They can be a great solution 'in some instances', but are not a cure all.  The biggest issue is current limiting.

When Philips Semiconductor closed here in 2002 there were a lot of Topaz Ultra Isolation transformers that went on the surplus market.  I bought a couple of the ultra low capacitance 2.5KVA T5's at that time for $75.00 each.  :shock: They are not balanced but offer noise suppression > 120dB.  My system at the time was comprised of Cary CAD572SE Mk.ii, an over the top modified sLP50-B preamp and a 306 CD player.  Even with the fairly constant current draw of the system the onlt time it did not sound compressed was with the transformer feeding an UberBUSS so the PFC network would provide the instantaneous current need during transients.  One one think that a 20A supply to class A amps would do the job on amps that drew a total of <450W.  Didn't.  It weighs 60 pounds and has a weighted noise component of 30dBA at 450Btu/hour.  Works great in the crawlspace under the house protecting the flatscreen and related gear.  Best surge protection going.

If you want black, velvety dynamics the UberBUSS was created to do that job. This MiniBUSS and DigiBUSS are built for specialized applications at low cost.  The Uber is all about heavy lifting in the SQ arena.  Charles will have a broken in Uber as well as DigiBUSS for traveling audition next week.  After all, I build all things in the power treatment arena, even a surge protector (BUSS-Stop)... even though I am a proponent of whole house panel mount surge protectors.  There's something for everyone.  If not I'll design/build.  All you have to have is time and money.
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline Werd

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
  • Return of the Hot Librarians 2016
Re: PIAUDIO DIGIBUSS
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2016, 05:58:06 PM »
I am game  :thumb:

Dave you should you use your skills and turn the digbuss into a transformer based unit. Put a transformer ahead of that fancy wiring you got. Build a 10amp using 2- 120 volt 5 amp phases out to 120 volt single phase. Even front ends sound like their on nitro on 240 volt.  :thumb:



While I agree that using balanced power can be the best way to go, I am not sure how practical it would be to build that intio a unit like a digibuss. For this to work you could not just feed the unit with any two 120v feeds, but rather you would need to have two separate feeds, one from the A buss and one from the B buss of your incoming service. Secondly, the two feeds would need to be very close to one another because if they were different lengths you could end up wit ground loop problems between the two feeds. The chances of that happening in a normal residential situation is pretty slim. What you would really need is a 240 outlet run to the room where the system is. And even then I am not sure it would be the best of ideas since 240 to 120 transformers then to vibrate mechanically produce an audible hum that most audiophiles would find objectionable in their listening room. For this reason balanced power transformers are almost always located right by the service panel and the balanced 120v is then run to the listening room via a dedicated circuit.

Now perhaps Dave could come up with a new balanced power unit that would combine his filtering magic with a 240/120 transformer in a form factor that would wall mount by your panel, but I am just not sure it would be practical add that functionality to the Digibuss as it sits now.

My Torus Rm20 is dead quiet.  It's a dual phase 120v 10amp service. It gives me a 120V 20 amp at the outlets. It's better for the front end than amps.... Lol
Nola Viper Reference iii, Nola Blue Thunder Subs, Chapter Couplet 400s, Chapter Pr้cis 250 integrated set to pre, Bryston BDA2/BDP1.
Torus RM-20 240v

Gutwire, TWL, Wywires,

Offline Werd

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
  • Return of the Hot Librarians 2016
Re: PIAUDIO DIGIBUSS
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2016, 06:37:28 PM »
Gentlemen, 

Balanced power: been there done that will not go back for a home system.  Transformers can be a bigger PITA than most people are will to deal with.  They can be a great solution 'in some instances', but are not a cure all.  The biggest issue is current limiting.

When Philips Semiconductor closed here in 2002 there were a lot of Topaz Ultra Isolation transformers that went on the surplus market.  I bought a couple of the ultra low capacitance 2.5KVA T5's at that time for $75.00 each.  :shock: They are not balanced but offer noise suppression > 120dB.  My system at the time was comprised of Cary CAD572SE Mk.ii, an over the top modified sLP50-B preamp and a 306 CD player.  Even with the fairly constant current draw of the system the onlt time it did not sound compressed was with the transformer feeding an UberBUSS so the PFC network would provide the instantaneous current need during transients.  One one think that a 20A supply to class A amps would do the job on amps that drew a total of <450W.  Didn't.  It weighs 60 pounds and has a weighted noise component of 30dBA at 450Btu/hour.  Works great in the crawlspace under the house protecting the flatscreen and related gear.  Best surge protection going.

If you want black, velvety dynamics the UberBUSS was created to do that job. This MiniBUSS and DigiBUSS are built for specialized applications at low cost.  The Uber is all about heavy lifting in the SQ arena.  Charles will have a broken in Uber as well as DigiBUSS for traveling audition next week.  After all, I build all things in the power treatment arena, even a surge protector (BUSS-Stop)... even though I am a proponent of whole house panel mount surge protectors.  There's something for everyone.  If not I'll design/build.  All you have to have is time and money.

I can assure you this Torus does not hold back on transient current. I agree though, one might need at least a 20 amp service at the outlets. It's got to be overkill even for the front end. 15 amp service fed from a regular house mains maybe not for amps in current restrictions. I have heard Torus RM15s but not in my house so I am not sure.  But that's for amps, for front end it can be less but the dual phase just keeps it lit. It's the way to go where I am.

Dual phase for current is like what voltage regulation is for 120V.  The thing is in constant supply and never sees a saturated core.. It's a thing of sonic beauty. I think the reason why it's so quiet to is that there is a 120V 20 amp feed in with a 120V 20 amp feed out. I am not sure if the 30 or 60 amp services are noisy. Might be.
Nola Viper Reference iii, Nola Blue Thunder Subs, Chapter Couplet 400s, Chapter Pr้cis 250 integrated set to pre, Bryston BDA2/BDP1.
Torus RM-20 240v

Gutwire, TWL, Wywires,

Offline tmazz

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 12088
  • Just basking in the glow of my tubes.....
Re: PIAUDIO DIGIBUSS
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2016, 10:19:15 PM »
One thing I have learned through experience with power products and audio is that there are never seem to be any absolutes. I have had things that worked wonders in my house that I brought to a friends  and they sounded like crap and things that did basically nothing for me that made wondrous changes somewhere else. I am sure it all has to do with what exactly of no perfect about your power in your house vs somebody else's power situation. So if that transformer is working well for you, go with it and enjoy.
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline Werd

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
  • Return of the Hot Librarians 2016
Re: PIAUDIO DIGIBUSS
« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2016, 06:06:28 AM »
One thing I have learned through experience with power products and audio is that there are never seem to be any absolutes. I have had things that worked wonders in my house that I brought to a friends  and they sounded like crap and things that did basically nothing for me that made wondrous changes somewhere else. I am sure it all has to do with what exactly of no perfect about your power in your house vs somebody else's power situation. So if t4hat transformer is working well for you, go with it and enjoy.
Dude! I gurantee (and I mean 150% gaurantee) if you plugged your front end including preamp Into a 240v dual phase conditioner you would have a completely different perspective. Only because dual phase is meant for audio like a momma's booby is for her baby. The trick is to get the thing down to 120V service quietly using a transformer that doesn't hold back current.

I do not have my amps into the Torus. Well my Bryston I didn't and my Chapter doesn't work. My Chapter turns on but no music plays. Its a mystery. But my Bryston14Bsst2 sounded like it was too close to another huge transformer. My old 4Bsst/2 sounded lit. Totally charged and ready to go. My 140 watt Blue Circle spanked my 4B when I had into the Torus240 compared to the 4B in the wall. Both in the wall the Blue Circle could not keep up to the 4B.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 06:26:56 AM by Werd »
Nola Viper Reference iii, Nola Blue Thunder Subs, Chapter Couplet 400s, Chapter Pr้cis 250 integrated set to pre, Bryston BDA2/BDP1.
Torus RM-20 240v

Gutwire, TWL, Wywires,

Offline Werd

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
  • Return of the Hot Librarians 2016
Re: PIAUDIO DIGIBUSS
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2016, 12:51:28 PM »
My Chapter amp works but not through that conditioner. It only works plugged into the wall. That is what I meant to say. The thing turns on and functions to commands but no music...
Nola Viper Reference iii, Nola Blue Thunder Subs, Chapter Couplet 400s, Chapter Pr้cis 250 integrated set to pre, Bryston BDA2/BDP1.
Torus RM-20 240v

Gutwire, TWL, Wywires,

Offline P.I.

  • Industry Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 1922
  • Silence is that blackness beneath the music
    • P.I. audio group, LLC
Re: PIAUDIO DIGIBUSS
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2016, 04:34:31 PM »
One thing that I am absolutely sure of is there are no absolutes in audio.  Overtime I try to find an application that is universal I come up with 1 or 9 reasons that it isn't.

The bottom line (HA!) is that what works, works.  Sometimes there is no rhyme or reason of it to do so.  This just tells us that all of those things we learned in school may not necessarily be applicable to what we are doing.  We tend to view everything simplistically. 

Let's just take one example:  Power cables

I do not pretend to understand everything that I think I know about electricity.  I know what they taught me in school.  Ohm's law ruled everything when I was a youngster. PIE, baby  :thumb:  I=V/R .  Unfortunately, that is just the beginning of the topic.  It is a topic to which I have found no end.

I remember some years ago when I was debating the topic of power cables on a well respected DIY forum. I remember being belittled for A: even thinking that a power cable could possibly make an audible change in SQ (sound quality).  After all, convention wisdom (which I generally find to be neither) dictated that if you had enough power that was ALL you need -B; the diameter of my cables.  I could not make ANYONE there understand the concepts of: conductor purity, geometry, inductance, capacitance, dielectric absorption, dissipation factor, insulator Q, termination quality, transmission line theory, connectors and on and on and on and on and..........

In the words of a now passed theoretical physicist friend of mine that was a mentor (and a "gasp" Christian) that made me think of reasons, purposes and solutions to problems:  "we don't REALLY, on a quantum level understand how all of this (the universe) works".  we have to understand what we do not understand.  That is wisdom and the quest of thinking people.

The beauty of forums like this is that we can share and do joint research on stuff that DOES NOT WORK.  This kind of thing saves money and more importantly time.  I will be 68 on the 25th and I want to keep learning, sharing and developing products that meet the needs of most people.  I don't purport to be so arrogant as to say that I have the SUPER DUPER DOO-DAH that meets everyones need.

Damn, wish I did.

Rock on, guys what works, works.  Keep on chooglin'...

 8)

D
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe

Offline tmazz

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 12088
  • Just basking in the glow of my tubes.....
Re: PIAUDIO DIGIBUSS
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2016, 07:57:25 AM »
I don't purport to be so arrogant as to say that I have the SUPER DUPER DOO-DAH that meets everyones need.

Damn, wish I did.



Damn, we wish you did too.......  :D


Some most valuable professional advise I ever got was from one of my professors in Engineering school.

He said the most important thing an engineer need to know is just what he does not know. And the most critical skill he needs to develop is the ability to admit that.
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline dflee

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 569
Re: PIAUDIO DIGIBUSS
« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2016, 01:13:59 PM »
Dave could make that super duper doo dah, but nobody has invented the parts yet. (love the CCR reference)

Nit
"Enjoy pleasure, not because it is fleeting, but because it exists at all." Sacrament, Clive Barker.

Offline P.I.

  • Industry Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 1922
  • Silence is that blackness beneath the music
    • P.I. audio group, LLC
Re: PIAUDIO DIGIBUSS
« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2016, 08:25:28 PM »
Dave could make that super duper doo dah, but nobody has invented the parts yet. (love the CCR reference)

Nit
Im working on the parts.  I built a vey small flux capacitor.  I'm just trying to figure out how to not have to get it up to 88mph to work.  I'm close   |:D|
"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." - Hilmar von Campe