AudioNervosa
Electro Stimulation Ward => Signals and Noise => Topic started by: LKdog on August 26, 2007, 06:39:03 AM
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Thought maybe it would be useful to start a separate thread on the new Grover IC's.
If that is not OK, mods can remove.
My first comments:
1) Pretty detailed and open which is a positive
2) Kind of edgy and forward-not so positive
3) Nice build quality
I am guessing they go through some changes for awhile.
I have about 36 hours on them right now.
How long for break in?
Any other comments welcome!
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I just plugged in my new graphite IC's... replacing the previous all-white versions... Once they get a few hours on them, I'll swap in the older white ones and make some comparion notes. At the moment, they sound pretty good to me... but yesterday I was at a 6-hour speaker, amp, preamp, dac, and cable comparison... with speakers that are a lot more forward than my own... So, they sound pretty relaxed at the moment. ;)
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Once they get a few hours on them, I'll swap in the older white ones and make some comparion notes.
Great.....I still have mine from the first Group Buy...I've not updated them yet. Thanks....
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I was on a roll for the past hour or 2 and compared:
Grovers newest to the previous version (the ones with white techflex and white shrinktube; forever called 'ww' to me now vs. 'graphite' for the new version.)
Grover's ww's to JPS labs IC's (don't know which one, they're purple and have '3' in the name)
JPS Labs to Reality Cables
Audience Au24 to JPS Labs
Reality Cables to Audience Au24
Grover's graphites to Reality Cables
I like them all but each one does its own thing well. Here's a brief summary:
Audience is best at pace/timing, also does imaging well
JPS Labs has great instrument separation and realistic vocals.. Imaging is very good too.
Reality Cables have great decay and realistic mid details, good imaging
Grover's ww's are great at a fairly neutral and detailed presentation
Grover's graphites ruthlessly reveal upper mid and high details, but these really need a lot more break-in.
In my system I use:
McIntosh MC220 preamp
McIntosh MC402 amp
Audio PC
Scott Nixon's latest uber-DAC
Reality Cables for SC's
Dedicated outlet to RSA Haley
All preamps and sources powered by Haley
All power cords are Black Sand Cable
I'll play around with these a bit more and come up with better character descriptions.
Thanks,
Carl
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I updated my signature to list my two channel system.
In general this setup is very slightly on the warm side of neutral as a reference or baseline to
my comments on the Grovers.
Looking forward to what people experience with these IC's.
-Tony
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Mine are at 72 hours now, but I haven't listened to anything since last night, and I may give one quick listen before swapping my new Reality SCs in place of the cotton telegraph wire that I'm now using. I got the Realitys yesterday but haven't even opened the box yet. I'll report back later today or tomorrow (feeling a bit under the weather today.)
-- Jim
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Jim-
Look forward to hearing your comments.
The clarity with these so far is quite good.
--Tony
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So, I've now had the Reality SCs in place and playing for a couple hours, and as is pretty typical, the results are mixed. The Realitys are certainly more even from top to bottom, and that's a very good thing. They also add a lot of weight to the bottom end -- also a good thing. The detail that the Grover's had brought is still there but somewhat recessed, and there's still a bit of an edge on the very top end. However... here's what I'm thinking is going on... My amp is sitting on the floor on a pair of 2" thick maple platforms with Mapleshade iso-blocks under them, and no other isolation. From the first day I knew this was a problem because I could put my finger lightly on the chassis and feel it vibrating with the bass notes. Now that the bass notes are significantly more pronounced (I can really feel the floor vibrating at the listening position at levels much less than was required to do this before) so I'm pretty sure the added vibration is causing some loss of detail, ambience information (such as reverberations caused by the recording studio walls, etc.), and may also be partly to blame for the edge on the highs. This is a pretty typical behavior for an improperly isolated tube amp, as is the general veil over everything that wasn't there before the Realitys were put in.
I also know that the stock Denon 3910 has a bit of glare on the top end -- that's why we put a set of HRS Nimbuses under them -- that made things much better -- tighter bass, and greatly reduced glare, but it did not get rid of it entirely, and what I have now seems to be about the same as it was before Grovers. I hope all that made sense.
My gut feeling right now is that the new Grovers and Realitys could end up being a very nice combination, but I won't know until the new rack is setup and everything is properly isolated. Sending the 3910 to Dan Wright for the top end mods will also help quite a bit.
Then after all that is dialed in, it will be time to find the right replacements for the EH 12AU7s and 12AX7s, and the 5AR4, which again, from experience, is going to make a significant improvement as well.
Good that this audio thing isn't a race.
A couple more days with the current setup, and it will be time to take it all apart and get on with the remodel that is going to allow for better placement (further apart, and further from the front wall) of the speakers, a proper rack, and better electrical distribution (which although not planned this way, looks like I will have the audio system on it's own breaker.) I did look into running a dedicated line or two, but because the basement is already finished, and a number of other issues, it would cost way too much to get the wire run, and then a lot more to repair all the damage along the way. Not going there. :D
So for now, I'm not going to have anything more to say about all this until everything is setup again in it's new home -- though I will say, it looks very much like the Grovers will be staying for a good while.
I will be very interested to hear what everybody else thinks as their cables settle down, and I'm still going to keep an open mind about the Grover SCs.
Whatever happens, the one thing I can definitely say about these ICs is that they sound waaaaay better than their price would suggest.
-- Jim
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Jim....
Good that this audio thing isn't a race.
Right....you got it Jim....sit back ....listen...and enjoy... 8)
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My initial impression is that the G-Grovers makes my (usually)laid back Sonographe A250 sound pretty aggressive. I am getting/hearing a lot more mid and high frequency energy than I am used to. I am hearing more detail.
The G-Grovers replaced silver MAC AQ with SS-Bullet RCAs.
So far I have about 20-25 hours on them. Already they have smoothed out some of the rough edginess I heard when first connected.
We will see how they change as the hours rack up on them.
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Ok, I am at about 60 or so hours of break in of 24/7 playing music.
The detail and capturing of ambience in recording environment is quite extraordinary with these IC's.
Good soundstaging height/width and front to back.
Excellent resolution, especially of lower mid and bass.
Still seem too hot in the upper mid and treble range. They are fatiguing to be honest right now.
Not sure how else to describe it.
Others are using terms like "aggressive, edgy, ruthlessly revealing" so I am at least not alone in my experience as these break in. To be fair-it sounds like some other folks are not experiencing such a hyped upper mid or treble and are extremely pleased.
Does anyone know how long Grover actually recommends for break in?
Maybe Grover can chime in here.
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Grover's still on vacation, I believe. He normally recommends 50 hours for ICs. You should be getting close to the final sound now. I only notice break in for about 20-30 hours on his stuff. ICs were far less noticeable change than SCs. They sounded good right out of the box to me. Tin ears, I guess...
I know that treble clarity is greatly enhanced with these cables compared to others with less treble transparency. Some people sensitive to treble may not like it, one friend is very sensitive and prefers them, another golden ear I know does not like them due to the treble quality. It may seem like forward treble, but listen to see if you're hearing higher freqs and clearer treble or if it is really unbalanced in volume compared to the lower freqs. They are a big difference compared to some ICs. Maybe you don't like "the grover sound??" Or maybe they don't gel with your rig.
I have not tried the new ICs yet, I will hook them up today and see if I can hear any noticeable difference between new and old. I think someone maybe said it is only the connectors that have changed?
Rich
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I am breaking in the Grover S graphite IC's and V-cap coupling cap's in my tube amplifier both at the same time. With roughly 48 hours on the IC's and caps the sound now is somewhat forward but it is in no way objectionable,in fact it is very enjoyable to listen to for hours on end. in time things will become more relaxed. it is a waiting game that i have played before and that i will no doubt play again. I have zero doubt that at the end of this burn in cycle i will be very satisfied with both purchases. :D thanks....WCW III
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I am hoping they calm down just a bit more.
They are quite stunning in their clarity and I enjoy them very much except for the hot areas of the spectrum right now.
As noted, my setup tends to have a very slight warmly voiced character as a baseline so I am kind of surprised.
Will see how they evolve.
Thanks for the input guys!
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Confirm that Grover is still on 2 weeks vacation in the mountains ...
(started back around August 18)...
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Others are using terms like "aggressive, edgy, ruthlessly revealing" so I am at least not alone in my experience as these break in. To be fair-it sounds like some other folks are not experiencing such a hyped upper mid or treble and are extremely pleased.
I'm right there with you, dog. Waiting for the 'ahhhh' moment... I've been comparing IC's for 3 days now... And I've decided to keep the Grover's playing nonstop for 24 more hours before re-visiting so they get what they need.
Currently, the Reality Cables, Audience, and JPS labs sc3's are all sounding very good, with slightly different characters.... I could live with any of the 3. The Grover white cables are a little clinical compared to the slightly romanticized sound of these other 3.... The graphites need break-in.
-C
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My impressions to follow. Two pairs of Grover ICs with over 72 continuous hours of burn-in. My system, which used to be slightly to the cooler side, has vintage speakers and more current gear, in a dedicated listening room:
Odyssey Extreme Mono amps, VH cryoed Audio Flavor 4 PCs
Odyssey Tempest preamp, VH Audio cryoed Flavor 2 PC
Jolida JD-100 cdp, VH Audio cryoed Flavor 1 PC, Sylvania Gold Label JHS 5751WA tubes
Rega P25 with Denon DL103R cart, Pete Riggle VTAF
Tweaked Polk SDA 1C speakers with the improved RD1094-1 silk tweeters, a custom built A1 inter-speaker IC/interface, Groneberg Quattro speaker cables
Almost all components sit on heavy granite slabs, including the speakers. Exception is the TT, which rests on cones on marble on another set of cones on A.R.T. Q-dampers. Also have a piece of granite on the top of the JD-100.
Dedicated 20A lines: two duplexes handle the amps, pre, and TT. One duplex for the cdp.
All component (RCA, RCA connectors, PC male prongs, IEC prongs) are treated with Walker SST, including tube pins and Polk speaker external and internal connections. No SST yet on the Grover ICs.
The genres I've listened to include classical, alternative, rock, blues, opera, jazz. Lots of classical during the burn-in period.
Finding: Excellent detail retrieval across the board. Very good to excellent soundstage width, very good height, seems to have a bit less depth at the moment - soundstage is slightly pushed forward. Very good to excellent imaging, can pick out instrument location easily. SDA effect now on some material is past mindblowing, for example, try listening to Kruder Dorfmeister - The K&D Sessions; I put this to the excellent imaging and detail.
Haven't run too much of the TT yet, so don't want to do any reporting in that area outside of that I've liked what I've heard so far.
I know the Jolida isn't top of the line in cdps, yet I find it's easy to listen to and the Sylvanias make quite a bit of difference in giving a palpable 3D presentation and some midrange lushness. I think perhaps the player, the tubes, and my choice of PCs may be responsible partly for me not hearing a hot top end as some have reported. Is the top more present than before? Absolutely. Is this a negative? In my system with my gear to my ears - absolutely not. I note the bottom is more present than before, and I thought I previously had plenty of that; bottom end is decidedly more tuneful and impactful than it was previously. The mids seem well presented and have gobs of detail, well, there's tons of detail across the spectrum. Previously my system seemed to present female voices somewhat better than male voices, but now they each present equally well and better than before. Not sure why the male voices now are presenting as well as the female voices...
At this point in time, these ICs work more than nicely for me, and I'm hoping it stays that way. LKdog said, "They are quite stunning in their clarity." I'm finding this and more to be true. I'm sure the results of others will be system and preference dependent, as always YMMV.
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I have received some helpful consultation on my break in routine.
I think leaving my system running at very low volumes is not sending much current through the new wire. :duh
Will check back in a couple days after giving them a better workout. :rofl:
Thanks Rich for the advice. :D
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I hope it is correct :shock: ;) That's just what I do, seems to work with grover wires anyway.
Carl you have the new JPS Superconductor "Q," not the SC3. It is cheaper, but I don't know how much.
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You really don't even need your amp on at all for breaking in ICs. The input impedance of the amp stays more or less constant and determines the amount of current that will be pulled through the IC. The fastest way to pull maximum current through an IC is to take a female RCA and solder a 10k resistor between the center pin and ground, then plug the IC load end into it and put your CD player or squeezebox on repeat using a CD with a good range of frequencies and dynamics.
Most amps these days are 100k input impedance, so 10k will draw 10 times the current -- but don't go below 10k as you can overdo it as well.
Now that I'm saying this I'm reminding myself that I really need to do this myself and make a couple of pairs -- one for squeezebox break-in, and another for ICs.
A cable burner could also help, but even if you have one, I still think probably 80% of what goes through the IC should be real music. Same goes for break-in disks like XLO, etc.
HTH,
Jim
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Thanks guys for the tips. Will give it more time and check back later this week. :)
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Quick update.
These now have 120 hours on them.
Have done a few things suggested to settle them in.
They are probably about what they are going to be.
Have to say I am torn.
In many ways the resolution/detail/imaging/clarity in the midrange on down is fantastic-the best my system has ever sounded. Following basslines is a new revelation with these IC's.
Sort of the old cliche of a "veil has been lifted" thing.
From upper midrange on up they are still a little too hot for my liking.
Great clarity but on the borderline and over the line of edgy or clinical at times still.
Depends upon the recording, of course, but brighter recording mastering or those using compression to make a hotter sound are too hot IMO with these IC's. I do some Pro Audio DAW mixing and recording for fun in another setup and a thought I have had is that these cables would be a recording engineer's dream as they are so revealing. Maybe why Steve Hoffman allegedly likes the Grover sound? Just guessing.
These impressions are in my system that leaned slightly toward being warm and relaxed before, especially after I added the Alan Maher Power Enhancer filters to my dedicated circuit.
I am using Amperex 7316 input tubes in my line stage which are known for their tremendous clarity.
Maybe the synergy of these IC's with the ultra clear 7316's is too much of a good thing.
I do have some CBS-Hytron 5814wa's I may try which are my other favorite tube for my preamp line stage. That tube is warmer than the Amperex and rounder-but still pretty resolving and punchy.
Overall, I would have to say these are exciting IC's with an extraordinary clarity.
Exciting and engaging-maybe a bit too much so for some.
Not sure whether they will work out for sure with me and that I will keep them, but these are certainly quite special and impressive nonetheless.
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Applied Walker SST to the Grover ICs last night before retiring, and finally got a chance to do some listening this afternoon. All my favorable impressions of the ICs remain. Additionally, the soundstage has regained its depth, imaging and detail have both slightly improved as well. Good stuff all around.
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Good to know. I'll try it when my system is moved to it's new home.
My Nordost dealer friend said that I should really let her cook these on the Nordost Vidar cable cooker. She says it's the most impressive cable cooker she's ever used -- apparently can make noticeable improvements in even well seasoned cables.
While renovations are happening here, I'm going to give her all my ICs and the Reality SCs to cook -- each will get 2 4-day cycles, and she says that I will easily hear a positive, and distinct improvement.
I'm somewhat skeptical as to how much change they will show, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. This is one of those no-brainers -- can't hurt anything, and doesn't cost anything to try.
As I said though, things are sounding pretty decent for a fairly new system right now, and do really appear to be improving.
-- Jim
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what do these grover-g's look like? i just bought a pair of white grovers in june or july and he had just updated them, have they been changed again? i think the ones i have are like the ones from the second group buy when grover said he would upgrade the ones from the first group buy.
HELP...confussed.
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This is RCA ICs from the 2nd group buy, just shipped last week.
(http://parkwestlake.com/nopw/rich/groverrca.jpg)
First GB was all white. Maybe upgrading to latest spec stays all white and just updates the technical spec. The upgrade was free, so I wouldn't expect him to issue all new cables if he could avoid it. Did you notice a difference when you got yours upgraded?
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mine are white but they do say grover s on them. i didn't have mine upgraded, they came new from grover.
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I actually prefer the all white version, which is the previous latest version. ;)
The new 'graphite' colored ones are good too, just a little too detailed for me. I like the 2000-foot view... ;) haha..
Seriously, the history that I am aware and my opinion on the sound signatures:
1 Grover sent us demo pairs of white Grover's with black shrink tube; sounded good but seemed a little less pronounced in the mids
2 By the time the first group by was organized, Grover had already upgraded them to have a little more midrange warmth or detail but didn't lose any highs or lows... So, that's what everyone got.
3 AN organized a tour for 'round 2' group buy...
4 By the time the order went in for round 2, Grover had upgraded the cables again to the graphite version, which have the same lows and mids but seem to have more detail in the highs.
That's what I've seen. I would say there is a family resemblance of the various upgraded cables for sure but if I could make a suggestion, I'd split the whites and graphites into 2 different 'flavors' and sell both.
-C
P.S. Nice 'tography, Rich. :)
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Carlman-
Are the Grover whites from the first group buy a little more forgiving in the treble range in your opinion?
-Tony
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Carlman-
Are the Grover whites from the first group buy a little more forgiving in the treble range in your opinion?
-Tony
Yes, I think it's the additional (or warmer?) midrange makes the highs seem 'sweeter' to me on the white/white Grover's... Not sure why exactly, this is just a theory.
-C
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Thanks Carl-
Will continue to let these Grover graphites run in.
Some have suggested to me that cables with silver wire and/or silver connectors may really need 200 or more hours of break in.
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I actually prefer the all white version, which is the previous latest version. ;)
The new 'graphite' colored ones are good too, just a little too detailed for me. I like the 2000-foot view... ;) haha..
Seriously, the history that I am aware and my opinion on the sound signatures:
1 Grover sent us demo pairs of white Grover's with black shrink tube; sounded good but seemed a little less pronounced in the mids
2 By the time the first group by was organized, Grover had already upgraded them to have a little more midrange warmth or detail but didn't lose any highs or lows... So, that's what everyone got.
3 AN organized a tour for 'round 2' group buy...
4 By the time the order went in for round 2, Grover had upgraded the cables again to the graphite version, which have the same lows and mids but seem to have more detail in the highs.
That's what I've seen. I would say there is a family resemblance of the various upgraded cables for sure but if I could make a suggestion, I'd split the whites and graphites into 2 different 'flavors' and sell both.
-C
P.S. Nice 'tography, Rich. :)
And quoting myself from "latest white Grover S interconnects" thread :
" [I had and used] first white Grover S and now 2nd white version Grover S.
I had to send the first version white Grover S back to Grover to update to the latest white Grover S, so never physically had both at same time to compare sonically side by side. The first white Grover S were excellent and left me feeling I was just listening to the music after burn-in, but the second/current white Grover S reveal yet another significant layer of musical detail/ambience that in my judgment, this one goes more than half-way from first white Grover S to whatever could be expected as the "endpoint" for any "audio nirvana" IC to sound like. (Sorta like the old Greek "Zeno's Paradox") "
I got what I called second white Grover S some time after the first group buy and expected based on Grover's e-mails that this would be the design folks would receive in the second group buy. I did hint to Grover that a darker color Techflex might be appreciated by folks to better disappear around their gear.
When I heard of the darker color Techflex covering showing up in the group buy, I asked Grover if there were any design changes other than the cover coloring. He sent a quick reply that he was off for a 2 weeks vacation after finishing the group buy cables...
I have not seen/heard the Grover S w/"graphite" Techflex (when Grover e-mailed me last he called them "charcoal" color).
Were the Grover S cables on "tour" between first and second group buy white techflex with white heatshrink?
If so they may be the ones I have currently and were the second (or third?) white Grover S design.
If the graphite/charcoal Grovers have too much treble or treble detail for some,
I would still recommend to get the most recent white Grover design as it is well beyond the first (and second?) white Grovers and sounds very well balanced in my system.
Grover should be back soon from the 2 weeks in the mountains and hopefully can address any changes he may have made in the design of the graphite/charcoal ICs ...
rlmacklin
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System:
double cryoed Oyaide R1 duplex wall outlets to Black Sand Cable Silver Ref MkV power cords to all three Odyssey power amps and also to the PS Audio Power Plant Premier, which feeds entire front end (sources and 3 preamps) through Black Sand Violet power cords.
front l/r: stock Denon 3910 > white Grover S ICs > Modwright SWL 9.0 Signature with Bendix 6900s and cryoed Philips metal base GZ34 NOS 1957 > white Grover S ICs > Odyssey Mono Extreme SE amps with Klaus's "special boards" > Grover S bi-wire speaker cables > Polk Audio SRS-2 speakers (with custom SDA cable made from Grover UR speaker cable)
center: stock Denon 3910 > white Grover S IC > Sunfire Symphonic Reference preamp > white Grover S IC > Odyssey HT-3 power amp with capacitance upgrades > Grover SR speaker cable > Polk Audio Csi-5 speaker
l/r surround: stock Denon 3910 > white Grover S ICs > PS Audio PCA-2 preamp > white Grover S ICs > Odyssey HT-3 power amp with capacitance upgrade > Grover UR speaker cables > Polk Audio Fxi-5 speakers
"
******************************************************************************
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rl-
Thanks for the info.
Did you feel that the "second" white Grover S's (that are most likely these same Grover charcoals/graphites) were a bit more revealing in the treble than the Grover S whites from the 1st Group Buy?
-thx-
Tony
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So, it sounds like I'm missing a version... I thought there were 3 but there are actually 4:
There was wb (white w/ black techflex) the first we received at AN for the tour
Then wwI (white w/white techflex) my fave, more mids
*Then wwII (white/white) A change to termination?
Then graphite or charcoal ... Same as wwII?
So, there are 4 versions of the "Grover S".
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Kinda makes your head hurt, don't it? Given the frequency of Grover's changes, perhaps he should begin versioning the cables like software build releases.
Carl, my understanding was that what you're calling wwI was, in fact, the termination-only upgrade over the white w/black cables. I asked Grover about my white w/black XLR ICs when the white w/white cables were shipped and he replied that the only change was to the terminations on the RCA ICs. So I'm not sure there was two versions of the white w/white. But then, only Grover knows for sure.
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Hope this doesn't make your heads hurt worse...
but for historical accuracy I checked my saved e-mails to/from Grover
and there were 2 versions of black Grover S before any white Grover S !
3/12/07 to Grover:
I joined up on the AudioNervosa forum and saw the Grover vs. Stealth Indra comparison in the works/underway. In particular I noted the "Grover is really excited about the new version he's sending."
Are these an even newer Grover S than what I have now?
If so, what do I need to get some ???
3/13/07 to Grover:
Thanks for your prompt reply and your promise to keep me up to date.
I look forward to getting and hearing your new S when you are satisfied with it.
3/29/07 to Grover:
When can we get the latest/greatest Grover S cables???
5/9/07 to Grover:
The white Grover S cables were awaiting in Oak Ridge last evening - got them installed last night.
Certainly no negatives noticed yet -these seem a bit quieter, more relaxed, smoother - but also preserve or improve on usual high level of detail, yet the detail sounds "richer" to me so far.
5/13/07 to Grover:
The white Techflex jacketed Grover S raise the bar another substantial notch over the 2nd iteration black Grover S. I'm basically listening to nothing but the music with these new ones!
5/18/07 to Grover:
Enjoying the music so much with the white Grover S with more burn-in..
These resolve way "deeper" into the recording. Hearing vastly more of the room ambience and music details/harmonics and sustain/decay phase of all the notes/instruments/voices to where they now sound
more "complete" to me.
Learned of new iteration Grover S and sent first white Grover S back to Grover
5/31/07 to Grover:
Did you get the white Grover S cables yet which I sent back to you ?
6/10/2007 to Grover:
new Grover S ICs have arrived...
6/11/07 to Grover:
=) Got all the new cables in and was listening to music most of the way through until 2 AM. this morning.
First reaction was Revelatory!
Hard to believe there was yet another layer of musical detail on the media and extracted by the player but not getting all the way through the system to the speakers because it was not passed through by even previous iteration white Grover S. As there is some of this previously masked or hidden musical detail in the frequency extremes, it sounds as if there may be additional frequency extension of bass and treble, but still great balance as the additional detail is presented in the midrange as well...
6/13/07 to Grover:
For Audio Nervosa folks who bought the first white Grover S in their demo tour before the first group buy , they are starting a new thread to sort of consolidate their Grover S reviews.
As they will start a second group buy soon, I am wondering if you could or would let them know that what they would get in a second group buy is "in another league" (at least as far as I am concerned). Those who got first white Grover S and buy more (as some are considering) will surely notice the improvement.
Have you sent "Carlman" (Carl MacMillan in North Carolina) any of the latest ones for a second demo tour?
I remember sharing the mathematical Zeno's Paradox onetime, where each step toward an endpoint, if you get halfway closer to the end each time you will never get there theoretically, but at some step it becomes so close as to be insignificant in real world.
The first white Grover S I had were very good, but I can only imagine that the 2nd white Grover S are a larger step than half-way from those ones to the ultimate/nirvana IC.
6/19/07 to Grover:
2nd white Grover S ICs continue to burn in and are the most detailed, most extended, most open, most musical, and smoothest of all your efforts.
6/21/07 to Grover:
The 2nd iteration white Grover S ICs continue to keep me immersed in the music and if anything have only gotten better.
8/17/07 to Grover:
Rich posted a picture of the Audio Nervosa Grover S group buy cables he received and they are in dark techflex again. Did you make any other changes to the Grover S from the white version I have?
8/31 to Grover:
If you are back from the mountains, please check the new thread for the latest dark Techflex Grover S which they are calling Grover "graphite" at Audio Nervosa, in the Cranioelectric Stimulation section,
Topic: New Grover IC impressions (August 2007 graphite version)
You may wish to address any design changes in the "charcoal" Grover S....
Some 2nd group buy folks are saying the "graphite" seems too "hot" (or has too much/unbalanced detail) in treble.
I got a reply from Sherie, who said Grover is not back yet (sometime this weekend!) but she will make sure he gets my latest e-mail as soon as he gets back.
rlmacklin
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ok, i have the last all white grovers before this charcoal colored one. i found something very interesting, i have the grovers between my preamp and power amp and it is ohh so neutral but add another pair between the dac and preamp and :( i can't stand it...too bright. go figure, so i only have one pair of grovers as one of my reference cables.
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Hope this doesn't make your heads hurt worse...
but for historical accuracy I checked my saved e-mails to/from Grover
and there were 2 versions of black Grover S before any white Grover S !
3/12/07 to Grover:
I joined up on the AudioNervosa forum and saw the Grover vs. Stealth Indra comparison in the works/underway. In particular I noted the "Grover is really excited about the new version he's sending."
Are these an even newer Grover S than what I have now?
If so, what do I need to get some ???
3/13/07 to Grover:
Thanks for your prompt reply and your promise to keep me up to date.
I look forward to getting and hearing your new S when you are satisfied with it.
3/29/07 to Grover:
When can we get the latest/greatest Grover S cables???
5/9/07 to Grover:
The white Grover S cables were awaiting in Oak Ridge last evening - got them installed last night.
Certainly no negatives noticed yet -these seem a bit quieter, more relaxed, smoother - but also preserve or improve on usual high level of detail, yet the detail sounds "richer" to me so far.
5/13/07 to Grover:
The white Techflex jacketed Grover S raise the bar another substantial notch over the 2nd iteration black Grover S. I'm basically listening to nothing but the music with these new ones!
5/18/07 to Grover:
Enjoying the music so much with the white Grover S with more burn-in..
These resolve way "deeper" into the recording. Hearing vastly more of the room ambience and music details/harmonics and sustain/decay phase of all the notes/instruments/voices to where they now sound
more "complete" to me.
Learned of new iteration Grover S and sent first white Grover S back to Grover
5/31/07 to Grover:
Did you get the white Grover S cables yet which I sent back to you ?
6/10/2007 to Grover:
new Grover S ICs have arrived...
6/11/07 to Grover:
=) Got all the new cables in and was listening to music most of the way through until 2 AM. this morning.
First reaction was Revelatory!
Hard to believe there was yet another layer of musical detail on the media and extracted by the player but not getting all the way through the system to the speakers because it was not passed through by even previous iteration white Grover S. As there is some of this previously masked or hidden musical detail in the frequency extremes, it sounds as if there may be additional frequency extension of bass and treble, but still great balance as the additional detail is presented in the midrange as well...
6/13/07 to Grover:
For Audio Nervosa folks who bought the first white Grover S in their demo tour before the first group buy , they are starting a new thread to sort of consolidate their Grover S reviews.
As they will start a second group buy soon, I am wondering if you could or would let them know that what they would get in a second group buy is "in another league" (at least as far as I am concerned). Those who got first white Grover S and buy more (as some are considering) will surely notice the improvement.
Have you sent "Carlman" (Carl MacMillan in North Carolina) any of the latest ones for a second demo tour?
I remember sharing the mathematical Zeno's Paradox onetime, where each step toward an endpoint, if you get halfway closer to the end each time you will never get there theoretically, but at some step it becomes so close as to be insignificant in real world.
The first white Grover S I had were very good, but I can only imagine that the 2nd white Grover S are a larger step than half-way from those ones to the ultimate/nirvana IC.
6/19/07 to Grover:
2nd white Grover S ICs continue to burn in and are the most detailed, most extended, most open, most musical, and smoothest of all your efforts.
6/21/07 to Grover:
The 2nd iteration white Grover S ICs continue to keep me immersed in the music and if anything have only gotten better.
8/17/07 to Grover:
Rich posted a picture of the Audio Nervosa Grover S group buy cables he received and they are in dark techflex again. Did you make any other changes to the Grover S from the white version I have?
8/31 to Grover:
If you are back from the mountains, please check the new thread for the latest dark Techflex Grover S which they are calling Grover "graphite" at Audio Nervosa, in the Cranioelectric Stimulation section,
Topic: New Grover IC impressions (August 2007 graphite version)
You may wish to address any design changes in the "charcoal" Grover S....
Some 2nd group buy folks are saying the "graphite" seems too "hot" (or has too much/unbalanced detail) in treble.
I got a reply from Sherie, who said Grover is not back yet (sometime this weekend!) but she will make sure he gets my latest e-mail as soon as he gets back.
rlmacklin
My head does hurt. :duh
I keep thinking, though, of When Harry met Sally in the restaurant scene where Meg Ryan fakes an O when she is eating (your 6/19/07) comment.
I'll have what she is having. :rofl:
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ok, i have the last all white grovers before this charcoal colored one. i found something very interesting, i have the grovers between my preamp and power amp and it is ohh so neutral but add another pair between the dac and preamp and :( i can't stand it...too bright. go figure, so i only have one pair of grovers as one of my reference cables.
I am using two sets. :shock:
1) Source to Preamp
2) Preamp to amps
May explain my experience of the treble being a tad too hot or hard.
Does seem to have calmed down a little bit from 120 hours to 160 hours.
Maybe there is more break in ahead.
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:shock: :( :x :rofl: :duh
What's the right reaction??? Well we are on the cutting edge of madness, so what to expect? At least it's only a cable and not a 50 pound speaker or amp that has to be sent back X times! I'm holding off sending mine back until Grover replies to our concerns and this gets sorted out. (hmmm do I hear the sound of collective grunts?) The good news is that we are heavy weight tester/clients.
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I honestly believe that the stated break-in time is only what is needed to get one past the harshest period and given my experience with silver, these won't fully settle into their final sound until 400 - 500 hours of playing time. At least that's what I'm hoping will happenn.
-- Jim
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Hi everyone, I'm back. I have to admit I'm surprised. I thought you guys would be in audio heaven. Of course the highest frequencies are the most critical when listening for every stage of the audio chain. In my opinion these charcoal cables are extraordinary though out the frequency range. The White cables to me were a little rolled off up there without the resolving power needed to hear say a single triangle in the mist of the orchestra. I also think the charcoal cables have a finer cleaner character. I know every thing is system dependent, but in my opinion hardness in the upper mids and highs may be elsewhere in the chain. Digital is very sensitive in this respect. If some wish I can change the cables to change the high frequency character, but I don't recommend it. Copper cables sound smooth and cover over many equipment flaws, but the sound is also covered, and not very revealing in my opinion. I worked hard to perfect these cables as you have read from Rmacklin. To me the ability of these cables to resolve the being at the recording session with lush smooth musicality especially in the vocals makes these cables very remarkable.
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Hi Grover, how about a brief rundown of your audio system? BTW, keep up the good work!
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Grover, some of us are in audio heaven - see this (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=597.msg5632#msg5632) and this (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=597.msg5715#msg5715). :beer:
Interesting comment / opinion about a system's digital source possibly being responsible for hearing some "harshness". I remember reading a post in which one was using two sets of the ICs, and kind of pointed in this same direction.
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Hi everyone, I'm back. I have to admit I'm surprised. I thought you guys would be in audio heaven. Of course the highest frequencies are the most critical when listening for every stage of the audio chain. In my opinion these charcoal cables are extraordinary though out the frequency range. The White cables to me were a little rolled off up there without the resolving power needed to hear say a single triangle in the mist of the orchestra. I also think the charcoal cables have a finer cleaner character. I know every thing is system dependent, but in my opinion hardness in the upper mids and highs may be elsewhere in the chain. Digital is very sensitive in this respect. If some wish I can change the cables to change the high frequency character, but I don't recommend it. Copper cables sound smooth and cover over many equipment flaws, but the sound is also covered, and not very revealing in my opinion. I worked hard to perfect these cables as you have read from Rmacklin. To me the ability of these cables to resolve the being at the recording session with lush smooth musicality especially in the vocals makes these cables very remarkable.
The graphite S IC's are my new reference.in my system they are stellar from top to bottom.they offer a slightly forward but in no way bright perspective and dont seem to color the sound.for the goals that i have set for the sound of my tube rig they fit it to a Tee! thanks....WCW III
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Hi everyone, I'm back. I have to admit I'm surprised. I thought you guys would be in audio heaven. Of course the highest frequencies are the most critical when listening for every stage of the audio chain. In my opinion these charcoal cables are extraordinary though out the frequency range. The White cables to me were a little rolled off up there without the resolving power needed to hear say a single triangle in the mist of the orchestra. I also think the charcoal cables have a finer cleaner character. I know every thing is system dependent, but in my opinion hardness in the upper mids and highs may be elsewhere in the chain. Digital is very sensitive in this respect. If some wish I can change the cables to change the high frequency character, but I don't recommend it. Copper cables sound smooth and cover over many equipment flaws, but the sound is also covered, and not very revealing in my opinion. I worked hard to perfect these cables as you have read from Rmacklin. To me the ability of these cables to resolve the being at the recording session with lush smooth musicality especially in the vocals makes these cables very remarkable.
Grover-
I think those that are enjoying the cables may be using tubes or have a system that matches up well with the character of the cables.
I do have other tubes I can use to tame things down, but I am not sure I wish to start that merry go round. I like the Amperex 7316's I am using due to their extraordinary balance and clarity without glare. Their reputation as a reference tube is well deserved.
As far as assigning causation to "something else in the chain".......... [-X
I have used all silver IC's for years. My system is quite similar to many here and the amps/preamp/speakers are voiced quite neutral to slightly warm.
My modded source measures as flat as anything Paul Weitzel ever created at TRL.
In addition I have extensive room tx and AC power filtering-all the usual stuff we obsessive fools do. :lol:
My system is inherently warm/analog sounding.
I just think the IC's are slightly forward (there is complete consensus on this point), and they border on too hot for some tastes in the treble.
I am going to give them a couple more weeks of break in to see if they work out.
They are quite good without a doubt in many ways. The midrange on down is excellent.
You state you have voiced them differently in the high end.
It appears some people love that and some who have your previous versions are not so sure.
Can't please everybody, especially in this nutty group.
Best regards.
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Can't please everybody, especially in this nutty group.
Best regards.
Amen. It should be about what works for each individual, being comfortable to know what one prefers, with an eye to the wallet as well for most of us. NOTE: I'm not constrained by WAF per divorce, but with my youngest starting college, the wallet's definitely a factor. [-o<
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Can't please everybody, especially in this nutty group.
Best regards.
Amen. It should be about what works for each individual, being comfortable to know what one prefers, with an eye to the wallet as well for most of us. NOTE: I'm not constrained by WAF per divorce, but with my youngest starting college, the wallet's definitely a factor. [-o<
Grover's cables are certainly a great value and likely can stand up well to cables at any price.
Like any cable it has to work with your setup. Some people love BMW's. Some people love Lexus.
Some people love Hummers. They are all excellent. Grover's cables are in the category of excellent-period-regardless of price is my guess.
Speaker wire and IC's especially are a total joke in terms of markup.
Look over on Audiogon and the prices for some IC's is in the thousands of dollars. :shock:
Sorry-there is nothing a $5000 piece of three foot wire can do that makes that amount of investment worthwhile. Yes, wire makes a difference and they are maybe even at the level of secondary components, but you have to have good equipment first and foremost.
With the relative price of the competition-Grover's cables are a ridiculous value.
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I really love the graphite version in my system. In my system it's perfectly balanced and is perfection. I know now that some systems might need a softer top end, in my opinion because of the front end. I believe that most digital front end tends to be hard in the upper midrange. It's because of the electrolyte capacitors that are used due to the necessity for the high microfard capacitance needed both in the power supply, and the analogue circuitry. I sincerely believe that with this graphite cable your hearing truly what you’re getting. That's one reason why tubes are used with digital, as they have a very smooth top end, and transistors tend to be a bit harsh up there when feedback is limited. My system is very sensitive to any harshness. All my electronics are my own design using subminiature tubes in the preamp stages. My amps also my own design using Russian transmitting tubes delivering 125 watts per amp. I use big Electro voice horns that are extraordinary resolving, and quick. The Electro voice Sentry III. My front end is a highly modified Pioneer Elite DVD player DV-05 it has soundly beat all comers even $6000 players, originally it also was hard and bright in the upper mids. If any one wants my modifications to the DVD player email me. If any one wants me to tone down the upper ranges it can be done quickly and easily, with out charge. It is my sincere desire to have everyone very satisfied with my cables.
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Grover,
Very, very cool system you have!
Can I ask what submini tubes you are using?
Just for the record, right now things are only slightly tipped up in my system, but practically everything is new and still breaking in, and with a few weeks of downtime rapidly approaching, it will be a while yet before I know the final verdict. My hunch as of now is that these are going to be a great match with my system, but it's good to know you can tone it down a bit should that be needed.
While I have your attention, can I ask what is the price for single run speaker cables, and can you make them with a spade on the speaker end? I know you would probably rather not do that, but I have a particular need for them.
Thanks,
Jim
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I hope we can always get the white on white cables from the first group buy. To me, those are the best.
It'd be nice if there were 2 versions offered, the S and the SII maybe... The first group buy and second group buy cables are different enough to do that in my opinion.... whatever that's worth. ;)
-C
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Of course I can make any version. So far many very reliable fanatics love the graphite version. Since I’m back I’ll take a close listen to both. I use the 5719 as the first amplifier, 6814 as the second amplifier, and the 5977 as the cathode follower. I use two feed back loops to stabilize the amps, very minimum feedback. The volume control is a single resistor with an audio pot to bleed the signal to ground, located behind the follower. Parallel capacitors chosen carefully to keep the signal linear. Any one who wants the first group buy cables may trade in the second group buy cables, or vice versa. At least this keeps things interesting.
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I really love the graphite version in my system. In my system it's perfectly balanced and is perfection. I know now that some systems might need a softer top end, in my opinion because of the front end. I believe that most digital front end tends to be hard in the upper midrange. It's because of the electrolyte capacitors that are used due to the necessity for the high microfard capacitance needed both in the power supply, and the analogue circuitry. I sincerely believe that with this graphite cable your hearing truly what you’re getting. That's one reason why tubes are used with digital, as they have a very smooth top end, and transistors tend to be a bit harsh up there when feedback is limited. My system is very sensitive to any harshness. All my electronics are my own design using subminiature tubes in the preamp stages. My amps also my own design using Russian transmitting tubes delivering 125 watts per amp. I use big Electro voice horns that are extraordinary resolving, and quick. The Electro voice Sentry III. My front end is a highly modified Pioneer Elite DVD player DV-05 it has soundly beat all comers even $6000 players, originally it also was hard and bright in the upper mids. If any one wants my modifications to the DVD player email me. If any one wants me to tone down the upper ranges it can be done quickly and easily, with out charge. It is my sincere desire to have everyone very satisfied with my cables.
You are sort of confirming what people are saying.
Perfectly balanced in your system which happens to be a custom tube preamp and tube power amp.
Interesting reference system and I am sure quite good. Not the norm, however.
They are close to ideal in my setup which is a very good tube pre and very good SS amps.
The last thing my system needed was a softer top end. The reason I actually bought these is because they were advertised as having extraordinary clarity, but still smooth. I was seeking a bit more resolution in my setup. Certainly got that.
Just talked to another person who has both recent Grover versions and he agrees that these have a lot of "extra energy" on top to his ears.
This is all phenomenological at a certain point as there is no IC that is perfect in all setups.
These are excellent IC's, Grover, without question.
Will give them a couple more weeks of burn in and let you know if I wish to have you turn them back a notch on top somehow or swap them for the most recent previous white version.
I appreciate the offer and I am sure something will work out.
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Grover,
The graphite RCA ICs that I just purchased are working extremely well in my system now that I've got a couple hundred hours on them. They're not going anywhere. Thank you!
What I am curious about is if your latest graphite XLR ICs would be an improvement over my earlier purchase of the white w/black XLR ICs from the earlier GB? I know when you switched from white w/black to white w/white, the change was only in the RCA terminations.
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Once again, I am blown away by Grover's willingness to try to make everyone happy. Something I try too hard to achieve, but rarely do... hehe Thanks, Grover.
I have had the Charcoal wires here for two weeks and have literally not had a chance to hook them up until tonight. I can see what you guys are talking about with the top end. It is noticeably enhanced but it is not overbearing to me. It is a lot more detailed, but is not annoying or aggressive. It adds a lot of air and presence to strings and brass, and as Grover said orchestral bells and tinkly things are wild, the overtones go on forever. These cables reveal more of what I love about tube amp treble.
I can now clearly hear the dirty growl in the chimes and triangle from my SB, I presume, since that distortion was not present with the Altmann DAC. The problem with lowering distortion in one place is now you can hear it in 3 other places. :? I'm sure the cables will change with some break in, and will be interesting to compare to whiteys next week. I'll try to finish the SC break in this week too.
Tony, you can still try my whites if you want to compare them directly.
No system is the 'norm,' they are all very 'special,' just like their owners... :rofl:
Rich
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Rich,
Yup, even though they were the white ICs you lent me, they did great things in concert with the minimax. It wasn't until I tried those that I really understood all the minimax was capable of.
-- Jim
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Grover has (graciously) agreed to upgrade the original demo pairs of cables for us to the first group buy version and the 2nd group buy version. So, I'll have a couple sets available if anyone wants to hear the newer graphites or white/white versions. Let me know and I'll ship either or both sets.
I'm shipping the old ones to Grover tomorrow so I'm guessing it'll be a couple of weeks but they may get done sooner.. just depends on Grover's schedule.
Thanks,
Carl
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Grover
I have the graphite IC's and posted a very positive review recently in another section on this site. I still have limited hours on them and need to break in my new speakers as well. The resolution on the graphite's is excellent and in my system, they are very enjoyable. I did demo the white's, but don't have a set of those to compare now. You really produce an excellent cable and great value for the money. Congratulations and thank you :clap:
Nick
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Carl, I still have one pair of the original set of four pair Grover sent as demos. I keep forgetting to return it to you. I can send to you tomorrow or direct to Grover. Lemme know.
Grover, after only 5 hours of playing, the cables sound awesome. They are exactly what you said, beautiful extension on the highs, a noticeable improvement, one very worthwhile for a PP tuber with yummy high freq. response. ;) Harmonics on brass, strings are stunningly clear including the grunge of the SB player screwing with them which is painfully obvious now. Great job! I think I will be sending my whites in for update after all! I will be sending a "tip" to cover some materials cost to do the update. I was content with the whites, they were everything you said they were at the time. Now there's something better, I don't mind paying to update it. I may not be in the majority here, though.... haha
Rich
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Well, I finally got a chance to listen to the Grover S XLR cables after about 200 hours of burning in. I have not had a pair of cables in the XLR format in my system that was of this calibre before so my reference is limited to what I have had in the system with another DAC and with single ended cables.
On with the First Impressions then!
Pros:
Quiet cables with good dark background
Dynamic in the low end. Really impressive on the lower bass notes.
Good low end extension. Really digs deep.
Spacious, good width and depth.
Smooth, no raspiness that is apparent to the cable, when the source has some raspy stuff the cable will reproduce it.
Reminds me of my Jaden Signature single ended cables
Concerns:
Some mids, not all, seem a little recessed, perhaps that is the newfound depth.
Some instruments with tones in the upper midrange seem to be tonally off a tad. eg. trumpet. Will have to do some more listening
Cymbals don't quite seem right, many times the weight is lacking, kind of like a thinner cymbal than normal, less brassy.
Some percussive effects lack the leading transient edge.
Some acoustic guitar tracks seem to have too much fingerboard emphasis.
Piano seems a bit light on the upper keys on a few reference recordings as do certain strings like harp.
I am impressed with the cables and they are clearly a good value. I have some more listening to do, since this is only a first pass based on about 3 hours of listening.
cheers
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I have been reading the Grover cable impressions and reactions with fascination and some surprise. I've been holding back on commiting my impressions of my RCA 1 meter cables to print for a few reasons:
- they needed a good amount of break-in time
- I needed to find the time to swap around cables and experiment
- my main amplifier is out for modification (Hurricanes) and I am using a second system amp/speakers
Equipment in current use: Rega 25 turntable, Benz Glider cart, Black Cube phono stage, Modwright 9.0 SE preamp, modded Ming Da 805 SET amp, Ellis 1801b speakers. I listen almost exclusively to vinyl.
Seeing the discussion thread I did want to provide some initial impressions (which may change when the main amp comes back...).
Summary: the Grover Huffman RCA IC is spectacular. I have never seen an IC so capable on bass, mids, and the high end. The high end extension, air, and detail may be the best I have heard - definitely on my system, and perhaps among the many systems I have heard. The bass is tremendous: clear, powerful, rich, dymanic. I can see that with the notable high frequency detail, there is perhaps the potential for the cable to seem light in this mids; but after careful listening, for my system, I have found that the mids are not recessed at all. I am simply not used to hearing as much high frequency information - it is not bright, or our of balance on my system, and really improves the sense of space associated with good recordings. Also, it has found better balance with more playing time.
I agree fully with bixby on the pro's: quiet, dynamic, great low end, tremendous sense of space. I disagree a bit on the concerns: I don't think the mids are recessed, as I said above I am just not used to hearing as much high end detail as the cable conveys. I listened extensively to Duke Ellington's records and found the upper midrange brass to be very good - both rich and intense (depending on playing style). The cymbals are crystal clear, and ranged from delicate to crashing, but very present and sufficiently weighty. As for transients, I hear amazing high frequency speed and clarity. I did hear more fingerboard mechanical sound on guitar work, but not unrealistically so. Again, the abilty to convey those high frequency sounds effectively is the reason I hear them more...
Other cables I swapped in that were in the same price range as the Grover's immediately resulted in less bass weight, and the loss of the almost unconstrained high end. After a several songs I went back to Grover's cable; because it felt like the other cables were "filtered". I tried some more expensive cables, and found them very similar to Grover's cable, but, Grover had the edge on high frequency extension.
My concerns were:
With the improved clarity and presence of the high frequency information, I felt that - relatively - the mids seemed to recede a small bit (emphasis on small). But I found that as the cable broke in further, this effect seemed to dissipate. It reminded me of another high end cable I use that seemed to take forever to break in; the cable just kept getting better and better and the balance continued to improve, for 200+ hours. This is what I am hearing from the Grover IC's. Also, I noted some distinct congestion in mids and high frequency information during the first 40 hours or so of playing, but this quickly disappeared completely. Last, but not least: I purchased two pairs of the RCA's and initially used one for phono to preamp, and one from preamp to power amp. As someone noted previously, this did seem to tip up the high end. I removed the phono to preamp cable and re-installed my favorite, keeping the Grover preamp to power amp cable in place, and found a better balance. Perhaps with more break in time this effect would subsided, as I am seeing in the remaining cable... I can understand why those with digital source systems might find this cable too bright or edgy; its high frequency resolution could illuminate many of the alleged issues associated with red book CD playback.
Overall, I am very favorably impressed with this cable. I will update my report when my newly modded Hurricanes come back.
Grover, thank you for the fantastic interconnects !
Bill C
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There seems to be two diverse views of the new Grover S Graphite version cables:
1. Too bright
2. Just right
Have tried one pair of cable between my DAC and integrated amplifier, I have to say that the cables in my system are just right.
First, a little background on my system:
Laptop > Z-Sleeved USB cable > HagUSB USB-SPDIF convertor > DH Labs D-75 cable with Eichmann RCAs > Bel Canto DAC 2 > Grover S Graphite RCA > Hypex UCD400AD integrated amp with shunt resistor passive volume control, fully wired with DH Labs solid core silver wiring for all signal cables > Shunyata Andromeda speaker cables > Acoustic Zen Adagios slanted baffle version.
Power cables:
Laptop - Van Den Hul Mainsstream
DAC - Audience Powerchord
Amp - Silver Audio Wattmaster
Interconnect that I have previously tried are as follows:
Van Den Hul The Second - Excellent low end extension, soft highs, smeared midrange. The smearing seems to occur in the upper midrange, such that female voices and higher registers of the piano sound congested and glary. At the same time, the highs seem a little muted compared to the other cables, but on its own, sounds quite good. The background is really black, and sound literally pops out of the blackness. Macrodynamics, meaning large scale explosions of drums have less impact, suggesting that this cable excels at microdynamics but is macrodynamically challenged. I would have been happy with this cable but for the upper midrange glare which leads to listening fatigue.
Acrolink A2200 Mk II - The midrange on this cable seems recessed, and dynamics are a bit challenged, with drums having less impact than other cables. The music is just less exciting to listen to, with instruments and vocals sounding laid back and soft. I guess some people may prefer this softness for easy listening but this sound bores me. The bass on this cable also sounds slightly rounded, with less leading edge impact, resulting in what I term "soft" bass.
Grover S 1st iteration black - This cable is bright and edgy in my system, with a tipped up tonality.
Grover S 2nd iteration black - This cable was much nicer than the 1st version, with toned down highs, great tonality and excellent performance from midrange down. However, I was getting some midrange harshness that resulted in listening fatigue.
Grover S Graphite - These cables are the best I have heard so far. While I know a lot of other users have experienced a hot treble, I found that my treble has never been smoother, even fresh out of the box. I am now able to listen to non-audiophile CDs without cringing in anticipation of harshness or glare. It is still not close to a live performance where you feel 100% relaxed even when the volume is high, but I'm guessing that my other components may not be up to the standard in that regard. I'm planning to get some tubes into my system eventually, but currently financial constraints abound due to my newborn. The highs of this cable are as Grover said, perfect.
One my reference songs is "What A Girl Wants" by Christina Aguilera. This song is great for testing systems in my opinion because it is recorded a bit hot as are all pop CDs, it tests for correct left and right channels orientation as the first 10 seconds are mono left, then mono right only, and it has a triangle being struck during these first 10 seconds. I noticed that the triangle sounds very different depending on the quality of the system and the cables. The best rendition of this triangle was on a dealer demo system featuring Dynaudio Temptations, Plinius CDP and amps. The triangle on that system sounded rich, yet extended with no fatigue factor. On my system with the Grover Graphites, this triangle was even more extended, but not as rich, though I believe that is a system wide disadvantage rather than a sin of the Grover cable. Bear in mind the Dynaudio speakers alone costs more than my entire setup. The bass beats which provide the foundation for the rest of the song are very strong, indicating rich midbass but still it does not overpower the song. The Christina's vocal tonality sounds just right without the tipped up steely tone that I hear with the other cables. Here my system outperforms the Dynaudio dealer demo as that system was much brighter.
Another favourite reference CD of mine are the Mozart Piano concertos by Ingrid Haebler. Some of the tracks have a slight midrange glare that show up any deficiencies in cables. With Grover S Graphites, the piano concertos sound sublime, and most important, without fatigue inducing glare. The mid to lower registers of the piano are also rich in tonality, compared with the thinner version I hear with all the other cables.
My bass reference CD is the JB Project by Brian Bromberg. Track 8 - 'Brombo' has a really fast paced drumming session that is a sonic sight to behold. The Grover S Graphites allow the transients on this track to develop fully and sound really realistic, while providing a strong low frequency foundation to rock the house.
I found that with all my CDs, audiophile or pop, I was able to listen at a louder volume before fatigue sets in, indicating that distortion in my system has been reduced. This reduction in distortion does not come at the expense of resolution.
IME, Grover's constant tweaking has allowed him to incorporate user feedback to produce what I believe are amongst the finest interconnects available, price notwithstanding. With the Grover S Graphites in my system, I now consider my interconnects to be the strongest link in the chain, and will focus upgrading efforts on other areas.
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Nice writeup Brandon.
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I'll echo what Rich said -- nice posts.
I have to say that I'm starting to come to the same conclusions myself.
Things are really coming together here and the problem of recessed mids in my system has definitely been cured. In fact, vocals are clean as they've ever been, and then some. The high end has smoothed out quite a bit, and any raspy edges that remain are the same ones that have always been there -- and that's the multiplayer's fault, and that won't go away until it gets modded.
Overall, my system just seems to be getting better on an almost daily basis, and considering that the tubes and capacitors in my amp are still a very long way from being fully seasoned, and system setup is far from optimal at this point, well, I guess I'll just be that much more pleased when it all comes together.
Thanks for the thorough summary of your experiences. Oh, and welcome!
-- Jim
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how does the grover s graphite compare to the last white version?
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I haven't been able to put many hours on the graphite's as I currently have a house guest, but they continue to sound excellent, especially considering I am breaking in the SP Tech 2.1's. The resolution and lack of grain is much appreciated.
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It's good to hear the comments now a week later that the charcoals are sounding better with more break in. I have to admit after the first night of playing soft music I listened to normal stuff the next day or so and it was a little much for me in the top end. It was clear and grain free, but just overhwleming treble detail that distracted from the mids and overall listening experience. When I switched back to white to take a break I felt a relief, but also a sadness that the extreme treble extension was also gone. I missed it. I had about 10-15 hours max on it then, so based on your experiences here it was likely just not broken in enough yet. In the past with whites and black versions I never noticed a big change during break in so I assumed it was getting close and Tony's and others' opinions about hot treble might be affecting me to. I am excited to think that they will smooth out and I can get that treble clarity back. Back on the stove they go. Soon the altmann DAC will be here and I can eliminate the SB as a potential source of the high end glare. Dr Connelly, and RichardS how are you guys liking your grover digital ICs? I'm in the market - I know Shane has some good ones on the block too.
snavysealssg Brandon, you bought in the first GB, did you get yours upgraded to the latest "charcoal" spec? How'd that work out? I have three pair of whites still, but I am growing attached to them, not sure I can send them in for bionic makeover... hehe
Thanks,
Rich
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Guys, I'm so pleased. The wonderful sounds I hear from these cables others hear also. I would like to clarify the Grover S line level cables are not to be used for turntable to phono amp. They are only designed to be used for line level applications. They indeed will be bright with this application. I have developed a very special extremely small signal cable for phono applications. It incorporates a very special carbon nickel shield that interferes minimally with the .5 to 5 millivolt signal. I sincerely believe it's the finest phono cable available.
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Rich,
I bought a SPDIF cable in the first GB, not the line level interconnects. My line level interconnects were purchased directly from Grover (WITHOUT the tantalising Audionervosa discount!!!) late last year, which were then progressively upgraded by the man himself.
IME, my 1.5m DH Labs D-75 terminated with Eichmann Copper RCAs outperforms the Grover SPDIF interconnect. While the Grovers give a beguiling smoothness to the midrange, I get the sense that there is some minor smearing of the midrange which is not present in the DH Labs cable. In my system, that leads to some perceived roughness in the upper midrange as well as some softness to the bass. I don't think its a burn-in issue as the cables have been in use for the past few months. For now, I have gone back to using the DH Labs cable, which give the best results in my system. I wonder if Grover is also making improvements to the SPDIF cable. All the attention seems to be focused on his line level interconnects and speaker cables.
I must add that of all the people I have dealt with in the audio business, Grover strikes me as someone who genuinely cares about how users enjoy his products. I believe for him, its not about the money. For the price he charges, Grover must make his money some other way while the cable business is more of a hobby, sharing the fruits of his vision with the masses (us!)
Thanks Grover!
It's good to hear the comments now a week later that the charcoals are sounding better with more break in. I have to admit after the first night of playing soft music I listened to normal stuff the next day or so and it was a little much for me in the top end. It was clear and grain free, but just overhwleming treble detail that distracted from the mids and overall listening experience. When I switched back to white to take a break I felt a relief, but also a sadness that the extreme treble extension was also gone. I missed it. I had about 10-15 hours max on it then, so based on your experiences here it was likely just not broken in enough yet. In the past with whites and black versions I never noticed a big change during break in so I assumed it was getting close and Tony's and others' opinions about hot treble might be affecting me to. I am excited to think that they will smooth out and I can get that treble clarity back. Back on the stove they go. Soon the altmann DAC will be here and I can eliminate the SB as a potential source of the high end glare. Dr Connelly, and RichardS how are you guys liking your grover digital ICs? I'm in the market - I know Shane has some good ones on the block too.
snavysealssg Brandon, you bought in the first GB, did you get yours upgraded to the latest "charcoal" spec? How'd that work out? I have three pair of whites still, but I am growing attached to them, not sure I can send them in for bionic makeover... hehe
Thanks,
Rich
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Grover or Rich. I guess it's time for me to send mine in. Can you pm me a mailing address? Thanks
Shep
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Here you go, shep.
http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=440.msg4264#msg4264
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I have had a chance to listen to my Grover S xlrs further and have confirmed some of my first impressions. First off I must say this is only one man's opinion and it is with my ears and my system. I feel this has to be reiterated here since others will undoubtedly hear something different in their system and with their ears. The Grovers are a good cable and do represent a decent value in today's cable market. I am glad to have had the opporutnity to try them.
Now with that out of the way, I have to say my ears and system are disappointed. The Grovers do lots of things well, but there are a few things that seem missing in my system. I cannot get a total handle on it, but my impression is that the highs and mids seem to be missing a tone unique to instruments in those spectra.
For example, the guitar strings on the self titled Nickle Creek cd seem to have good fret sounds but lack the right midrange body and tone. It is like the sustain of a strings vibration is cut short in one part of the frequency range. Also on this CD the violin seems to be missing that same part. No complaints about the bass part of the spectrum. Same issues on my Chieftains CD.
On a Patricia Barber CD for example the cymbals lack the brassy sound I know is there. The tick of a cymbal strike is there along with some part of the high frequencies but the tone again or body is lacking. This same effect is what I also noticed on piano. On my African Magic cd by Abdullah Ibraham (Dollar Brand to some) the piano is really affected. Good lower sustain but not in the upper mids, they seem MIA.
On the Sting CD, I immediately noticed his typical nasal pitch became even more so. What really was disconcerting was the lack of hall ambience and left to right coverage when background singers came in. I had noticed that on a particular cut the spatial effects I used to fall into was missing. Kind of like my first impression of something in the mids being recessed.
Well I have rambled enough, the Grovers go in the classified area at AN first so if anyone would like to get a pair of minty fresh Grover XLRs, you can still get the group discount.
Now comes the hard part, what to get next. Anyone have a set of Pulsars in XLR they would like to trade for an RCA set? Any suggestions on what to try next are appreciated. I am inclined to go the cccc / ohno copper route since I like my Luminous on my upper connections of my speakers.
cheers
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JPS SC3 is $1k/meter for SC3 RCAs. Art Dudley's recent "hyperbolated" review (http://www.stereophile.com/cables/407jps/index.html) echos my experience. Audition with caution, you will want them.
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Interesting to read the different impressions and the unique system configurations.
I think, like any component that does so many things well, that it comes down to synergy and personal preference.
I have not had as much chance to listen recently and have had some other cables sent to me to try out also so taking a break and then going back to listen to the Grovers to compare will be interesting.
I would say that I am certainly pleased overall and feel they are an extremely good value.
I appreciate that this forum and the Group Buy provided the impetus to try them out.
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Well,, I've got mine "burned in",I hope,,I'm not sure that I can add much,but for me,the detail,especially in the mids and highs are very good.I've added some things to my system,such as a tt and actually moved things a bit from one room to the other,so I have to rely on other ears on ocassion. With that said,and in summation, slightly to the bright side of nuetral.I,m NOT disappointed at all and would highly reccommend them.
I just re-read my post,,,,I hope this makes sense to someone,thanks for the opportunity to obtain these cables,they won't be going anywhere,anytime. :D
BTW--anyone ever try/have his phono cables?
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I would definitely like to try the phono cables myself, but first I have to find out whether he builds them with right angle DIN connectors, and what the diameter and stiffness is like. My new TT has a separate floating suspension for the armboard, and stiff cables will not work well with that.
I have a set of Van Den Hul phono cables now, that probably could use new, low mass RCAs, so the Grovers would have to be a step up from this to be worth my time.
-- Jim
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Dangerbird, are yours the Graphites that you got in the group buy, or did you upgrade them to the shielded black? I'm glad you like them.
I'm still using my 2 pair graphites between sources and amp. They have a lot of hours on them now. Still love them. The highs never bothered me after about 25 hours. They are holding up well under the Altmann amp's microscope. Detailed and full frequency, balanced and very "musical." I forget all about cables now. Can't hear anything standing out.
Thanks
Rich
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I would definitely like to try the phono cables myself, but first I have to find out whether he builds them with right angle DIN connectors, and what the diameter and stiffness is like. My new TT has a separate floating suspension for the armboard, and stiff cables will not work well with that.
I have a set of Van Den Hul phono cables now, that probably could use new, low mass RCAs, so the Grovers would have to be a step up from this to be worth my time.
-- Jim
They well might be. The VDH are no slouches. Why not try changing the RCAs to Bullet RCA or Audio note. You may be quite surprised.
rollo
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Probably silver bullets is what I'll use. I just have to figure out if these are the VDH carbon conductor cables -- in which case, I'm not going to touch them.
-- Jim
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Dangerbird, are yours the Graphites that you got in the group buy, or did you upgrade them to the shielded black? I'm glad you like them.
I'm still using my 2 pair graphites between sources and amp. They have a lot of hours on them now. Still love them. The highs never bothered me after about 25 hours. They are holding up well under the Altmann amp's microscope. Detailed and full frequency, balanced and very "musical." I forget all about cables now. Can't hear anything standing out.
Thanks
Rich
Mine are the "graphite" version. I'm ordering his phono cables as we speak. I'll keep ya"ll posted. :D
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Awesome! I'm glad they evened out for you.
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SC update: For those who have found that the Grover S IC's achieved better harmonic balance with longer burnin, and are happy with the high end extension, I have only one thing to say: please try the SC cables!! I probably have about 50+ hours on them now, and they definitely sound better than the S cables (to my ears, of course). Midrange is cleaner, clearer, and the high end extension and killer bass from the S cables remains. The cables seem more musical, mostly because I hear more music (the background is quieter, and notes seem to have more audible longevity. I think due to a quieter presentation.)
I have to say that I was a bit stunned at bixby's comment that spatial clues were missing. I hear so much high end extension capacity in the S and SC cables that the musical "setting" jumped out at me more than ever before. I understand the relative recessing of midrange, and tone issues (those went away for me with long burnin), but the high end on these cables provide me more spatial information than I have ever heard before (with some definite edginess in the beginning - fortunately the S and SC cables both settled down nicely over time). Something sounds out of whack in bixby's situation - maybe a defect in the cables? Maybe a poor design for the balanced cables? Hard to say, but I am also using an analog front end and all tube amplification so we might be looking in very different windows.
I urge all who like the S cables try the SC cables. If you don't like them more than the S cables, I am sure Grover has a big pile of S cables available to send back... :) I listen to a lot of music with vocals (M. Peyroux right now, and that husky voice is ALL there!) and the accuracy is just stunning. Jacintha and Holly Cole sound "in the room", and slight shifts away from the mike are easily audible.
So try the SCs if you like the S ICs, and if you were a bit disappointed by the S, try the SC too (there is a notable difference). :rofl:
(System info: Benz Glider cartridge, Rega 25 table, Wright Sound Co phono stage, ModWright 9.0SE preamp, modded ASL Hurricanes, to Ellis 1801b's [this month, with Timepiece Mini's arriving soon, I hope].
I think Grover hit a home run with the SC's, and I still hear the cables evolving. (Too bad he kept me waiting till the 9th inning. :lol:)
Bill C
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FYI, when I wrote to Grover earlier this week, he said that he recently had some computer problems and that if you want a fast turn-around time, wait a couple of weeks before sending them in.
-- Jim
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Just bit the bullet for the upgrade from the 2nd Group Buy (graphite) ICs to the newest iteration. Will post impressions after the cables arrive and are burnt in.
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I am wondering if anyone has done an A to B comparion of the new SCs versus the Graphite Edition? Maybe another way to ask is if you upgraded from the graphites to the SCs what did you not enjoy about the Graphites? Do you feel the sound is improved with the SCs?
Thanks,
Ken
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Well, Ken, that's an unfair question... yes, I did directly compare the S with the SC but there was nothing wrong with the S version -- just me in search of a life I suspect. Oh, and yeah, I was a bit curious.
The 'S' graphite version (or the all white XLR pair I have) are very good in my system. A wonderful sense of detail, definition and harmonic decay - moreso than any other ICs I've tried save for perhaps JPS SC2 ICs (which are a whole lot more $$). I could have easily settled on the 'S's but, noooo, Grover just had to create something better.
So I asked for an RCA and XLR pair of SCs to compare to my 'S's. I posted something earlier here describing what I heard. The SC seemed more relaxed and refined than the S... right from the start. Burn in only improved from there. The harmonic decay and sense of venue are truely exceptional - but that was true with the 'S' as well. Now, I wouldn't call them warmer but perhaps a bit less edgy in the transient response department. IMHO, they are one more step in the right direction.
Unfortunately, due to a very stupid incident on my part (see http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=718.0 (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=718.0)), I suddenly became a bit financially challenged so I sent the SCs back to Grover. I'm bettin' I'm gonna regret that...
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Well, Ken, that's an unfair question... yes, I did directly compare the S with the SC but there was nothing wrong with the S version -- just me in search of a life I suspect. Oh, and yeah, I was a bit curious.
The 'S' graphite version (or the all white XLR pair I have) are very good in my system. A wonderful sense of detail, definition and harmonic decay - moreso than any other ICs I've tried save for perhaps JPS SC2 ICs (which are a whole lot more $$). I could have easily settled on the 'S's but, noooo, Grover just had to create something better.
So I asked for an RCA and XLR pair of SCs to compare to my 'S's. I posted something earlier here describing what I heard. The SC seemed more relaxed and refined than the S... right from the start. Burn in only improved from there. The harmonic decay and sense of venue are truely exceptional - but that was true with the 'S' as well. Now, I wouldn't call them warmer but perhaps a bit less edgy in the transient response department. IMHO, they are one more step in the right direction.
Unfortunately, due to a very stupid incident on my part (see http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=718.0 (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=718.0)), I suddenly became a bit financially challenged so I sent the SCs back to Grover. I'm bettin' I'm gonna regret that...
Mike:
I am just trying to get my ears and wallet in sync. I have a price from Grover to upgrade the Graphites to the new shielded cables and I just purchased a pair of VH Audio Pulsars from a gentleman to evaluate. My system is starting to mellow-out with the recent addition of HT Pro 9 SCs to replace the Realities and the addition of a pair of Amperex Bugle Boys in place of the JJ Teslers in the Candela.
I am confident an evaluation of the Pulsars in my system between the S3 and Candela will clarify the decision making process for me.
Sorry you felt it was an unfair question. Have you received word about the repairs?
Good Luck,
Ken
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Sorry you felt it was an unfair question. I just hate to spend money for the latest just because it happens to be the latest!
Ken
Oops... Ken -- not an unfair question at all -- I was just being a bit too flippant... sorry. (gotta learn to use these smileys more)... I asked Grover to send me the SC mostly because I was quite curious and because I was quite impressed with the 'S' cables. Upgrading just because we can is a known symptom of this cursed audionervosa :rofl:
I do hope the Pulsars work for you (and thank you for calling me a gentleman ;-). I've used them for a number of years. I think you'll find them the yin to the Grover's yang (or is it the other way around?). If nothing else, the Pulsars are a great tool in your arsenal because it does give you a way to warm up an otherwise overly precise/detailed presentation.
P.S... spending a lot of time comparing wire is a sure way to feed the nervosa side of things... You've got a great system so at some point, just sit back, relax and enjoy the tunes (gotta learn that lesson, gotta learn that lesson...)
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Nice info guys. Thanks. I'm curious about the SCs now too. Ken, what is the price to upgrade a pair of 1M RCA "S" to "SC"? I know Grover posted it here a while back, but I'm lazy to look for it!
Ken what do you think of the Amperex? Very different huh?? Maybe post your impressions in the tube section sometime. I would really enjoy that, if you get a chance ;) Thanks!!
Rich
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Grover emailed me that the cost to upgrade a pair of 1.0 meter RCA interconnects from the S (graphite) version to the SC version was $75. Just FYI, the cost for a 1.5 meter upgrade was $85. I enclosed a few extra dollars for shipping because it was not clear that was included in his quote...
As for comparison of the S to SC RCA interconnects, I was attempting to convey that in my post yesterday regarding my preliminary impressions of moving from the S (graphite) cables to the SC cables:
http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=597.msg7013#msg7013
Ken, perhaps I was not describing some aspect you were interested in. If you could elaborate on which aspect of the "sound" you would like me to expand on I would be happy to do so...
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Grover emailed me that the cost to upgrade a pair of 1.0 meter RCA interconnects from the S (graphite) version to the SC version was $75. Just FYI, the cost for a 1.5 meter upgrade was $85. I enclosed a few extra dollars for shipping because it was not clear that was included in his quote...
As for comparison of the S to SC RCA interconnects, I was attempting to convey that in my post yesterday regarding my preliminary impressions of moving from the S (graphite) cables to the SC cables:
http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=597.msg7013#msg7013
Ken, perhaps I was not describing some aspect you were interested in. If you could elaborate on which aspect of the "sound" you would like me to expand on I would be happy to do so...
Bill:
My bad! :duh I, for some reason, have always referred to Grover's Graphite ICs as Graphites not the "S." I thought people that were referring to the "S" were meaning the White Edition that were supplied, I believe, in the first Group Buy.
Thank you for correcting me and for the review! :D
Ken
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Rich and all,
Just FYI, the prices Grover gave to me a couple of days ago were $75 for a 1 meter and $90 for a 1.5 meter. He didn't mention anything about postage, but said I could pay either with a check or with paypal.
And again, he said that if people want to minimize downtime, to send the cables in about 2 weeks from now when his backlog is a little less.
-- Jim
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Thanks!! :)
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Ken,
Given the many versions, iterations, and upgrades, it is easy to see how my comments could have been unclear.
I should have used the "street" name (graphites) because for exacly the reason you describe; the first group buy also involved a white version of the S interconnect. :duh
My apologies. And the funny part is that I was trying hard to be clear. Grover's cables need version numbers, which would probably look like the version numbers on Windows... :shock:
Bill C
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Just bit the bullet for the upgrade from the 2nd Group Buy (graphite) ICs to the newest iteration. Will post impressions after the cables arrive and are burnt in.
I concur with other posters regarding the positive attributes of the SC ICs, so I don't feel the need to repeat what's already been said. Nice job, Grover! :beer:
I also note that although I received the pair of ICs from Grover on this past Friday, by using the IsoTek System Enhancer CD (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/isotek/cd.html) 24/7 for 1.5 days, the ICs now sound fully burned in. I feel that's a wicked nice time savings, and for me made it well worth the cost of buying the IsoTek CD.
YMMV. Happy listening!