Deciding whether to keep vinyl in my main system

[Carlman]

I know, blasphemy, how could I get rid of vinyl?  Well, it could help fund subs, more acoustic controls for the room, or whatever.

This whole post is just me writing down my thoughts to justify getting rid of vinyl.  I like it but not enough to sacrifice (sunk) costs, half of which I could get back.  I've sat on this decision for years. 

Not sure how much it's worth, a Pro-Ject RM6 w/ speedbox and an EE Phono stage.  But, let's say a grand.

Then there are all the records, about 3 milk crates worth, a few, well maybe 'some' with great sentimental attachment.  Probably worth $1-$2 each on average. 

The last time I listened to records was ... a few months ago  and before that a year... It's fun to listen to vinyl for the sake of 'being able to'... and it does sound good sometimes... on the few records that I like, are recorded properly, pressed properly, and cost under $15. (my album budget)

I have so much more music (that I like) to choose from on my hard drive and more that is recorded well.  My tastes tend to go with new stuff, from new artists.  I don't listen to classical or jazz that much.  I appreciate it and like it, just not my main thing.  Most of my good vinyl is jazz.  BTW, Sufjan Steven's "Illinoise" is an EXCELLENT recording and pressing.  It's one in a 1,000 for modern vinyl pressings.

I've gotten out of vinyl before because it's a lot of work for very little reward.  I have 2 DAC's that I feel give me everything a record ever could (other than the esoteric task of spinning a record and novel enjoyment of seeing the needle drop and knowing the music is coming from 'right there, right now'...)  For the $ invested (IC's, records, and gear) and time setting it up, I want more of a reward.

I have very little nostalgia around vinyl.  By my late teens/early 20's cd's were coming out... right when I started getting into music.  CD's have been out for over 20 years.  DAC technology has finally gotten good enough (for me) to trump vinyl in sound quality (in my system).

I have an old cheap turntable also that works.  I have an integrated amp with a phono input in another system.  So I could spin some old favorites there.

How much is it worth to keep the ability to hear vinyl playback in my main system?  I get so much out of my system with digital playback.  I've preferred digital playback for the past year or 2... and with the latest DAC, it's even more clear.  I listen to vinyl less than 1% of the time.

I guess it's time to move on... use the old table for a few records for fun times... I just don't want to sell the 'big rig' and regret it like I did last time.. I don't want to have to 'correct the mistake'... that's expensive.

Thanks for letting me spill my thoughts on this...

[StereoNut]

Carl - I think you answered your own question right here...

Quote: "I listen to vinyl less than 1% of the time."

Just sayin'
SN

[BobM]

Viny can be hugely satisfying, but you're correct in saying that you have to sink a big sum into it in terms of $, time, effort, record cleaning, setup pickiness, etc. Digital is simpler and easier, especially if you are running a music server.

I like vinyl because the sound is definitely better than CD's, but there are often times when I don't want to wait for the tubes to heat up or to play that finicky game. I pop in a CD and just enjoy.

I personally think that vinyl is part of the whole "audiophile experience", for me at least, and that means dealing with the outlying issues. Just like a car enthusiast has to get his hands greasy from time to time; the hobby is not all about just driving the car.

[Carlman]

I agree, Bob... I (somewhat) like the 'ritual' aspect.  And up until recently the sound has always been the icing on the cake. 

Ah the ritual at the altar of sound... The ritual has meaning and importance when the outcome is a glorious resurrection of a performance. 

Vinyl is a spiritual existence... but now I listen to my records and then I listen to the same thing off the computer and there's just more emotional connection for me in the actual listening experience.  So, now I have this ritual for a dozen or so records I actually like.. and the sound is good, and has the organic wholeness of analog... but the super fine detail is a bit hazed or glossed-over in comparison. 

The DAC Rich built me has opened up a bit since our 'DAC-off' and is even lovelier than before.  It's as musical as the Scott Nixon but with more extension on both ends.  I never leave my sound room wishing for more from the system... maybe a little more from the room acoustics, though.  I get chills, have jaw-dropping moments, and just enjoy the emotion of the performance.

With vinyl, I can get into it for 22 minutes or so.  Unless it's a 45.. then I get a little more excersize.    However, I still don't get as immersed.  The best way I can describe is that it sounds like someone else's thing, not mine.  That's a tough realization for me for whatever reason.

[tmazz]

Let me jump in here at one of the "vinyl guys". I love my analog rig, but in the end it's still all about the music. The playback technology is not an objective in and of itself, but rather a means to an end.

Let's face it, vinyl is a pain in the @ss. but as of yet I have not been able to find a digital playback system that sounds as good as my analog rig (Although recently things have gotten close. The EE DAC plus was the first piece of digital gear that I have had in the system that made me listen to find the differences between the analog and digital versions of the 30th Anniv copy of DSOTM. The differences were there, but they didn't hit you in the face, you had to look for them.) If I could find a digital playback system that sounded as good and gave me the same emotional connection to the music that I get from vinyl, the turntable would be out of here in a heartbeat, but so far I haven't, so I just keep putting up with  the hassles of analog, because IMO the SQ is worth it. Of course in my case I also have an extensive collection of analog software, so another concern would be how many of the albums in my vinyl collection are important to me would be available on my digital format of choice.

Carl, it sound like you have built a digital front end that really floats your boat and you don't have a large software conversion problem so I think you really can take the leap. What you need to do is just focus on the following question, would I get more enjoyment out of listening to records with my system as is or my digital library with the improvements that could be financed by selling off the analog system. Focus on what is right for you in your room given what youlisten to and ignore all the outside interference.

Good luck with your latest quest.

[rollo]

Carlman you alluded to emotional impact. That in a nutshell is what it is all about. Wether vinyl or digital.
  Glad to hear you are OK with your digital. For most the digital playback system is just not up with snuff with the sonics of their analog. The   budget DA Cs out there are VG however the better DA Cs at $3500 and up [ or custom] are IMO the ticket.
  For example the AMR DAC and PDX DAC  are prime examples of my point. After listening to both and then the TT I came away puzzled. With well engineered recordings the LP was different compared to the CD. The thing is though one had to concentrate to hear the difference.
   That is too much work. Putting a stress on the listener. Who wants that ?
   For me it is either a vinyl night or a CD night. If I'm a chilling mood it is CD. Ya just sit there and enjoy, no getting up every 18 minutes or so. Just chilling and grilling.
   Since you have a budget for LPs then the reissues are out for you. A shame since they really do sound great much better than the originals.
   Hey look at it like a bottle of expensive fine Wine. Not for everyday but available when need be.
    Stick with your emotions, no one can advise you on that. Call Shane and listen to the AMR.

charles

[Carlman]

I have listened extensively to the AMR (thanks to Shane).  It is indeed a game changer for what people thought was a possibility for digital playback.
I liked the Zodiac too.  The DAC Rich made me is up there with them.  Digital has definitely gotten better recently.  Glad I believed enough to try something new.

[machinehead]

Digital is where its at!
a) sit on couch
b) remote control Everything!
c) beelions and bee lions of albums
d) ass grows
e) eventually ass becomes part of the couch
f) a crane must excavate you from house
g) surgery on ass to remove couch
h) buy new couch
i) repeat wonderfulness!

[jsaliga]

Interesting...since I decided recently to completely dump digital.  Mine is going to be a vinyl only setup.

It really isn't hard to see what is driving these decisions.  Carl listens mostly to digital and I listen mostly to vinyl.  If 2% of my listening is digital music I don't feel like I am really giving anything up by letting it go.  It also didn't make sense to spend ever increasing sums of money on digital music while it occupies an ever decreasing amount of the finite time I have available for listening to music.  I would rather turn those funds around and spend the money on vinyl.

--Jerome

[bhobba]

Carlman you alluded to emotional impact. That in a nutshell is what it is all about. Wether vinyl or digital.

+1

A comparison was recently done at the NSW Audio Society here in Australia with vinyl and digital fed via a computer using a high quality DAC (a PDX - but I think any other quality DAC would have garnered similar reactions).  The person who did the comparison thought the digital murdered the vinyl as do I.  But guess what - it was 50-50 which the people at the demo preferred.

The bottom line here, like so much in audio, is its a personal preference sort of thing based on exactly what tricks each persons brain into saying this is real.

Thanks
Bill

[topround]

not really...you just have a better digital rig than vinyl.or your table is not working synergistically with the other components like the tonearm or step ups , etc..
Vinyl can be a pain the ass, but when it is pinned down it kills digital. Most have not heard it though.

I am lucky, I have a friend who is a vinyl guru, who really knows how to setup tables and arms and cartridges, having it setup perfectly really makes a big difference.

So great vinyl compared to great digital(lets say the DCS stack at 80K) still beats the digital, it is just the nature of the format, one day it will surpass vinyl...but it still has a long way to go..

look at all the turntables at the NY show, the good ones were just killing the digital playback used in the same system

but I will concede PC audio is just superior to cd players, the new USB dacs are getting so good.

But in the end vinyl versus digital is like tubes versus solid state, people will argue each way for ever, with each party sticking to their guns....at least I am!


Mike

[mfsoa]

Carl,
I agree with everything you said and find myself in much the same situation, with a ProJect TT too!  All of my albums are in sorry shape from my college days, and I just don't get around to using the vinyl much.

Does it sound better than my former EE dac?  Probably does. I think more different than better. But it is a pain. And noisy.

But maybe 80% of my listening now is to internet radio (talk about audiophile sacrilege!). With the small handful of  quality stations I've found, I have unlimited access to free, commercial-free music that I have never heard before. Can't beat that.

I could never imagine passing up the experience of musical discovery simply because it is on a medium that doesn't sound "the best". (and don't want to pay per album for the privilege)

But I still do want to have access to my TT, which is leading me down a difficult road - With so many of the dacs now featuring built-in volume controls, do I need a preamp anymore?  (And it hurts to ponder because my VAC pre is the jewel of my system!) Yet is it obsolete? Ouch.

OK, I gotta go turn in my nutcase audiophile card now. And be happier for it.

I guess I need to find a volume-controlled buffer with XLR outs to be fed by my phono pre, and switch the cables to it when I want to listen to the TT. Or pull the trigger on a Classe CP-800.

And sell the VAC   

 

[richidoo]

Nice one Mike..

You gotta follow where your music leads you. Content is more important than sound quality.

Vinyl is not better than digital.

[jsaliga]

You gotta follow where your music leads you.

That I can agree with.

Content is more important than sound quality.

I agree with that as well...in principle.  But in practice, for me at least, sound quality and content are equal in importance.  The issue of sound quality relates more to the way music is recorded, mixed, and mastered and has less to do with the digital/vinyl dichotomy.

While I won't pass up a recording because the SQ is not all that great, I do not fill my days listening to what I consider to be poor recordings.  Case in point: Leonard Bernstein/NPO 1950s recording of Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 4 on Columbia Masterworks.  The quality of the recording (on LP or CD) does not do the performance justice, and there are any number of recordings that are far more sonically engaging to my ears.  When I want to listen to a Tchaikovsky 4th, I will usually reach for the Pierre Monteux/BSO recording on a RCA Living Stereo LP.  While the performance is not as emotionally stirring as the Bernstein performance, it is very close.  The quality of the recording embarrasses the Columbia Masterworks LP, so the totality of the listening experience of the RCA LP is far more satisfying to my ears.  While I do occasionally listen to the Bernstein recording, I listen to it much less than I otherwise would had the quality of the recording been better.  Sound quality matters to me, and it matters at least as much as the quality of the content.   

Vinyl is not better than digital.

Of course it isn't; it is much better. 

--Jerome

[Carlman]

I like discovering new music that resonates with me, in a new way.  That alone is enough to keep me interested in listening to music.  When the system changes, everything old is new again... there is more information to be heard... Usually I look forward to hearing old songs with new resolution... but then sometimes I get distanced from the music because it's overly technical and I lose the gist of it. 

Vinyl has usually given me the overall presentation, not so technical and broken apart... more of a 'whole'.  That is the key difference I'm hearing with the Scott Nixon and my new DAC..  It's that 'wholeness' that makes the music work for me.  It's not a synergistic mis-match problem.  Other people hear my vinyl rig and think it's the bom-diggity. 

I greatly appreciate the insight and banter here.  I always learn something new with the folks here.  Thank you.

-C