Author Topic: What is the "ear's" sensitivity to frequency response changes?  (Read 8253 times)

Offline steve

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Re: What is the "ear's" sensitivity to frequency response changes?
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2012, 12:24:37 PM »
I agree, but the hardest thing to catch are those who claim to be scientists but who are marketers, have an agenda.

Cheers.
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Offline Carlman

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Re: What is the "ear's" sensitivity to frequency response changes?
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2012, 03:44:15 PM »
Steve, it's clear you're upset that there are scientists claiming to be marketers with an agenda.  Figure out why that makes you so upset and you'll be in better shape than berating the point here.

If you want to point to specific claims and examples because there is an overall industry scandal that effects us all, please do.

Otherwise, enjoy the comments made so far from folks that have yours (and all other audiophiles') best interests at heart.

-Carl
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline steve

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Re: What is the "ear's" sensitivity to frequency response changes?
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2012, 05:49:11 PM »
Steve, it's clear you're upset that there are scientists claiming to be marketers with an agenda.  Figure out why that makes you so upset and you'll be in better shape than berating the point here.

If you want to point to specific claims and examples because there is an overall industry scandal that effects us all, please do.
-Carl


The reason is that high end audio is continually being bashed. One always hears about the pet rockers being dishonest, but one rarely, if ever hears about the "engineers" being dishonest with science.

High end audio is on the decline, and besides other reasons such as high prices on our part, in part, because of these false attacks on us. It is/was pretty bad on AVS, Stereophile forums a little while ago. Even Jneutron got into the act on AVS.
Anyway, that means you and me gentlemen.

I thought my post on the first page was fairly specific. Attacking companies by playing the numbers, conflicts of interest etc. via attacks on manufacturers, seem to me to be good reason for concern. But no concern seems to exist. I mis-thought I guess.

My apologies gentlemen.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 05:59:55 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
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Offline richidoo

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Re: What is the "ear's" sensitivity to frequency response changes?
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2012, 08:26:58 PM »
It is good that it is erupting somewhere, the forums are the only place it can be exposed.  The audio press and mfgs have colluded for decades, ever since pop music turned to shit and public didn't need quality audio gear anymore, so they must lie to sell it now, and make it into more than it really is. A scientist is only as good as the motives of the person paying him. Witness global warming. GRAAAAAANTastic!   

Offline Barry (NJ)

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Offline rollo

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Re: What is the "ear's" sensitivity to frequency response changes?
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2012, 02:09:43 PM »
   Now that we are definitely off topic here goes. Today's business model like yesterdays needs change.
   As I have stated here numerous times one size does not fit all. The perception of the "dealer " is they are ripping you off and Hyping you into sales. Ever buy anything that was not hyped ? i doubt it.
   Unfortunately all the BS , marketing and the like to the educated consumer is just that. We have a unique situation in or hobby like food it is very subjective. When I hear abut a recipe and then read it I alter it to my taste buds.
   Granted in food as in our hobby there are certain practices that matter. Temperature, cooking time, the right pot etc are key to good meal. In audio clean power, room analysis and treatment are known and proven to help.
    The only way to determine if the audio product is what they say it is, well one must try it. Pet rocks need not apply ? maybe. I know from personal experience working with crystals on AC works. Little quartz pieces coated with mineral oil inside a black box. WTfF, lunacy, snakeoil and so on. Well until I tried them to me it was BS. Not now.
    How many times have we read "It is the best ...." Best to whom ? Again one size does not fit all. What is one mans cake is not anther's.
     If you go to a dealers or direct sale Manf. you will read hype. Why? To make interest. If one is foolish enough to part with their money before auditioning it without a return policy what can I say, other than good luck.
     I started my business for exactly that reason. Lets take the BSGT Qol unit as a perfect example. A new concept that claims to bring to as close to the live event. than ever before. Oh yeah ? What a statement.   If you visit the web site you may come away with hype and marketing phrases and just go away or you may not. The demo was intriguing to me  ordered one to evaluate for personal use. I liked what I heard got real excited about it as you all know. After a while  decided to apply for a dealership. My excitement now about anything as now a " dealer "  was construed as hype and marketing or agenda as well. Even though I'm known here as a member perception is the key. This is what I'm trying to change in our business model. The perception. A tough road as I found out the hard way. Most are conditioned with what a dealer is, perceived to be or are.  No matter how well intended or honest the dealer is until that rep gets around they are put in the dealer bin of opinion.
     Unfair bashing of products on the forums is another issue. If you have heard the product in your system feel free to offer your opinion no problem. However to call something snakeoil without hands on experience that hurts the Manf. Just look at any cable thread. There is always someone saying we are nuts wire is wire.  No one likes hype but if  one cannot see through advertising really get a life.
     If a dealer or Manf. offers home demo and  a return policy what is the problem ?  If they do not just stay away. They can hype all they want to gather interest and know that once it is heard either a sale or a return will happen. If they hype it and does not deliver they are gone.  That sounds very fair to me. As educated buyers one should pick out the hype and get to the facts.
    How do I know all of this ? Frankly I have called the kettle black myself a few times before, learned it  just was not the right thing to do. Everyone deserves the benefit of doubt  at first. The proof is in the pudding. THE PRODUCT.
    Can anyone name an industry that does not use marketing hype ?? An educated consumer is the best customer.



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Offline Werd

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Re: What is the "ear's" sensitivity to frequency response changes?
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2012, 12:37:19 PM »
An ear's sensitivity is close to 20khz. As you grow older it lowers. I am not sure how true that is though. I under stand that if you are in an audiologist booth higher frequencies begin to become unheard when tested.  But it makes me wonder if those tests are skewed and in the favor for just basic hearing assessment?

For eg.

If you sat in the testingbooth for a just a couple of tests and your threshold was in and around 20khz let say. 25khz wasnt detected. Ok but what if you sat in that booth for let's say a couple of hundred tests.

During that time the tester told you when the signal was coming in. Also the volume was slightly higher to accommodate. Would you be able to learn to hear a higher frequency than when you first started.

I think you can be taught to hear higher frequencies. The range of hearing can be expanded. It's just never done. This is what happens to music enthusiast who spend a lot of time in front of their system. they begin to hear frequencies that are generated but not nessecarily heard by the novice.

Just a guess stab at it but it explains why we can hear subtle differences in own system. We all become golden ears in our own home. It's not just all a con by marketers.
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Offline _Scotty_

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Re: What is the "ear's" sensitivity to frequency response changes?
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2012, 01:51:54 PM »
The last time I had my hearing tested the frequencies used were between 125Hz and 8kHz, with emphasis placed on the ability to understand speech. People frequently come to the audiologist when they realize that they can't hear what women are saying to them.
 Unfortunately the audiologist can't help with understanding the content
their of communication. People also wind up getting tested when they can't hear what their grandchildren are saying.

 It's fairly obvious that those who might be considered to be "golden eared" are using what they have between their ears in a superior fashion rather than the just raw physiological ability they were endowed with at birth. I would not say that you have trained yourself to hear frequencies that a novice can't perceive due to physiological limitations but rather you may have trained your brain to process what you hear in a way that elicits more information from the applied stimulus than is obvious to the untrained listener even though he has similar raw hearing abilities.
 Werd, if hearing loss could cured by training one to hear the frequncies that are now inaudible due to aging or over exposure to SPLs that have been show to cause hearing loss then no one would need to buy hearing aids.
 Unfortunately, hearing loss has a well documented physiological basis for its existance, nerve damage in particular is irreversible at this point in time.
Scotty
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 02:10:48 PM by _Scotty_ »

Offline steve

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Re: What is the "ear's" sensitivity to frequency response changes?
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2012, 07:00:48 PM »
I guess the point is, in deep testing, one can tell a frequency response deviation of .01db, or even less.

Cheers.
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers

Offline JLM

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Re: What is the "ear's" sensitivity to frequency response changes?
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2012, 05:42:14 PM »
OK, now that all my (1-12 year old) equipment is fully broken in (and sounds better) I'll offer it to anyone at only 20% more than MSRP.   :lol: