What is the "ear's" sensitivity to frequency response changes?

[steve]

There has recently been an attack on audiophile/music lover's contentions that sound does change with small changes in frequency response.

I was wondering if anyone wishes to discuss this attack for newbie's, or even veterans who might be confused on the issue? Is it worth it?

For instance, do different types/brand of capacitors sound different even though frequency response measurements are the same (using a sinewave).

If out of bounds, delete.

Cheers.

[_Scotty_]

This being a statement of anecdotal evidence from a demented audiophool who is prone to self delusion, I believe that I have heard the difference between different types of polymer film capacitors and I believe I have heard them change how they sound over about the first 100 hours of use. I also believe that I have heard electrolytic capacitors change how they sound when they are green and have never had voltage applied to them other than at the factory during the manufacturing process.
 I have also heard a change in the sound of Jensen 4 pole electrolytic capacitors when a component in which they are used as a power supply storage capacitor is turned off for a day or so and voltage is no longer applied to them. I believe that they take an amount of time equal to the time that elapsed while they were unpowered to come back to the sound they had when they were broken in and fully formed up. 
 Other than these completely unsubstantiated statements of belief I have nothing much else to say on the subject. I base my actions that are related to using these capacitors on my personal observations of their sonic behavior and I don't really care what others think of my beliefs.
Scotty

[BobM]

Scotty - a theme song for those like us

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28pF89eh4a8

[steve]

The attacks have huge implications in that no small variation will be allowed to sound different.

For example, "breakin" no longer exists. Different brand capacitors will not sound different, which they do.

I just hope all understand that the attacks are not based on science, but marketing tatics.

Cheers.

[_Scotty_]

I think some of the attacks are motivated by fear of the unknown or the unknowable.
A very large number of people can't tolerate ambiguity. Everything in the world must have a rational explanation for its existence in order for some people to feel secure, their world-view can't tolerate the alternative.
 It's the only explanation for the vituperation of their attacks on those who hold a different view of reality.
One foot in the Twilight Zone, Scotty

[steve]

I agree to some extent. However, a dozen or more high level engineers/scientists have been caught, some witnessed by a federal investigator, in unethical if not worse behaviour. Consider this.

On Stereophile's old forum, one of the "expert engineers" traveled some 5k miles round trip, helping his friend/company, and then attacked a competitor of his friend a few months later.

Another one attacked a manufacturer of coaxial ICs,  stating the ratio of outer shield to inner shield could be 1.1. He never explained further, and not surprisingly. The dielectric insulation would be thinner than a sheet of paper (.004"), and the capacitance for one meter would be 1650pf/meter. Anyone wish to have a .0016uf capacitor across the output of their preamplifier?  

At least two tests were altered (both included measurements) in order to discredit the tests, which conclusions supported subjectivists. In one test, the claim was that headphones were used when in actuality speakers were used. It was critical that speakers were used.  

The other falsified data/test and when caught changed the setup from stereo to mono, and when caught with his own words, proceeded to blame the measuring instrument. However, previously he claimed the meter was accurate. Later, on another forum, he claimed the instrument was again accurate.

Another claimed to have a 4.0 average and majored in engineering, and is actually quoted several times by another "expert" condemning audiophile's beliefs. However, it turns out he is a makeup artist in hollywood with no electronics backround. How do we know?

He did not understand Thevenin equivalent circuits and Kirchoff's current law, both first semester subjects that are required for the most basic circuits. For simplicity in understanding he claimed that with three wires connected in parallel, only two conducted current flow.

Another example is advice that if followed, would actually caused individuals to mess up their own systems, for corporate sales of course.

What I thought was quite revealing was that in all the cases mentioned, and more, not one of their colleagues posted against such unethical behaviour.

There are more examples but it appears their  predominant goal is about boosting corporate sales for themselves, their employers, or their friends.  

Cheers.

[tmazz]

Steve there are always going to be charlatans out there, especially in a business like this. If somebody is going to last in this hobby without losing their mind they have to learn to get past all the marketing hype, quasi-science, alleged hard proof and pure out and out BS and realize that there are only two measurement devices on the face of this earth that can provide any reliable information on a given product and they hang on the side of your own head.

I don't care what the reports, the reviews or anybody else says I evaluate every potential equipment purchase the same way. First I listen to the piece, if  I like what I hear I look at the price and ask myself is this amount of sound improvement worth that amount of dollars to me, If I think the improvement is worth the money I buy it, if not , I don't. It's that simple.

Now I am a degreed engineer. At work I need to understand how and why something works so the technology can be replicated and monetized. But when I come home and head down to the mancave I an a consumer. If something, in my opinion, provides a sonic improvement to my system I will enjoy it and quite frankly I don't care how or why it works, just that it does. If I understand what's going on under the hood, that's nice from an intellectual standpoint, but I certainly will not ignore a good sounding product because I can't explain or quantify what it is doing.

I have often been told that what I think I am hearing is a placebo effect. Well, my evaluation method covers that as well. If a product gives me an amount of placebo improvement that is in line with the price they change for it I would still willingly buy it because to me it doesn't matter how a product puts a smile on my face, just that it does.

Bottom line - my two golden rules for this hobby 1) trust and follow your ears and 2) build your system to please nobody but yourself.

[steve]

I know Tmazz. What is so sad is that these guys claim to be so righteous and honest (while we are fleecing from the public), when in fact, it is all marketing to them, and we find they are con artists just like the pet rockers.

It is playing the honest viewers as suckers. I hope they beware of these expert audio guys.

What a shame.

[rollo]

  To answer the topic question I just know or care to know. It may or may not.
  Hands on experience has proven to me that what I hear is all that matters. Subjective as we all know however our perception is the only way to know. With caps they change over time, why ? Again do not care to know.
  Look at global warming for instance. A new model based on misinformation. They faked the numbers. Scientists even cannot agree. Theory is one thing, reality another.
   Yup its a cruel world out there. I have heard systems measured to the hilt and frankly sounded like crap. The room another story. We have reliable proven data base facts that make a difference and actually work in practice.
   Placebo this is what I say. All we have are our two ears. Take your gear as an example. After all the measurements are good the end result is what does it sound like. Would you put out a Preamp without listening to it ? They may measure great and sound terrible. They may measure poorly but sound great. SET anyone ? LP ? 
   As Scotty alluded to there are just those types who need proof. If ya can't measure it it doesn't exist in their world.
    I say if you can hear it that is the cake.


charles


   

[steve]

Hi Rollo,

I completely agree with Scott's and your assessment, but my examples clearly show that marketing is also involved by the manufacturer's attacks on other manufacturers.

I guess this string is more for those who are newbies and those unfamiliar with the scene on Stereophile's old forum, AVS, and other forums.

Cheers and have a great week.

[tmazz]

Unfortunately this is a big catch 22. 

1) We hate the marketing  BS.
2) We need manufacturers to make the equipment we buy
3) To stay in business manufacturers need to sell enough equipment to be profitable
4) To sell enough equipment, they need to do marketing
5) Return to #1 and repeat. 

[steve]

Unfortunately this is a big catch 22. 

1) We hate the marketing  BS.
2) We need manufacturers to make the equipment we buy
3) To stay in business manufacturers need to sell enough equipment to be profitable
4) To sell enough equipment, they need to do marketing
5) Return to #1 and repeat. 

I think the main point to push is that there are con artists on both sides of the aisle. While the pet rockers are easy to spot, those posing as concerned "scientists" or "audio experts" are more difficult for the public to spot.

The old adage that the middle ground is usually the place to be seems appropriate.

Cheers.

[BobM]

There may indeed be con artists. There may be self-deluded people who believe them and even hear a difference when using their products. And you know what? If it makes them happy to buy magic pebbles and such, then I say who are we to dispute that happiness.

Of course, if the government steps in and says this is a scam and arrests the marketer then so be it. These self-deluded people can probably pick up those products that make them happy at a huge discount on the used market.

However, if you or I don't believe the hype, or don't hear a difference, then we don't have to buy it. That's voting with your wallet.

[richidoo]

I'm with you Bob.
Let's not blame the parasite for the vulnerability of the host.  Let nature do her perfect work, in teaching fools the hard way.

There are plenty of opportunities to avoid being ripped off in this hobby. Audio forum advice is the best way to avoid ripoffs and find extreme value. But you have to want to avoid ripoffs. Too many people like being the victim, so why should they not reap what they sow? 

It is easy to make electronics play flat enough to enjoy music.  But quality of timbre can still vary wildly inside a narrow FR tolerance.

[BobM]

Bring Back Tone Controls!!!!

Remember when equipment used to look like this?