Author Topic: DC coupling and low frequency response surprise  (Read 14683 times)

Offline steve

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DC coupling and low frequency response surprise
« on: June 30, 2007, 02:34:42 PM »
What I am about to discuss here, I have never seen mentioned by any other current audio manufacturer. I first became aware of the problem years ago when performing listening tests (involving multiple testing methods) on DC coupled components I had designed. I then got into theory and discovered the answer (can also model it on the computer).

At first glance, one would think the response of DC coupled circuits would be flat. DC coupling means the design is such that a coupling capacitor is not needed. Afterall, it is just a "straightwire". But one has to inspect another part of the circuit, the power supply.

So the answer is actually No, DC coupling is not flat; unless the DC supply comes from a battery, through a plate resistor (collector resistor) to the plate of the tube. Oh you won't see +3db at some low frequency, but it does rise enough to cause an instrument to sound too full, even affecting the cleanness, the "magic" of the midrange.

Usually starting low, at frquency X, the frequency response (fr) actually rises as the frequency is further lowered to Y, and then falls again as it approaches 0. The frequencies involved and the amplitude rise, however, are dependent upon the particular design. But the response can only approch zero rise, not actually be flat unless a battery is used in each stage for B+).

The resulting sound is that of more bass, and the bass sounding too full. This is especially evident with string bass. The more stages of DC coupling the more problematic of this condition.

I have a page up with this article at:
http://www.sasaudiolabs.com/theory12a.htm (copyrighted)

« Last Edit: July 21, 2007, 03:17:16 PM by steve »
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Offline richidoo

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Re: DC coupling and low frequency response
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2007, 06:35:04 PM »
Very interesting Steve. I followed the link, but it appears to be the review of 11A which I enjoyed reading yesterday ;) Maybe you have a better link? Thanks

Not being an engineer, I don't know what you mean by DC coupling, but would like to know.
Thanks Steve!!
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 06:37:09 PM by richidoo »

opnly bafld

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Re: DC coupling and low frequency response
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2007, 06:42:02 PM »

Offline richidoo

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Re: DC coupling and low frequency response
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2007, 06:51:16 PM »
"frequency dependent feedback between stages through a common power supply"

I think I get it.

Thanks Lin

Offline steve

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Re: DC coupling and low frequency response, worse than you think?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2007, 04:42:05 AM »
"frequency dependent feedback between stages through a common power supply"

I think I get it.

Thanks Lin

Sorry about the link, I corrected the error above. I also added a minimal definition of DC coupling in my first post. Rich, frequency dependent feedback is yet another and different problem when using a common power supply for multiple stages. I also have a webpage addressing that issue
( http://www.sasaudiolabs.com/theory8a.htm )

I also rewrote the page listed below.

A further explanation, DC coupling means that the design of a circuit is such that a coupling capacitor is not needed, just wire or a resistor coupling two stages. DC coupling is quite prevelant in solid state preamplifiers. Usually one can tell as they will state there is 'no coupling capacitor', or 'no output coupling capacitor'. Sometimes, they may not state anything, assuming that one knows there is no output capacitor.

Many multiple stage tube preamplifiers are DC coupled between their stages. But usually their outputs are capacitively coupled or use an output transformer, both limiting the peak rise in low frequency response.

In solid state amplifiers, there is no output capacitor (of course no output transformer as tubes have) between the output stage and the speaker; so ss amps are usually DC coupled through every stage.

The more DC coupled stages in a component, the more the rise in the low response. Some more than others as it depends on the power supply design. It is like turning up a bass tone control. Many personally prefer accentuated bass, which sounds deeper as the fundamental is accentuated over the harmonics (say of a string bass). But the bass can become unnatural and start masking information, even to the midrange.

Comparing solid state amps to SE amps contrasts the differences of each. Whereas ss amps tend to emphasis deep bass, se amps tend to de-emphasis deep bass.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention Richidoo. I hope this explanation helps.

http://www.sasaudiolabs.com/theory12a.htm
« Last Edit: July 21, 2007, 03:26:08 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
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SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
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Offline richidoo

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Re: DC coupling and low frequency response
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2007, 07:46:45 AM »
Hi Steve
Yeah, it does help a lot. Thanks for clarifying. I might be back for another question after I try to digest it, but it sure is nice to have a designer and theorist of your caliber here at AN. I stand to learn a lot and probably a few others too. Feel free to rant at will.

I have a Cary SLI-80 which uses coupling caps somewhere between the three stages (it's integrated, 6922>6SN7>6550>trans). When Upscale Audio started bragging about their new SLI-80 mod to remove the coupling caps, I wondered why they were in there in the first place, obviously they are expensive oil/copper whatever and if taking them out makes it better then what is wrong with Dennis Had's brain?

From your explanation I deduce that Dennis thought SLI-80 had plenty of bass already and wanted to prevent fluffing it any more than it was. Mids and highs are already pretty darn good, so taking out the coupling caps would not be a net gain. Is my logic correct? On the flip side of that, Cary does acknowledge that upgrading the stock oil/paper coupling caps to Jensen oil paper copper whatever does make a significant improvement. I have not done it yet, cause I will probably sell it, but hate to say goodbye to first tube love.

So, from the expert's perspective (that's you,) what is the advantage in this case of removing coupling caps? From reading Gary Pimm and other hard core tubers avoiding them caused me to think of it as a badge of honor to not have them, but you are suggesting that like feedback and single ended designs they have their place and are part of the best designs.

Thanks for your comments!
Rich

WEEZ

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Re: DC coupling and low frequency response
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2007, 08:10:18 AM »
I agree, it's interesting to read about some of the science that affects what we hear.

WEEZ

Offline steve

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Re: DC coupling and low frequency response
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2007, 04:58:48 PM »
Hi Steve
Yeah, it does help a lot. Thanks for clarifying. I might be back for another question after I try to digest it, but it sure is nice to have a designer and theorist of your caliber here at AN. I stand to learn a lot and probably a few others too. Feel free to rant at will.

I have a Cary SLI-80 which uses coupling caps somewhere between the three stages (it's integrated, 6922>6SN7>6550>trans). When Upscale Audio started bragging about their new SLI-80 mod to remove the coupling caps, I wondered why they were in there in the first place, obviously they are expensive oil/copper whatever and if taking them out makes it better then what is wrong with Dennis Had's brain?

From your explanation I deduce that Dennis thought SLI-80 had plenty of bass already and wanted to prevent fluffing it any more than it was. Mids and highs are already pretty darn good, so taking out the coupling caps would not be a net gain. Is my logic correct? On the flip side of that, Cary does acknowledge that upgrading the stock oil/paper coupling caps to Jensen oil paper copper whatever does make a significant improvement. I have not done it yet, cause I will probably sell it, but hate to say goodbye to first tube love.

So, from the expert's perspective (that's you,) what is the advantage in this case of removing coupling caps? From reading Gary Pimm and other hard core tubers avoiding them caused me to think of it as a badge of honor to not have them, but you are suggesting that like feedback and single ended designs they have their place and are part of the best designs.

Thanks for your comments!
Rich

Hi Rich,

     With tube amps with OPTs, there isn't as much problem as with SS, but care still needs to be excercised.

     I think Dennis probably thought DC coupling sounded better than teh pio caps. Or they may have changed their reference system. Systems seen to really vary and speakers are a prime example. Hard to say for sure.

 I have heard different brand speakers have such different tonal balances that it was simply amazing. For instance, at the same venue with the same system, I heard one speaker that sounded extremely full, while another speaker connected sounded extremely thin and bright. Both indicative of two different reference systems that two different manufacturers used when designing their respective speakers.

I think caps do have a place. In fact I think a capacitively couple component can sound just as good, or even better than a DC coupled component.

Hope this helps Rich.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2007, 03:28:40 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
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SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
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Offline bobrex

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Re: DC coupling and low frequency response
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2007, 07:22:51 PM »
I'm not sure that DC coupling in and of itself is the culprit.  From what I've seen, most designers (amplifier - preamps don't follow the same rules) that use DC coupled circuits also design around extremely low output impedances.  This also results in deeper lows, and typically more slam, impact,.. whatever.  But such circuits, at least to me, also sound artificial and overly lean - they typically make string basses sound - ummm, wrong.  So to me the question is" "is there a relationship between the DC coupling and ultra low output Zs?"  I know enough about circuitry to think that there doesn't have to be, but what do I know?

Offline steve

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Re: DC coupling and low frequency response
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2007, 08:24:59 AM »
Good questions Bobrex. I will try to cover some basic info for newbies who may not be electronically inclined.

I think the first question that needs answering is why low output impedance of a preamplifier. (Amps require different treatment.) There are two main reasons, not necessarily in order of importance.

The first is because the interconnect capacitance (IC) and input capacitance of the following device (say amp) tend to reduce the high frequency response. (IC capacitance tends to dominate among the two.) But is a low output Z necessary? Actually a resounding no. One can use low plate resistance tubes, thus no need for a low impedance buffer stage, unless one is using long interconnects.
 
Secondly, to reduce hum pickup. But again, that is mainly for long IC runs, or for some reason a problem with hum pickup. 

Next, we need to discuss if low impedances change the sonics, adding more "slam, impact". Actually no in one sense and yes in another. I have tested alot of capacitors, so if one uses an inferior cap, yes. Since caps sound different, only one or two caps can be the most accurate vs a straight wire, the best will not limit in dynamics vs dc coupling. (Less one is tempted to ask me what caps I use, some are special designed/ordered. I also have not checked every cap in the world.) But many designs use small coupling capacitors, thus the deep bass is limited.

"This also results in deeper lows" (DC coupling)

That is my point. Yes, deeper lows, but not accurate lows. The deeper lows are the result of the lower bass being overly excentuated (more so than the harmonics) because of the inherent power supply design. The result is that the bass, although sounding deeper, is not natural and accurate to the incoming signal. 

(DC coupled) "But such circuits, at least to me, also sound artificial and overly lean - they typically make string basses sound - ummm, wrong."

Yep you are probably right. Excentuating the bass usually affects the midrange, or even higher as well. This is because DC couple circuits almost always utilize more power supplies to muck things up. That is one reason I don't design balanced designs, more power supplies
(except in multiple stage components such as amplifiers to prevent feedback).

The question then becomes if an extra power supply or two is better than one coupling cap? (If one designs so as not to need another power supply, some other complicated setup is needed to couple the stages together.)  The answer depends on the quality of the coupling capacitor. Most available today are poor, but I would usually say no.

"is there a relationship between the DC coupling and ultra low output Zs?"

Can be. Depends on the output capacitor size. PBN preamps and amps are designed so one can connect a 75 ohm output to 75 ohm input. There, a coupling cap would not be good.
 
The main reason cited by many manufacturers is that DC coupling will drive the Input of low input Z amps. But unless the input Z of the amp is below 20k ohms (I may be conservative), there is no need for either DC coupling or low output Z from the preamp.

That last statement needs to be qualified. The RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook, 26 engineers and the 'bible' so to speak, recommends the output Z of the preamp be no more than approximately 1/5th that of the input Z of the following stage. So with 20k input Z, the preamps output could be, say 4k output. I recommend less than that, say 2k. But this is only to make sure the HD distortion doesn't rise appreciably. Also, with a 4k output Z, even low capacitance cables can affect the highs. This based on listening tests.

As you mentioned, why add a buffer stage (because of high output Z tubes); another stage that will only deteriorate the sonics further? And why use high capacitance cables that will also deteriorate the sonics? Eliminate the buffer stage and lower unwanted capacitance, thus killing two bad birds.

"Ever notice how some old designs sound so good? One reason is that they may not use a buffer stage, an extra stage that doesn't do much, except lower the fidelity."

Yes. And even buffer stages have harmonic distortion (HD). This means that when the HD of the gainstage passes throught the buffer stage, higher orders of HD are present. It is important to keep the HD in all stages as low as possible.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 02:57:27 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (Owner, Electron Eng, SAS Audio Labs, Ret)
SAS "V" 39pf/m 6N copper ICs,
SAS Test Phono Stage
Acutex 320 STR Mov Iron Cart
SAS 11A Perfect Tube Preamp
SAS 25 W Ref Triode/UL Monoblocks
2 way Floor Standing Test Speakers