H-Cat?

[richidoo]

Ever heard of North American Products? Manufacturer of the infamous H-Cat preamp? They have a 100W stereo power amplifier now using the same principles. H-Cat hyperbole is overflowing, so of course I gotta check it out. I am auditioning it sometime in the next week or two at my dealer. He has Feastrex D9nf in Hedlun Horns.

http://www.h-cat.com/
http://www.stereophile.com/news/10613/
http://www.avguide.com/file-download?review=751
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1218650397&read&keyw&zzh-cat
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1059180366&read&keyw&h-cat&&st0

Rich

[Black Sand Cable]

I can honestly say that I have never heard them but based on this:

(DF-100.2 Power Amp) 100 watts per channel / X7 Doppler Control Sysytm / $7995.00

I can safely say that I never will. $8K is a lot of coin and at that price point, there is a lot of stuff out there that I would go with first. Moscode, McCormack, Parasound HALO's and the list goes on.....

I can't believe they sell stuff at this price point and have a web-site that looks like a 10 year old made it. Based on that it's hard to take them very seriously.

[miklorsmith]

I heard of them a while back on the Audiogon thread and contacted Roger Paul about a review.  After a protracted e-mail exchange I decided he was too busy to provide a loaner.

The magic they're professing is soundstaging-related which isn't one of my personal hot-buttons.  Of course, it could still be great stuff.  The amp is certainly "up there" in pricing.  I believe there is such as a thing as a "bargain $8,000 amp", as in top-of-class at that price point but it's gotta be pretty freakin' great.  I would guess that most folks wanting/needing an $8k amp either have hi-eff speakers that don't need anywhere near 100 watts or monstrosities demanding much more.

The 100-watt SS segment definitely isn't sexy all by itself.

[richidoo]

I would like 200W, but honestly that is just my dogma leaking out. I need what I need and not an erg more. How much is that? Sol's 30W integrated can play loud rap forever. Mike's RE Designs are quite stout little buggers at 75W. But both of those have well designed (nuke proof) power supplies with plenty of headroom. I guess loud orchestral passages with bass drums and their reverb are my biggest power draw. Technically 75W is enough with my easy load 90dB speakers. But headroom has a sound of its own.  I am not in the 1000wpc camp, I crave extreme refinement and infinite resolution.

I already have $4500 amps, which I consider an incredible value in high power tube amps. So if there ever is another amp for me, I expect it will cost more. I have already researched and crossed out Moscode, Parasound, McIntosh, McCormack. They are refined versions of typical class AB SS. I want more for that kind of money. Spectron?, Transcendent BEAST, Pass XA 100.5, you know, something really awesome, with perfect tonal accuracy.

H-Cat concept is actively maintaining waveform velocity at several points in the circuit, which preserves tone, harmonic integrity, and of course soundstaging. The blur that messes imaging also screws up tone with the same smearing in time or space. It's like feedback without the time delay. These Usher Be tweeters and midranges are a miracle, so I want to feed my little miracles royal jelly and be utterly amazed every night. I also want to be mentally inspired by truly innovative gear as a work of art in itself. So weird stuff is always appealling, but I am also a very careful shopper.

Anyway, I am fortunate to have a local dealer with the pre and amps in stock, so I will be able to get a sense of what's all the hubbub, bub. I got my Feastrex drivers from him, nice guy.  I will still need to hear them at home before any ink is shed in their name.  I think there aren't very many amps built yet, < dozen maybe.
Rich

[Bigfish8]

Rich:

Good luck with your search for a new amp(s).  You seem to know exactly what you are looking for and I look forward to learning what you eventually settle on! 

Ken

[miklorsmith]

My statement on the 100 wpc isn't really that there's anything wrong with that number, rather that the perception of the number is likely to fall through some cracks in the market.  If it's Really That Great, it could go the other way too, hi-eff and "regular" guys might take a flier on something bigger and smaller than they might choose otherwise.

I'm with you on the "power ratings aren't everything" thought but it is a starting place and I think folks are still more comfortable paying for watts than now-ubiquitous but unquantified current.

I have nothing against the company, I'm always pulling for the little guys in this hobby.  If his wavefront velocity ideas pan out in the real world these products could be truly groundbreaking.

[richidoo]

Well he's been at it for a long time, Golden ear award years ago but it hasn't caught on fire yet. First impression is contrary to common beliefs and marketing style is not up to the price point, but I have found that engineer types who are already busy with orders could care less about the website appearance. But comments from actual owners seem to be all positive.

My smily sarcasm may not have come through clearly Mike, I am totally tongue in cheek at this point, until I hear the dang thing. Probably would try the pre first, let the new amp run some beta time in the field, look for rev 2 in a couple years. Or maybe not   hehe

Of course power is power, no way around that. You need what you need. But 100W is a lot of power for many speakers, would be overkill for yours! Many speaker designers just think watts are cheap, so go ahead and add another woofer, soon you have 2ohm dip and you need that 1000wpc to get a dynamic thrill. But most cheap watts sound less than truly high end.

There isn't a word written about the $8k amps anywhere, so it is all preamp coattails. I found out that the amp does not have balanced input to go with the preamp's balance output. 

Thanks Ken for the encouragement. Lookin forward to seeing you next week!
Rich

[_Scotty_]

What the H-CAT designer is referring after you wade through the marketing hyperbole about doppler distortion and wavefront timing errors is propagation delay through the feedback loop.
In any amplifier using global negative feedback where a portion of the output signal is reintroduced at the input of the amplifier 180 degrees out of phase with the input there will be a shift in phase of the error correction signal as a function of the amplfiers frequency bandwidth. In other words at some frequency in the ultra-sonic region the feedback will have shifted in phase to the point that it is now back in phase at the input of the amp and is now positive feedback, usually before this happens the amplifier will show signs of instability or oscillation. This occurs because it takes a finite amount of time for the incoming signal pass through the circuit and be amplified. Propagation delay can be minimized by having a simpler circuit designed for a very wide bandwith before feedback is applied and then limiting the bandwidth at which full gain occurs to a that which is quite a distance away from the frequency at which the feedback becomes positive. Imaging,transparency,clarity and resolution to name a few valued qualities, are all affected by feedback accuracy. Whether or not he has developed a circuit with lower propagation delay and a more accurate application of negative feedback that is superior to that of other respected designers in the field remains to be seen. Believe it or not any amplifier designer worth his salt now has to beat the performance of a $3.90/1000 chip amp, the LM3885. When properly implemented this amplifier sets a benchmark for transparency,imaging and top to bottom clarity.  Maybe some formal reviews of his products would shed a little more light on their performance potential.
Scotty

[miklorsmith]

That was my thought.   

He's talking about correcting errors all the way up the chain to the microphone though.  The whole concept is beyond my current understanding or my understanding of current, both of which are highly suspect.

[richidoo]

Hi Scotty! Roger Paul says that the adjustments are made in real time, in several places in the circuit, directly at the point of measured error. It is not traditional feedback, which he specifically says and most peole agree is valuable but offers limited efficacy. There is no propagation delay in the correction circuits. You mean National LM3886 Overture? I couldn't find any 3885. Thanks.

The Wave control is not something that immediately appeals to me, but owners say that even leaving it at a rough setting for connected equipment or just zero is still excellent. Constant fine tuning every song is not something I am interested in. Along the same lines, I can hear when my amps are 1-2ma (3-7%) out of bias. I set the bias before any serious listening session. It is a pain in the ass, but easier than most tube amps. So the idea of an adjustment knob on the front doesn't bother me, as long as it is not a night and day difference with a slight adjustment, needed every damn song. From my research it doesn't seem like it is a problem. Only a home audition of a week or more will tell for sure about the ergonomics.  It doesn't try to correct up to the mic, I agree that is silly. Same as when Altmann says he can correct recorded jitter burned to a CD. bullshit.

[_Scotty_]

richidoo ,When I learn how to type my error rate will be lower, it is the LM3886,missed it by that much. My amp uses the stereo package LM4780. My preamp uses no global feedback only local degeneration. Being a buffer with no gain, I have of no need for a solution to a problem I don't have. I guess I could be considered a hard sell for his products. If this is more than marketing perhaps he could interest someone in using his approach in some recognized brands via a licensing agreement.
I would be interested in hearing his gear but without a financial commitment.
Scotty 

[richidoo]

Me too, ya gotta get a relaxed in-home audition to know what it's really about.

Supposedly he has/had applied for a patent. But without that nobody will/should pay for licensing, nor should he reveal his methods.  From what I have heard the guts are pretty well disguised, but supposedly all discreet.

Maybe in a week or so I will have more to say from experience.  Thanks for the advice and input guys!! It is always appreciated.
Rich

[Wolfman]

Rich-The amount of change the Wavefront brings will depend on how optimised both your room and power is. However,even in a perfect setting,I believe the differences are more in the subtle to noticeable range,not "night and day".
You will find that after a week,you'll have the range narrowed a fair amount to get what sound appeals to your ears.
Those potted modules can take awhile to completely break in,but a solid week of leaving it on and listening should get you a pretty good idea if it's for you.
There's apparently few amps out there,but Tbg has posted his thoughts about his new stereo unit on A'Gon in a new thread. He liked it well enough that he's selling his LSA/Exemplar Statement amp. However,he's also a big fan of Roger's work,so take that to mean what you will.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1218650397&read&keyw&zzh-cat
I find the pre to be very transparent,with no real added voice of it's own and very revealing of what's upstream. If you're looking for it to add any color or personality to your chain,it probably won't be to your liking.

Another problem is the looks dept. The P12R units are an approvement over previous models,but put one side by side to a Dodd or Supratek,and well............
A lot of people want less of a utilitarian appearance for 5K.
I hope you like it,however I sure will be looking forward to your thoughts,be they positive or negative.

[richidoo]

Thanks Wolfman. I'm not worried about the looks, and I want to reduce added color as much as possible, so it might be OK.  What really appeals to me is the talk of realistic tone in a solid state amp. If I can get rid of the tubes and still keep a natural tone I would love it. I have been emailing with Norm a little, turns out I met him at RMAF last year in the hallway, talking about Feastrex drivers. I saw his new thread about the amp. I'm hoping to hear it tomorrow or Monday.  Then maybe an in home audition at some point later when I'm ready to buy.
Thanks
Rich

[richidoo]

Auditioning HCat pre and amp tomorrow. I'm pretty excited to check it out. I'm bringing my tube electronics to compare. Also looking forward to hearing the 9" version of my 5" Feastrex drivers. Long drive to get there so I hope it's worth it. This is the only chance I have to hear the pre and amp together without buying first. 
Rich