Author Topic: Subs... Giving them another try  (Read 10742 times)

Black Sand Cable

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Re: Subs... Giving them another try
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2008, 10:07:55 AM »
My dual DS-12 Rythmik's are being handled by the SMS-1 with no problems at all.

I have had this combo paired up against a host of subs and to date nothing has come along that made me want to swap them out. If anybody wants to look into these email Brian at Rythmik. He is a great guy to deal with who knows his stuff.

brian@rythmikaudio.com

With me now being a dealer for PSB speakers I do have a few PSB subs on route including the HD8 which from all accounts is a heck of a sub with a very small footprint so it will be interesting to see how it works out.

http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/Subwoofers/SubSeries-HD8

Black Sand Cable

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Re: Subs... Giving them another try
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2008, 10:19:33 AM »
I have sent out an invite to Brian from Rythmik to join our little group here and offer up his two cents.  :D

ik632

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Re: Subs... Giving them another try
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2008, 10:29:58 AM »
I've been through the bass head experience as well. I've used ported, sealed, and a mix (band pass) with good results depending on what you want. Band pass tended to be very good for targeting certain frequencies and amplifying the volume of those (for SPL competition). Ported worked well for hard hitting bass but tended to get a little muddy if the enclosure and port wasn't sized perfect. I found that sealed (for me) were the easiest to live with even if the enclosure wasn't perfect for the driver. I had some Infinity Kappa Perfects (the aluminum ones) in a competition car (3 - 10" subs in 0.6 cuf enclosures) that hit hard when turned up but also played very musically.

I run 2 subs at home. I have a 10" Klipsch in the 2.1 system and a Paradigm 8" in the theater (5.1) setup. I think the 8" actually sounds better for music, but it gets a little boomy (fun for movies but not 100% accurate for music). My ideal setup would probably be using 10" speakers in a sealed enclosure, maybe with a passive radiator. You could do a nice enclosure with both facing the listener (and have their design mimic the main fronts).

rythmik

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First post
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2008, 08:09:10 AM »
This is Brian from Rythmik. I have to say after one hears good bass, it is hard to go back without it.

John himself has gone through several subs and he is pretty happy with bass from directservo. Here I would like to give a sensible explanation of why it can sound better than other subs.

What servo achieves is something that would take a lot of physical asset (such as larger magnet or lighter cone mass) to do. For instance, very long time ago, there was an article in "speaker builder" magazine trying to answer why with the same motor, a midrange driver would sound better than a similar midbass driver from the same manufacturer (at that time it is a common practice of doing that from European makers). The reason is simple, the midrange driver has the characteristic that the midbass driver has to take away: 1) low moving mass (sorry midbass driver's cone needs to be heavy in order to make fo value, also the voice coil needs to be longer for the required excursion), 2) low inductance (sorry midbass drivers needs a lot more turns of voice coil to  make the BL value), and 3) lower Qts value (with the heavier cone of midbass driver, the Qts cannot be low).  Qts is actually an indicator about how well the cone movement can be controlled. Anyway, in subwoofer, not only all of these rules are violated, they are doubled, or even tripled. Eventually all of these broil down to cone control. First, high moving mass takes larger magnet to control (keep in mind, all analog signal is continuous, if the cone is in the wrong position because the distortion at time x, how long does it take for the cone to come back to correct position at the next moment?, or the system should just inherit that error forever? And if it does recover, what is the recovery time. Servo has way faster recovery time). Second,  high inductance has a similar effect as high moving mass.  What servo does is it tries to gain the control back so that the cone movement follows what the amplifier asks, and no others.  Why would the cone not listen to the amplifier?  For instance, the reflection from enclosure within.  Sound is generated from both sides of the cone, and we shouldn't assume the energy from the back of the cone just magically disappears. That energy actually pushs the cone and causes the second, third.... transmission.  The purpose of the servo is to hold the cone at bay with respect to these reflections, and at the same time follow the signal from the amplifier to move the cone with the exact speed that it wants. As soon as the sensor sense some cone movement in the wrong direction, the feedback will cause the amplifier to output a certain voltage to counteract the external force. How much voltage is will output depends on the servo loop design.

When people discuss servo, they cannot avoid talking about Velodyne and other accelerometer based servo approaches. We uses sensing coil.  The main difference is the accelerometer achieves high cone mass in equivalent circuit, and our sensing coil approach achieves higher damping. This is best explained with a push test on the cone when the system is powered up and the driver is in free air. Actually you cannot do that with Velodyne because the sub will destroy itself if it is not properly sealed.  When you push our cone, one would get a sensation of oil pot. That is very similar to those oil pot sitting next to a tone arm. On the other hand,  accelerometer based sub will give you the sense of a heavy brick.  We all know which is better. When the reflection hits our cone, our cone moves less than nonservo cone, and during this process, it dissipate the energy, and reflection back a smaller energy, etc.

I think this is a 3000 ft view of what servo does.  BTW, our servo uses only two resistors and 1 cap between the sensor output and the amplifier feedback summing point. Even nonservo amplifier needs to use these many components.  So our approach does not have any catch. It has no active component on the feedback path of sensor.  Some people call it passive servo, and I prefer to call it direct coupling servo. There is no servo hiss sound, there is very little hum noise (no hum noise if the system grounding is good), there is almost zero coloration.

Brian Ding
Rythmik Audio
« Last Edit: May 02, 2008, 05:16:46 AM by rythmik »

Offline Carlman

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Re: Subs... Giving them another try
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2008, 08:20:52 AM »
Thank you so much for joining and explaining in detail how your sub technology works.  I'm on board for 3 of them. :)  Can't wait to hear them... but I have to. :(  I need walls, carpet, outlets... the list just goes on and on... haha.  I'm shooting for this summer, though.

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline bpape

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Re: Subs... Giving them another try
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2008, 08:25:34 AM »
Welcome to our little corner of the world Brian.  Nice to have you here.  I'm sure you'll be a great asset to have around to keep us all straight.  Are you going to be at RMAF this year?  Would love to hear some of your products.

Bryan
I am serious... and don't call me Shirley

miklorsmith

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Re: Subs... Giving them another try
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2008, 08:37:53 AM »
Rythmik - giving bassheads a good name since . . .  :D

Welcome aboard!

rythmik

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Re: Subs... Giving them another try
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2008, 04:54:37 AM »
Welcome to our little corner of the world Brian.  Nice to have you here.  I'm sure you'll be a great asset to have around to keep us all straight.  Are you going to be at RMAF this year?  Would love to hear some of your products.

Bryan

I do plan to do with Danny at GR Research and another potential partner.

-Brian

Offline Inscrutable

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Re: Subs... Giving them another try
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2008, 01:54:55 AM »
FWIW, the cleanest most articulate and best integrated bass I've heard has always come from IB setups - but I'll stipulate I've likely not heard anyone properly EQ'd.  Not sure if you have an extra room in the right place in the basement - doubt you'd get the OK to vent the backwave upstairs :)

Offline rollo

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Re: Subs... Giving them another try
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2008, 06:47:04 AM »
Not to rain on anyones parade IMO the subs from HSU are over achievers and the price is right. A pair of VTF2s is under $1000. Tough to beat for the performance and price.
   BTW two subs is the way to go.
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Offline bpape

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Re: Subs... Giving them another try
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2008, 08:17:06 AM »
Agreed and agreed.  2 subs is more pain to set up but a lot of benefit to be had.  The HSU's are a bargain - especially for HT use.  Now, for music, sorry, but I'll stay with ACI if you have a quick speaker or need to cross it over a little higher.  I've played with a lot of subs to integrate into music systems and the ACI's are one of the very few that you'll get away with pairing with Maggies or anything else that's extremely fast.

Personal preference.

Bryan
I am serious... and don't call me Shirley