Author Topic: I think my System is finally finished  (Read 5552 times)

Offline steve

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2020, 09:57:43 AM »
See my sig line ;)

I had to do a double take read. At first I thought you meant neurotic. But I do visit Ed's once a week.



« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 10:03:06 AM by steve »
Steve Sammet (retired, owner, SAS Audio Labs)
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SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
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2 way test Spkrs, 28 - 20khz  -3db (28hz)

Offline Barry (NJ)

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2020, 01:02:19 PM »
LOL!
Happiness is when your system overcomes your nervosa ;) 
So much media, so little time... My Media Room...

Offline steve

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2020, 09:58:50 PM »
  Done ?? Never done. With your knowledge and building talent you never will be done.  Just saying. There is always that variable that we want to try. Modding inexpensive gear is fun sometimes with good results sometimes not . Hence the chase. Have fun.

charles
 

Upgrading the dac was fun and now really really accurate. Even used 6 inch 6n all copper wires. Can't do much more with the room.
The 11A is perfect; monoblock triode amps, ics are finished, except looks.

I suppose eventually better drivers for the test speakers and some solid 6n speaker wires? Problems are the cost and the
limited frequency range of the best cone materials. I like two way designs, obviously modded the full range driver. Time to
fully enjoy the music.

cheers
steve
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 10:28:46 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (retired, owner, SAS Audio Labs)
"V" Very Low Capacitance ICs, 40pf 1 meter
SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Tube Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio Labs 25 W Triode Reference Monoblocks
2 way test Spkrs, 28 - 20khz  -3db (28hz)

Offline Nick B

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2020, 12:28:13 AM »
  Done ?? Never done. With your knowledge and building talent you never will be done.  Just saying. There is always that variable that we want to try. Modding inexpensive gear is fun sometimes with good results sometimes not . Hence the chase. Have fun.

charles
 

Upgrading the dac was fun and now really really accurate. Even used 6 inch 6n all copper wires. Can't do much more with the room.
The 11A is perfect; monoblock triode amps, ics are finished, except looks.

I suppose eventually better drivers for the test speakers and some solid 6n speaker wires? Problems are the cost and the
limited frequency range of the best cone materials. I like two way designs, obviously modded the full range driver. Time to
fully enjoy the music.

cheers
steve

Steve,
Time indeed to fully enjoy the music. Congratulations on the result  :thumb: I’m very close to having things dialed in, just awaiting a digital coax. It’s amazing what adding some Jupiter caps and Amperex 7308s can do. I’m a fan of 2 ways. Thank goodness for speakers that sound great and that I can easily handle.
Nick
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Online doug s.

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2020, 08:29:19 AM »
i'm a fan of 2-ways, as well.  if crossed over to subwoofers!   :mrgreen:

re: drivers, you should check out accuton.  expensive?  yes.  but quite efficient, and good frequency range - if you're willing to cross over the woofers at 100hz or so, to subwoofers.  israel blume uses an accuton woofer from 100hz-4khz, crossed to an accuton tweeter; the woofer can be crossed as high as 6khz, but going lower allows better driver overlap, while still allowing the accuton woofer to cover the majority of musical info.  this set-up is in his most expensive offerings, which have gotten critical praise from most everyone.  while i've never heard them, i owned a pair of his less-expensive offerings, (the coincident victory's), and i can say w/o reservation that he knows how to design speakers...

doug s.
Upgrading the dac was fun and now really really accurate. Even used 6 inch 6n all copper wires. Can't do much more with the room.
The 11A is perfect; monoblock triode amps, ics are finished, except looks.

I suppose eventually better drivers for the test speakers and some solid 6n speaker wires? Problems are the cost and the
limited frequency range of the best cone materials. I like two way designs, obviously modded the full range driver. Time to
fully enjoy the music.

cheers
steve

Offline steve

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2020, 01:54:14 PM »
i'm a fan of 2-ways, as well.  if crossed over to subwoofers!   :mrgreen:

re: drivers, you should check out accuton.  expensive?  yes.  but quite efficient, and good frequency range - if you're willing to cross over the woofers at 100hz or so, to subwoofers.  israel blume uses an accuton woofer from 100hz-4khz, crossed to an accuton tweeter; the woofer can be crossed as high as 6khz, but going lower allows better driver overlap, while still allowing the accuton woofer to cover the majority of musical info.  this set-up is in his most expensive offerings, which have gotten critical praise from most everyone.  while i've never heard them, i owned a pair of his less-expensive offerings, (the coincident victory's), and i can say w/o reservation that he knows how to design speakers...

doug s.
Upgrading the dac was fun and now really really accurate. Even used 6 inch 6n all copper wires. Can't do much more with the room.
The 11A is perfect; monoblock triode amps, ics are finished, except looks.

I suppose eventually better drivers for the test speakers and some solid 6n speaker wires? Problems are the cost and the
limited frequency range of the best cone materials. I like two way designs, obviously modded the full range driver. Time to
fully enjoy the music.

cheers
steve

Hi Doug,

Thanks, but some years ago I decided to exit the midrange crossover frequencies, where the ear is most sensitive, and crossover quite low, in my case around 170hz. By doing so, I don't have the doppler effect while having the advantage of one driver from
low mids to 20khz.

The main problem I am having now is that the typical pots are so touchy and change resistance due to play in the control shaft.
So it looks like 10 or 15 turn pots are in order.

Cheers

steve
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 02:11:53 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (retired, owner, SAS Audio Labs)
"V" Very Low Capacitance ICs, 40pf 1 meter
SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Tube Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio Labs 25 W Triode Reference Monoblocks
2 way test Spkrs, 28 - 20khz  -3db (28hz)

Offline Nick B

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2020, 04:25:45 PM »
Doug,
You did say expensive, but these prices surprised me a bit  :shock:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/accuton/

I have heard of Coincident, but Israel Blume’s name wasn’t familiar to me. An interesting read for me.
http://coincidentspeaker.com/about.htm
Nick

i'm a fan of 2-ways, as well.  if crossed over to subwoofers!   :mrgreen:

re: drivers, you should check out accuton.  expensive?  yes.  but quite efficient, and good frequency range - if you're willing to cross over the woofers at 100hz or so, to subwoofers.  israel blume uses an accuton woofer from 100hz-4khz, crossed to an accuton tweeter; the woofer can be crossed as high as 6khz, but going lower allows better driver overlap, while still allowing the accuton woofer to cover the majority of musical info.  this set-up is in his most expensive offerings, which have gotten critical praise from most everyone.  while i've never heard them, i owned a pair of his less-expensive offerings, (the coincident victory's), and i can say w/o reservation that he knows how to design speakers...

doug s.
Upgrading the dac was fun and now really really accurate. Even used 6 inch 6n all copper wires. Can't do much more with the room.
The 11A is perfect; monoblock triode amps, ics are finished, except looks.

I suppose eventually better drivers for the test speakers and some solid 6n speaker wires? Problems are the cost and the
limited frequency range of the best cone materials. I like two way designs, obviously modded the full range driver. Time to
fully enjoy the music.

cheers
steve
Van Alstine SET 120 Control Amp
Audio Hungary APR 204 preamp
Fritz Carrera 7 BE speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Auralic Aries Mini & Mojo Audio lps
Audio Envy cables
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline steve

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2020, 05:41:19 PM »
Doug,
You did say expensive, but these prices surprised me a bit  :shock:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/accuton/

I have heard of Coincident, but Israel Blume’s name wasn’t familiar to me. An interesting read for me.
http://coincidentspeaker.com/about.htm
Nick

i'm a fan of 2-ways, as well.  if crossed over to subwoofers!   :mrgreen:

re: drivers, you should check out accuton.  expensive?  yes.  but quite efficient, and good frequency range - if you're willing to cross over the woofers at 100hz or so, to subwoofers.  israel blume uses an accuton woofer from 100hz-4khz, crossed to an accuton tweeter; the woofer can be crossed as high as 6khz, but going lower allows better driver overlap, while still allowing the accuton woofer to cover the majority of musical info.  this set-up is in his most expensive offerings, which have gotten critical praise from most everyone.  while i've never heard them, i owned a pair of his less-expensive offerings, (the coincident victory's), and i can say w/o reservation that he knows how to design speakers...

doug s.
Upgrading the dac was fun and now really really accurate. Even used 6 inch 6n all copper wires. Can't do much more with the room.
The 11A is perfect; monoblock triode amps, ics are finished, except looks.

I suppose eventually better drivers for the test speakers and some solid 6n speaker wires? Problems are the cost and the
limited frequency range of the best cone materials. I like two way designs, obviously modded the full range driver. Time to
fully enjoy the music.

cheers
steve

No problem Nick. Just zip out to your money tree.   :-P


----------

Seriously, I hate to be a downer to anyone, but I checked out some of the midrange and tweeter FR plots and am not a fan
in my two way designs. I doubt I would use them in a three way design either.

Just my opinion.

steve
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 06:07:35 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (retired, owner, SAS Audio Labs)
"V" Very Low Capacitance ICs, 40pf 1 meter
SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Tube Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio Labs 25 W Triode Reference Monoblocks
2 way test Spkrs, 28 - 20khz  -3db (28hz)

Online doug s.

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2020, 09:59:31 PM »
hi steve,

it was my understanding that crossovers at 100hz and 4khz pretty-much avoid having a x-over in the midrange.

i do have a speaker driver in my oris 150 horn that goes from 150hz to 20khz...

doug s.
Hi Doug,

Thanks, but some years ago I decided to exit the midrange crossover frequencies, where the ear is most sensitive, and crossover quite low, in my case around 170hz. By doing so, I don't have the doppler effect while having the advantage of one driver from
low mids to 20khz.

The main problem I am having now is that the typical pots are so touchy and change resistance due to play in the control shaft.
So it looks like 10 or 15 turn pots are in order.

Cheers

steve

Online doug s.

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2020, 10:02:05 PM »
hi steve,

if you're referencing the accuton drivers, no problem; you're not being a downer, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion.  but you should give them a listen sometime...   8)

doug s.
----------

Seriously, I hate to be a downer to anyone, but I checked out some of the midrange and tweeter FR plots and am not a fan
in my two way designs. I doubt I would use them in a three way design either.

Just my opinion.

steve

Offline toobluvr

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2020, 12:06:27 PM »
.........  while i've never heard them, i owned a pair of his less-expensive offerings, (the coincident victory's), and i can say w/o reservation that he knows how to design speakers...

doug s.

[/quote]

I concur.

Over the years I've owned several pair of Coincident speakers:  Conquest, Visionary Reference, Super Eclipse, Digital Master.
All excellent.
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Carts: Music Maker 3,  Shelter 501
amps, peamps, phono stages, digital gear
complete: see Sunnydaze system on AC

Offline steve

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2020, 04:49:54 PM »
hi steve,

it was my understanding that crossovers at 100hz and 4khz pretty-much avoid having a x-over in the midrange.

i do have a speaker driver in my oris 150 horn that goes from 150hz to 20khz...

doug s.
Hi Doug,

Thanks, but some years ago I decided to exit the midrange crossover frequencies, where the ear is most sensitive, and crossover quite low, in my case around 170hz. By doing so, I don't have the doppler effect while having the advantage of one driver from
low mids to 20khz.

The main problem I am having now is that the typical pots are so touchy and change resistance due to play in the control shaft.
So it looks like 10 or 15 turn pots are in order.

Cheers

steve

Hi Doug,

That is what some may say, so I attached some data graphs. Notice that the ear is most sensitive between ~800hz to 6khz, with 3.5khz/4khz clearly being the most sensitive frequencies of the ear. 100hz is somewhat ok, I used 170hz and found it was very touchy. How touchy?

150hz +/- is a normal low impedance area of a typical cone type speaker. I had been playing around with 5 feet length of 10 solid 18 gauge wires on one speaker leg, but only 9 parallel wires in the other speaker leg. 10 was too many and 8 was too few in that leg.

And the wire is nothing special, certainly not 4 or 6n. (Maybe that will be my next project but it won't be cheap.)

As mentioned before, I can also make a variable control adjustment to a millionth of an ohm or less range and visitors can perceive the sonic difference. Kinda backs up my parallel wires conclusions above. Could also mention 0,5mm rotation of speakers.

If a speaker is that critical at 170hz, imagine how sensitive the ear is at 4khz.

I like to keep the crossover as simple as possible, minimal slopes, minimal parts, for flat response, dynamics, sound stage, naturalness, which is difficult with the poor quality capacitors in the components and crossovers these days. Whenever I see
sharp resonances, even if out of band, I avoid it.

I have not found a speaker that I like, and I have auditioned plenty, up to $28k, pricey. After all these decades, that is why I designed my own test speakers.

cheers

steve
 
« Last Edit: August 26, 2020, 09:45:16 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (retired, owner, SAS Audio Labs)
"V" Very Low Capacitance ICs, 40pf 1 meter
SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Tube Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio Labs 25 W Triode Reference Monoblocks
2 way test Spkrs, 28 - 20khz  -3db (28hz)

Online doug s.

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2020, 09:14:24 AM »
hi steve,

while i haven't heard mr blume's implementation of the accuton drivers, i have heard them in other speakers, and they sound damned nice, imo.  and considering my experience i've had w/the coincident victory's, and the almost universal raves from reviewers and customers alike, regarding all his products, i can't imagine a proper implementation of the accuton midrange and tweeter wouldn't be outstanding.  and coincident does it with a 1st order x-over using only one cap and two inductors.  according to mr blume, he can do this due to the synergy of the accuton midrange and tweeter, and that you cannot tell it isn't a single driver.  the accuton midrange is flat to 6khz; i'm sure he would have crossed it over higher if he felt it sounded better.

here's what coincident says about its x-over implementation w/these two drivers:
"As with all Coincident speakers, first order crossovers (which are the purest and preserve phase coherency) are used with only the finest components, matched to within 1%, all hardwired with lead to lead construction (eschewing the use of unnecessary wires or connectors). The signal path contains only one capacitor (Mundorf – The most transparent cap for the purpose) and two inductors (proprietary 10 AWG OFC Litz - one for the midrange and one for the bass). That is it. Elegant simplicity but as Einstein remarked- not too simple. This crossover is the most transparent, unobtrusive in existence. In bypass tests, its presence is virtually undetectable."

don't get me wrong; i think it's great that you're designing your own speakers.  which is why i suggested the accutons.

doug

Offline steve

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2020, 11:58:58 AM »
hi steve,

while i haven't heard mr blume's implementation of the accuton drivers, i have heard them in other speakers, and they sound damned nice, imo.  and considering my experience i've had w/the coincident victory's, and the almost universal raves from reviewers and customers alike, regarding all his products, i can't imagine a proper implementation of the accuton midrange and tweeter wouldn't be outstanding.  and coincident does it with a 1st order x-over using only one cap and two inductors.  according to mr blume, he can do this due to the synergy of the accuton midrange and tweeter, and that you cannot tell it isn't a single driver.  the accuton midrange is flat to 6khz; i'm sure he would have crossed it over higher if he felt it sounded better.

here's what coincident says about its x-over implementation w/these two drivers:
"As with all Coincident speakers, first order crossovers (which are the purest and preserve phase coherency) are used with only the finest components, matched to within 1%, all hardwired with lead to lead construction (eschewing the use of unnecessary wires or connectors). The signal path contains only one capacitor (Mundorf – The most transparent cap for the purpose) and two inductors (proprietary 10 AWG OFC Litz - one for the midrange and one for the bass). That is it. Elegant simplicity but as Einstein remarked- not too simple. This crossover is the most transparent, unobtrusive in existence. In bypass tests, its presence is virtually undetectable."

don't get me wrong; i think it's great that you're designing your own speakers.  which is why i suggested the accutons.

doug

Don't get me wrong Doug, I really appreciate the suggestions and thoughtfulness. I think I have heard of Accuton, but never
checked them out.

It is just that I am extremely picky when it comes to drivers, and I almost always go with the flattest response. Yes, there are other parameters such as cone material, the ts and Xmax values etc that I also take into account.

Past this point is more for newbies, not at Doug.

For instance, Qts is all important for me when it comes to woofers for my test speaker. An Fs of 20hz with a Qts of .2 is not what I am looking for when I want response to 20hz. I want accurate and tight response even with a tube amp.

Interestingly, two amplifiers can have a damping factor of 10, yet one will "sound" tight bass while the other will have flabby bass.

I went with the old tried and tested big box because it just sounds better than all these new concept types using
the above parameters (Fs 20 and Qts of .2). One of the comments I receive is how in the world did I get such taut and
natural sounding bass (both electric and double bass). Proper speaker design and proper amplifier design.
I realize that many folks do not like large 4.5 cubic foot cabinets. But I find it yields the best bass response. (Even with a 12"
woofer, the Xmas, cone movement, limits the spl of deep bass.)

I don't know which midrange or tweeter is used in a particular design.
But here is the response of a 2" Accuton Cell C51-6-286 2" Ceramic Dome Midrangemidrange driver.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-2-midrange/accuton-cell-c51-6-286-2-ceramic-dome-midrange/

Below is the FR plot. Using a 1st order, 6db/octave crossover at 4khz is begging for problems. There is
going to be a problem due to the rise above 10khz. My system would easily expose the problem.
A special low pass filter is needed above 10khz or so. But that is more parts which will also influence the purity.
One could also use a 4th order, but again too many parts for me.

Anyway, that is my rant for now.

Cheers and thanks for thinking of me Doug. I do appreciate your thoughtfulness.

steve
« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 12:25:50 PM by steve »
Steve Sammet (retired, owner, SAS Audio Labs)
"V" Very Low Capacitance ICs, 40pf 1 meter
SAS Audio Labs Test Phono Stage
SAS Audio 11A Tube Reference Preamplifier
SAS Audio Labs 25 W Triode Reference Monoblocks
2 way test Spkrs, 28 - 20khz  -3db (28hz)

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: I think my System is finally finished
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2020, 02:31:28 PM »
That out of band undamped resonance has been the flaw with all of the drivers I've seen with very stiff cones.
According to distortion plots  I've seen of both the raw drivers and complete speaker systems the out band resonance point has a very large amount of 3rd order harmonic distortion associated with it. Even when this resonant peak is suppressed X dB with a 24db/oct. network the 3rd order distortion can be heard by many people and is very off putting.
 Sidebar, the dynamic life of the music takes a hit every time another component is added to the X over network in my opinion , which why I am proponent 1st order networks even though speakers designed this way usually come with off axis frequency response errors. The music sounds more alive to me and the off axis response errors can be ameliorated by appropriate room treatment.
Obviously YMMV.
Scotty