Music First TVC Ref. Edition

[rollo]

  Has anyone seen this new baby. A cool $15,000US. You get 6 trannies inside. They say it takes one week to wind each Trannie. From past experience with TVCs, the S&B trannies are the best to date IMO. The only issue is price. Certainly not bang for the buck. You can cheap out with others, they will come close but no cigar. There is more to a TVC than a trannie, some wires and an attenuator. 
      At $15,000 though I doubt many will seek it out. Just cannot substantiate the price. Too bad for the common man. I think their nuts but I'm sure someone will take the plunge. Love to hear it though.

rollo   

[richidoo]

Sounds cool. Did you see a picture rollo?

Bent will have their new TVC out soon. I'm looking forward to hearing that. I think I would prefer to buy from him, better features, value and service reputation. He tweaked the S&B trannies to what they are now, then started from scratch with his own design. I have to assume it will be SOTA from that technology.

[rollo]

John Chapman of Bent started it all with Thorsten Loesch. The Flex kit was a killer deal. The new trannies have been designed by John Chapman and made here in USA. Bent always had VG customer service as well as a fine product.
      There is a picture of the S&B on thier web site,but thats all. Just cannot justify the price of $15,000US for the thing. There are some excellent actives out there for that kind of money which are IMO more complex and costly to execute. Go figure.

rollo

[richidoo]

It will interesting to hear the new Bent units when they emerge. With the typical Bent remote control and processor functionality they will probably not be cheap, but still a good value. I would have bought one if they were available last Spring, but I am happy with my active tube pre.

[miklorsmith]

Along Carl's line of thought in the "most important piece" thread, I think a good TVC makes a lot of sense with the right amp and speakers.  In fact, I plan on getting one to run my Yamamoto SET amp.  With the Lamm preamp, I prefer the Signature 70.2s but I imagine the SETs by their raw, own selves (TVC pre) would be better than the Sigs.  I think a lot of tube amps would be very happy with a TVC.

On a personal note, I'm getting new speakers!  I ordered Definition 2s today.  If ya know anybody looking for a good deal on Def. Pros, lemme know.   

[Carlman]

Hi Guys,

It seems to me like a pretty expensive volume control when the following integrated amp has a frequency dependent feedback problem to muck the music?

I think it would be more advantageous to rid the system of the poor quality analog stage(s) in the player/dac, which also has the same feedback affliction as the integrated.

My .02 worth.

So, go with a TacT, keep everything digital from start to finish?  Sounds great, that I can attest.

[richidoo]

Congrats Mike! woohoo! How long til you get them? Will you review them?? 

Is the Tact volume control digital? I guess it must be. Processing effects without losing data is processor intensive, especially at 24 bit depth. Doing volume plus room correction duties must require a monster brain in there. In the short time I auditioned a stock Tact I could not discern any ill effects of passing through in bypass when compared to source by itself. The volume control and DAC is pretty clean.

[miklorsmith]

I'll be getting them just before Thanksgiving, if all the pieces fall into place.  It's weird, I love my speakers but the two lengthy reviews I've read say these are considerably better.  I don't have immediate plans to review them but that could change.  My queue is actually kind of full probably into Winter.  I could go on, but not to threadjack . . .

The TacT volume control is digital.  All processing is done at 24/96, a decision partially based on increasing bit-depth so the digital volume control is as transparent as possible.  I found their volume control to be completely transparent, used with the internal DACs or external.  I never liked the stock DACs and spent a fair amount of my time with the 2.0s, 2.2X, and 2.2XP trying to find a DAC that would eliminate digital haze.  The Altmann was close, but didn't work with the XP which is what led me to the Lessloss.

The LL was great and did get rid of the haze but ultimately I had the feeling that something was still amiss, though somewhat different in character and certainly reduced in amplitude.  I can say with certainty that my system is much better now than when I had TacT gear.  It's too bad, because the functionality of that stuff is brilliant.

I never played around with Aberdeen's modifications.  I was too chicken to put more money in the units, frankly.  In my shady opinion, I don't think parts mods could fix all of my concerns with the units which seemed to be related to the quantity of digital processing more than parts selection.

[steve]

Hi Guys,

It seems to me like a pretty expensive volume control when the following integrated amp has a frequency dependent feedback problem to muck the music?

I think it would be more advantageous to rid the system of the poor quality analog stage(s) in the player/dac, which also has the same feedback affliction as the integrated.

My .02 worth.

So, go with a TacT, keep everything digital from start to finish?  Sounds great, that I can attest.

Hi Carlman,

     Two quick questions. Have you noticed any interference with any tvs (channels 2-13), radios etc? Have you noticed any digititis with your all digital system?

Just curious and thanks.

[Carlman]

Back when I had the TacT, I found it 'hazy' as noted by Mike but only in stock form.  After doing every mod Anthony had available, the haze was gone and it did digital about as perfect as possible.  It still oversampled and I could hear that when directly compared to a non-oversampling DAC.  In my pursuit of insanely modifying the TacT, I eventually learned I was trying to rid the sound of oversampling.  I could've done a digital out to a non-OS DAC but that was before there were many options available... Plus, I wanted an analog stage for turntables.

Besides the actual correction, which is great, I can detect a slight difference to the macrodetails when the TacT's room correction is engaged.  It loses a half percent of detail to me.  It's worth it for the 5-10% improvement in overall improvement, though.

I never experienced any interference issues with the digital rig.  I haven't watched VHF television in many years, though.  My biggest headache was the learning curve of room correction itself and then figuring out how to use TacT's software to really help.  Once I got it, life was good.  I visited Lyngdorf at RMAF and they offer what appears to be the exact same equipment with a much better software package. (easier to use and more flexible) I would imagine Lyngdorf offers better dealer and customer support as well... but they may be more expensive, I don't know.

-C

[rollo]

Along Carl's line of thought in the "most important piece" thread, I think a good TVC makes a lot of sense with the right amp and speakers.  In fact, I plan on getting one to run my Yamamoto SET amp.  With the Lamm preamp, I prefer the Signature 70.2s but I imagine the SETs by their raw, own selves (TVC pre) would be better than the Sigs.  I think a lot of tube amps would be very happy with a TVC.

On a personal note, I'm getting new speakers!  I ordered Definition 2s today.  If ya know anybody looking for a good deal on Def. Pros, lemme know.   

   


          Congrats on new speakers Mike. A TVC with your SET amp could prove well. All you need is an Amp with A low input sensitivity of say 1 or less and a CDP with an output of 2V minimum.
           As you all know I was involved with the TVC thing for a while. My only reservation with all TVCs is the lack of weight and authority the actives have. They are also source dependent as the TVC will let you know the quality of your CDP. A tubed output CDP would be a good choice with a TVC. If you want see through sound with no coloration and plenty of detail it could be for you. Actually a good reviewers tool in many ways. The TVC is also a good way of providing a impedance match to the Amp.
          All in all the choice is subjective to your system synergy and taste. There are some good ones out there. Antique Sound Labs, Bent, Promitheus [that hurts], Consonance and Music First. From cheap to ultra expensive. They take about 450 Hrs to break in properly so no matter which one you try be patient.
         To date I am back to my active as I missed the organic feeling it provides. My TVC is being modified to hopefully pick up the weight, authority and organic quality of the sound that I prefer. If I can get the best of both worlds its a no brainer. The TVC is not for everyone.
         I am anxious to hear the SAS 11A Pre as it may offer the clarity of the TVC and the character I am looking for. We shall see.

rollo   

[steve]

"I never experienced any interference issues with the digital rig.  I haven't watched VHF television in many years, though."

Thanks. I was asking to see if there is still a problem with spurious radiation. This can cause problems with the rest of the system. Most notable symptom is hissing from the tweeters if using some analog equipment.

Thanks.

[rollo]

Hi Guys,

It seems to me like a pretty expensive volume control when the following integrated amp has a frequency dependent feedback problem to muck the music?

I think it would be more advantageous to rid the system of the poor quality analog stage(s) in the player/dac, which also has the same feedback affliction as the integrated.

My .02 worth.

 

Steve didn't understand the part about intergrated amp. As far as ridding the DAC or CDP of the analog stage was something I was trying to accomplish in my short stint as a manf. Unfortunately we did not get to that stage.
    I strongly believe the analog stages are the weakest link and redundant in the signal path. Why not just use balanced output transformers instead. Then feed direct to Amp. Clean and simple.
    A TVC can be Nirvana IMO if executed correctly. Source must have a 2V or better output. The Amp requires a low say below [1] input sensitivity. There are a few companies who have good trannies but the execution is lacking in the total design IMO. My only problem with the TVCs for me is the lack of weight and authority of the best actives. The S&B trannies when implemented properly provide that weight and autrhority. The see through quality and detail can be scary real. As with all things audio the TVC is not for all systems but when all is synergized hold on its coming.
    I am in the process of modifing the TVC. All that will remain is the original trannies. A dual box with handmade attenuators and all copper wiring and RCAs. The enclosure will be wood with Ebony at strategic locations to tame the resonance. Of course a few tricks I cannot mention yet. A new trannie based on a exotic core is in the works as well.

rollo

[richidoo]

Good luck with your project rollo. You have proven that you can stir up enthusiasm. Now all you need is a product and mfg channel that you can trust longterm. Your own self is the best option there.  
Rich

[mdconnelly]

Just to comment on the earlier Tact thread... Since I'm now the proud owner of Carl's fully modded Tact... I can totally vouch for what the Aberdeen mods did for this unit.   I have since added an AtoD card to support my phono pre.   When I tried it with the stock card, I didn't like it at all.   Hazy is only one of the not-so-kind comments I had.  Since vinyl is still big for me, I had to decide whether to unload the Tact or get Anthony @ Aberdeen to mod the AtoD card as well.   Long story short, getting it modded was one of the *smartest* decisions I've made.   Put my analog rig back on top where it belongs with the great benefit of room correction.  (of course, my EE Minimax phono helped it along in an equally big way).