Author Topic: Its the source of course  (Read 11109 times)

Offline rollo

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Re: Its the source of course
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2007, 09:06:05 AM »
     Last evening I thought why not try an experiment. With the Lector CDP as source [A] and Pipedreams as the speakers [A] I played several CDs. Sounded as expected. Very good. Then I changed to a Sony DVD NS775V as the source. Clearly not in the same leauge. The highs were bright and crisp [metallic]. The bass was good. Overall soundstage was smaller. Tonality overall was thin and bright. Digititus.
     Now enter 2 sets of speakers. Omega single driver 50 Hz -18000Hz [A] and Heco Horn 3 way 28Hz-20,000Hz. Amplification was constant as well as Preamp and cabling [ Consonance Cyber 211 Amp and Loesch and Weisner Preamp, Tara decade Ic to Amp from Pre, Harmonix Golden ratio from CDp to Pre, Omega Mikro Active Spkr. cables, Omega Mikro active powercords] ].
     First up was the Omega with Sony CDP. Still bright and thin. No emotional impact. No bass, connected Sub. Bass was in the house. Quite good bass actualy.  Had to turn it off though after about 10 minutes of continuous listening. Digititus you know. Now enter the Lector with Omegas. Very good tonality overall. Bass was limited  below 50Hz, reconnected the Sunfire Sub and that weakness was gone. Limited soundstage size compared to Pipes. Great clarity. Satisfying emotional impact. Quite open with VG dynamics. Now the Heco Horns. With Sony not as thin, still a tad bright, great midrange and VG bass [ no sub req.]. Ok sound for casual listening. Still not there.   Enter the Lector. Authoritative and rich with extended sweet highs. Larger soundstage with VG depth.  Not bright or thin in any way, almost just right. Could listen all day long. No fatiuge. No Digititus here. Smooth as silk. Very natural.
      So in a nutshell the source appeared to make the biggest difference in this experiment. With the Lector, no fatiuge, no Digititus, no thin or bright highs. Nada. The Sony with every speaker was the weak link. The Lector with each speaker was an improvement in sound. Not the case with the Sony. Same as with the Pipedreams. The Lector was clearly superior in every way. Did the Sony sound better with the Pipedreams than either the Omega or Heco Horn? No the bright and thin crisp presentation was present with every speaker.   
      Now don't shoot me for the results. Try it yourself. Just be fair. I am not trying to be confrontational here. Just saying IMO the source has more impact on the listening experience than the speaker. The speaker when better will enhance the benifit of a good source.

rollo
       
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miklorsmith

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Re: Its the source of course
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2007, 09:23:46 AM »
Come to think of it, I could do something like this.  I have some Hemp drivers in BR cabinets that are certainly not to the Definitions' front arrays.  I have some very nice front ends and also an OLD Technics CD player and a CHEAP DVD player to try.  I could keep the same (good) pre and amp.

Hmmm . . . but my amps are going out to Vinnie for upgrading today.  This might have to wait for a bit.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Its the source of course
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2007, 12:56:38 PM »
The experiment rules over dogma...  great work rollo!

Bigfish8

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Re: Its the source of course
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2007, 01:44:00 PM »
     Last evening I thought why not try an experiment. With the Lector CDP as source [A] and Pipedreams as the speakers [A] I played several CDs. Sounded as expected. Very good. Then I changed to a Sony DVD NS775V as the source. Clearly not in the same leauge. The highs were bright and crisp [metallic]. The bass was good. Overall soundstage was smaller. Tonality overall was thin and bright. Digititus.
     Now enter 2 sets of speakers. Omega single driver 50 Hz -18000Hz [A] and Heco Horn 3 way 28Hz-20,000Hz. Amplification was constant as well as Preamp and cabling [ Consonance Cyber 211 Amp and Loesch and Weisner Preamp, Tara decade Ic to Amp from Pre, Harmonix Golden ratio from CDp to Pre, Omega Mikro Active Spkr. cables, Omega Mikro active powercords] ].
     First up was the Omega with Sony CDP. Still bright and thin. No emotional impact. No bass, connected Sub. Bass was in the house. Quite good bass actualy.  Had to turn it off though after about 10 minutes of continuous listening. Digititus you know. Now enter the Lector with Omegas. Very good tonality overall. Bass was limited  below 50Hz, reconnected the Sunfire Sub and that weakness was gone. Limited soundstage size compared to Pipes. Great clarity. Satisfying emotional impact. Quite open with VG dynamics. Now the Heco Horns. With Sony not as thin, still a tad bright, great midrange and VG bass [ no sub req.]. Ok sound for casual listening. Still not there.   Enter the Lector. Authoritative and rich with extended sweet highs. Larger soundstage with VG depth.  Not bright or thin in any way, almost just right. Could listen all day long. No fatiuge. No Digititus here. Smooth as silk. Very natural.
      So in a nutshell the source appeared to make the biggest difference in this experiment. With the Lector, no fatiuge, no Digititus, no thin or bright highs. Nada. The Sony with every speaker was the weak link. The Lector with each speaker was an improvement in sound. Not the case with the Sony. Same as with the Pipedreams. The Lector was clearly superior in every way. Did the Sony sound better with the Pipedreams than either the Omega or Heco Horn? No the bright and thin crisp presentation was present with every speaker.   
      Now don't shoot me for the results. Try it yourself. Just be fair. I am not trying to be confrontational here. Just saying IMO the source has more impact on the listening experience than the speaker. The speaker when better will enhance the benifit of a good source.

rollo
       

Rollo:

I have read your post three times.  What I gather from the results is what I would expect and correct me if I am misunderstanding (which would not be a surprise).  Your information indicates that a good source is superior to a cheaper source, regardless of the speakers. The better source sounds better on three pairs of speakers than does a cheap source.  I will agree with you that source is one of the most important pieces of gear but I don't understand how your experiment rules the source to be more important than the speakers. 

Thanks,

Ken

Offline Carlman

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Re: Its the source of course
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2007, 04:34:16 PM »
I too have been experimenting with some gear... We recently moved into a new house and I didn't want to unpack/setup the big Piega's.  So, I bought a pair of Era Design 5's, put them on some stands and spread out my system on a cabinet.  I connected my usual source, the Scott Nixon tube DAC.  I didn't setup my usual PC so I have it fed by the digital out of the SB3 (with Black Sand's cryo treatment upgrade). 

I was using the Musical Fidelity X-150 integrated as my amp and pre.  I wasn't in love with the sound plus I had nowhere to safely store the McIntosh 402 amp or 220 preamp.  So, I hooked them up in place of the X-150.  Wow, holy cow.... super-mega-fabulous improvement in every way.  It went from dull and lifeless to detail rich and enveloping. 

What's it mean?  Nice electronics in front of a $900 pair of speakers can make me smile... big time!  ... And what have I learned from this?  The amp is actually a pretty key piece.... juice is good.  I can't tell you much more at this point... Getting the time to do the experiment and write about it was tough time to come by lately... Good discussion...

-C
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Offline miniminim

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Re: Its the source of course
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2007, 05:39:48 PM »
I like richidoo's logic, that when doing a complete system overhaul or starting from scratch buying the speakers first makes the biggest improvement right off the bat.
The logical sequence would then seem to me to be to work backwards step by step to the source, so the variables are always upstream.
I have held this as the only rational way of doing things, keeping in mind the notion of working with the most revealing speaker at the outset to make all the other choices easier and more meaningful, but just today, I saw the logic in the reverse way of doing it.
I was pondering Carlman's reasoning about why to start with the source and came to the conclusion that it could work, too, but only if you go step by step through the system. That is source, preamp, amp and speakers, or the same but with wire chosen at the same time and in the same sequence.

What would seem to have much less chance of working, though is to start anywhere but the beginning or end of the system, e.g. to start with pre or amp.

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: Its the source of course
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2007, 10:42:48 PM »
Ivor Tiefenbrun  the founder of Linn Sondek first espoused the theory that source was most important part of chain over 30 years ago.
I have seen this demonstrated to my satisfaction repeatedly over the years. If you start with a flawed non-linear source you wind up not asking enough of the components down stream. This can lead to putting into
the system a component downstream from the source with more inaccuracies. When you get to the end of chain you may have a system that has any number of problems from too much bass,aggressive highs,
no depth,and the list goes on and on.
  If you start at end the with loudspeakers you will probably chose speakers that sound good with your present system. You have basically decided to evaluate all of your future purchases with the component in the chain that has the most distortion. By doing this you have purchased something that compensates for inaccuracies up stream from it. When you finally start moving upstream all of your choices will be based on what ever the loudspeaker did to the information you gave to it.
If the goal is to assemble a system that presents more information with higher fidelity you have to start
with the most information possible. To state the obvious information not present at the beginning cannot be recovered somewhere down stream after damage is done.
Scotty

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« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 10:44:56 PM by _Scotty_ »

Offline miniminim

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Re: Its the source of course
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2007, 12:33:57 AM »
I believe Ivor made a few meaningful observations and upset some long held notions when he first hit the scene in around .....1971, was it?

I think his most important notion was the importance of reducing analog timing errors like wow and flutter an order of magnitude lower than had previously been thought to be necessary - and being able to demonstrate the significance by the relatively unusual, for the time, technique of relatively (2 hours or so) long exposure to the DUT (his turntable) followed by quick change to the control in which wow and flutter was now perceptible where it had not been before acclimatization to the new "norm".

I feel many of his other "rules" were as much about effective selling practices favoring his product. At first he marketed only turntables, so it was convenient that this be the most important item in the reproduction chain, and in some ways it could be argued that it was - at least until CDs, then for all their flaws at least there was suddenly NO wow and flutter and the source argument suddenly became much less convincing.

But Ivor was creating something akin to a religion, it seems to me. Adherents would have to suffer a little for their faith. Sticker shock created the requisite sobriety. There were rituals. Thou shalt not have more than one speaker pair in the demo room. Thou shalt have none other than Linn branded cartridges, arms, turntables, CD players, preamplifiers, amplifiers (one for each driver) and speakers. Thou shouldst upgrade thine turntable with the latest improvement, and everything shall have a "k" in it!

To me, Linn turntables are somewhat reasonably priced, but everything else in the Linn line now and in the past has consistently been at least twice over-price. Linn speakers have been hideously over-priced, almost always, and seldom better than slightly above average.

Sorry, I stopped respecting Ivor about 25 years ago.

My indoctrination, though, was so nearly complete that it was not until I did a really careful re-think about 20 years ago that I came to the conclusion that the old-timers were right - nothing is as important as the speaker, followed very closely by the acoustic environment. Next, the power amp, next the preamp and DAC, if separate, and (blasphemy of blasphemies) finally, the source!

However do not, as you seem to, _Scotty_, think I advocate starting by finding the speaker that sounds best on the end of your existing chain of components. No, I mean find the best speaker you can afford, judged on much better equipment than you have, in an acoustically superior environment if possible. If you must, go by the word of someone whose taste you know and whose judgment you trust.

Unless you enjoy the constant process of system evolution and change, and many do, the object is to get a great sound and live with it for as long as possible, so you can forget it and get into the music.

As a recording and mastering engineer acquaintance says:

"If you notice the sound, it's wrong".
« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 12:42:00 AM by miniminim »

Offline Bunky

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Re: Its the source of course
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2007, 03:11:49 AM »
Having good loudspeakers may allow you to get the most out of even a mediocre source.I find in my experience that the Amplifier/Preamplifiers are just as important as a good source and a good pair of loudspeakers. you can spend lots of money and if you dont have synergy between the components it will be frustrating.everything matters!....WCW III
Remember, information is not knowledge; knowledge is not wisdom; wisdom is not truth; truth is not beauty; beauty is not love; love is not music; music is the best.
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WEEZ

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Re: Its the source of course
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2007, 06:11:28 AM »
miniminim,

I like the quote, "If you notice the sound, it's wrong".

I have found that to be true way more often than not. Thanks for that one...

WEEZ

Offline bpape

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Re: Its the source of course
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2007, 07:23:46 AM »
Having good loudspeakers may allow you to get the most out of even a mediocre source.I find in my experience that the Amplifier/Preamplifiers are just as important as a good source and a good pair of loudspeakers. you can spend lots of money and if you dont have synergy between the components it will be frustrating.everything matters!....WCW III

IMO, the source and the speakers are the most important.  If the source isn't right, you can only get so far as you're amplifying and converting a sub-par signal.  If the speakers aren't right, no matter what you feed them with, they'll only do so much.  That said, over the years, I've personally found that I'd rather have middle of the road speakers fed with a good source and an amp that has the power and control to get the best from them rather than a really nice set of speakers fed by a sub-par source and average electronics.

Bryan
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Bigfish8

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Re: Its the source of course
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2007, 08:52:35 AM »
Guys:

If you have read the previous posts to this thread then you know that I believe the speakers are the most critical choice one has to make for a system.  However, while I believe it to be true since I have received the Timepieces all of my upgrades have been to improve the Source and I still want to further upgrade it (power supply and mod the Buffer).  Since I have decided to pursue this hobby I have formed an opinion that people tend to find a pair of speakers they like and upgrade components to maximize the sound produced from those speakers. 

Recently at the G2G at Rich's I was really surprised to hear the impact of different sources, different DACs and different SCs have on the sound produced from speakers.  What this experience clearly demonstrated is that each link in the audio chain definitely has an impact on what you hear from a system. 

I will end by asking a question:  Does anyone involved in this hobby ever get satisfied that their system is as good as they can make it sound?

Ken

jrebman

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Re: Its the source of course
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2007, 09:19:16 AM »
I have had some very fine sources that sounded like hell when the speaker and speaker/amp mix was wrong.  I still think in my experience the hardest thing to get right is the power amp/speaker synergy, and how that works with your room.  So, my heuristic is to get the best speakers you can, but stil allowing enough for an amp that really works well with them for your room, then put the rest into the best source you can, and then keep looking to the source as the place to upgrade from.

I agree with miniminim's take on the whole thing -- and way back when I was a big Linn fan too, though never had the money to buy in.  Then at RMAF 2004, I have to say the Linn room was the one I had to run screaming from, and I didn't even know what it was until I was outside and asked "What was that??!"  Then I found out the price tag and just shook my head.

Anyway, my thinking is that whatever approach works best for you, is by definition, best for you, and in my case, getting the amp/speaker/room synergy has always proven to be the most difficult task.

-- Jim

Offline Rocket

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Re: Its the source of course
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2007, 02:54:09 AM »
Hi Guys,

Bigfish8, wow for a newbie you seem to be heading in the right direction.  My preference is as follows:

1.  Speakers; build you system around a good quality pair.
2.  Amplifiers
3.  Source
4.  Preamp

At this stage I haven't experimented with good quality cables as I'm always upgrading my components.  I current use axon speaker cable and bolder interconnects in my sytem.

Regards

Rod

Offline steve

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Re: Its the source of course
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2007, 05:51:50 AM »
I pretty much agree with Rollo, but in My particular case, I would say the preamp/ics (they have to handle small signals as well), then souce/amp/speaker combo. This procedure eliminates several variables in the system, making  my job of matching the source/amp/speaker that much easier.*

(Disclosure: I am a manufacturer of preamps.)

I think improving the source is Rollo's point and I think my procedure will help in this endeavor.

*As a side point that may be helpful pertaining to the quality of the source; I performed a complete bypass of the analog gainstage(s) in an old Rotel player I own (comes standard with blackgates throughout). (I do not do player mods.)

What an improvement in sound. If there is any digitalis, it is very little. However, I still think higher sampling might improve the sound even more. (And for years I really hated the sound of cds and players.) Another way of thinking is in terms of adding a '$40.00' preamplifier (probable analog section parts costs in a player) to a 2+ grand system.

Even with a tube gainstage, there just is not enough physical room to do it right,.

Hope this is helpful.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2007, 09:07:26 PM by steve »
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