Too much tweeter in the music,

[richidoo]

Since the tweeter and mid are laterally offset, there is an opportunity to mess with the time alignment, and thus the phase alignment through the crossover band, which does usually reach up into the presence band to some degree, depending on the slope of the mid's low pass. The manual says toe angle should be zero, baffle is normal (perpendicular) to listener position. From there, you can toe the speakers in or out to effect a tone control via additive and destructive phasing through the crossover band.

http://www.nolaspeakers.com/products/viperII_b.php
http://www.nolaspeakers.com/products/ViperConnection.html

[Werd]

I do prefer to have them toed-in at an angle that crosses the tweeters behind me. I also like to be close to the speakers wit the tweeters on the outside. I think I need to get some mics and see what is happening at my sitting spot like what Scotty pointed out.

Btw my complaint blankets every speaker I've heard to date and what the tweeters do. I am not sure I like the harmonics reaching up into the tweeter band and really only only instruments being amplified out the tweeter is my point. I'm not sure though.

[richidoo]

I think you are sitting too close. The tweeters need more distance to balance with the midranges. The usual distance for floorstand hifi speakers is 10 feet. If you want to sit closer, you need to turn down the tweeters. Small wavelengths attenuate more over a distance than longer wavelengths. The speaker is designed for a specific litening distance. Sit closer and HF is too loud.

Also, because of the lateral offset b/t mid & tweet, the toe that you are adding will cause horizontal lobing which will accentuate and attenuate different portions of the presence band which will cause listening fatigue. A 1/2" change in tweeter:midrange distance to you will make a 90degree phase shift at 5kHz (2" wavelength.) That will be very audible in that range. That's why most speakers have the mid and tweet vertically aligned to prevent horizontal lovbong lobing. 

Try to sit 10' away and point them straight at you, see how you like it.

As for your blanket complaint, either you are sitting too close to all the speakers you try, or you are like me and others who prefer softer tweeter than what is offered in modern speaker designs nowadays. Learning to tweak the tweeter is valuable skill. twss

Bryston amps do something to tame HF: it's the sound of too high negative feedback to lower distortion and attract pro audio customers. I hate it, but maybe you are used to the Bryston sound and you miss the feeling of tame tweeter since you got a different amp?

[jimbones]

More Cow Bell!!

[rpf]

I agree that too many speakers have too much treble; including almost all that use metal drivers and many that do not.

I also have speakers that have the tweeters offset from the mid-range drivers but mine are recommended to be used with the tweeters on the outside, which I find much preferable. The soundstage is wider, the image far more stable and the tonality is far more accurate in this configuration.

My speakers (Aural Acoustics) are also time aligned and phase coherent, with stepped baffles, which I've always found helps tame the highs. I've always liked the resulting sound whether in Aurals, Vandersteens, Meadowlarks, or Thiels (minus the metal drivers in some of them).

Now if I could only afford Vandy 5A Carbons.   

[rollo]

  IMO the quality of most tweeters are not up to the rest of the design.
   Accuracy is key to good sound. Accuracy does not mean any thing added or subtracted.
   We do not know on a particular recording if the high frequencies are tilted up do we ?
    Detail IMO has gotten out of control. Too much treble as too much bass as Rich alluded to will put ones sound out of balance.
    Try Omega single driver speakers or one with a Heil Air motion tweeter. Ribbon tweeters and Heil are my favorites. Raven is quite good but difficult to work with with limitations in power handling.
   No worry though as you get older you will not hear all that the tweeter does.
    So all you hot tweeters that are crisp, bright or hard just go away.


charles

[jimbones]

Yes charles. Many very expensive speakers are using cheap drivers.

[rpf]

 IMO the quality of most tweeters are not up to the rest of the design.
   Accuracy is key to good sound. Accuracy does not mean any thing added or subtracted.
   We do not know on a particular recording if the high frequencies are tilted up do we ?
    Detail IMO has gotten out of control. Too much treble as too much bass as Rich alluded to will put ones sound out of balance.
    Try Omega single driver speakers or one with a Heil Air motion tweeter. Ribbon tweeters and Heil are my favorites. Raven is quite good but difficult to work with with limitations in power handling.
   No worry though as you get older you will not hear all that the tweeter does.
    So all you hot tweeters that are crisp, bright or hard just go away.


charles

Yeah, the Heil Air Motion tweeter that I heard on a cheap pair of Martin Logans (poor speakers overall) made the tweeter on an expensive pair of Focal monitors sound broken. I've never heard any tweeter - ribbon, dome, whatever - sound so natural.

[drewshifi]

Reading all of this, I am surprised and disappointed.  HIFI is hearing what is on the recording.  If you don't like the recording, fine, thats your choice, and you are free to disagree with the recording and mastsering engineers. 

To say you should not hear distinct low bass or hi treble (detracting from music in the midrange) is not a hi fidelity philosophy. That is strictly roll your own.  Get a digital equalizer and figure out what part of the recording you want to remove, and be happy.

Or look for recordings that fit your idea of what sounds good.

For the original poster, I agree.  Many new speaker designs feature hot tweeters and top down voicing (lacking bass weight).  I hear this from top spkrs like Magico and Revel, and wouldnt want em in my house.

[jimbones]

 IMO the quality of most tweeters are not up to the rest of the design.
   Accuracy is key to good sound. Accuracy does not mean any thing added or subtracted.
   We do not know on a particular recording if the high frequencies are tilted up do we ?
    Detail IMO has gotten out of control. Too much treble as too much bass as Rich alluded to will put ones sound out of balance.
    Try Omega single driver speakers or one with a Heil Air motion tweeter. Ribbon tweeters and Heil are my favorites. Raven is quite good but difficult to work with with limitations in power handling.
   No worry though as you get older you will not hear all that the tweeter does.
    So all you hot tweeters that are crisp, bright or hard just go away.


charles

Yeah, the Heil Air Motion tweeter that I heard on a cheap pair of Martin Logans (poor speakers overall) made the tweeter on an expensive pair of Focal monitors sound broken. I've never heard any tweeter - ribbon, dome, whatever - sound so natural.

Rob, I agree that the air motion tweeter is sweet. In fact I am thinking of using the Air Stiction tweeter in my next upgrade.

[Werd]

I do prefer to have them toed-in at an angle that crosses the tweeters behind me. I also like to be close to the speakers wit the tweeters on the outside. I think I need to get some mics and see what is happening at my sitting spot like what Scotty pointed out.

Btw my complaint blankets every speaker I've heard to date and what the tweeters do. I am not sure I like the harmonics reaching up into the tweeter band and really only only instruments being amplified out the tweeter is my point. I'm not sure though.

try toeing the speakers in so that the axis crosses a couple feet in front of your listening position.  you might like what it does for the soundstaging, if nothing else.  and this set-up will also give a wider "sweet spot".

in general, tho, i must disagree w/your statement regarding tweeters/speakers.  while i have heard a few speakers that are too hot for my taste, i rarely have found that most tweeters are too hot on most speakers.  for example - i have never liked the sound of wilson audio speakers - too hot, among other things.  wilson's use focal tweeters.  but, the focal tweeters sound great in focal's own line, and in a pair of meret re monitors that i own.

so, if you think most tweeters sound too hot in most speakers, it could be your system's balance, your room's acoustic, or if you hear like this in other rooms/with other systems, then maybe it's your hearing.  you might even consider having an audiologist run tests on your hearing to see if there might be any clues there...

doug s.

I don't like how tweeters load the soundstage. It's not natural and it's completely hi if. All the natural organic qualities are in the mids. Tweeters are a neccessary evil. I think they need to be cut off from any harmonics driving the tweeter range up from the mids. Infact get rid of that. I just what a cymbal or a flute or a may be voice that moves up into the tweeter.  I am probably talking about crossovers.

Tweeters should be like sub woofers. Speakers should be engineered  with out tweeters. Then buy the tweeter later and fix it some where. Or here is your mains speakers and here are your tweeters. Different speaker box like a sub.

[Werd]

I do prefer to have them toed-in at an angle that crosses the tweeters behind me. I also like to be close to the speakers wit the tweeters on the outside. I think I need to get some mics and see what is happening at my sitting spot like what Scotty pointed out.

Btw my complaint blankets every speaker I've heard to date and what the tweeters do. I am not sure I like the harmonics reaching up into the tweeter band and really only only instruments being amplified out the tweeter is my point. I'm not sure though.

try toeing the speakers in so that the axis crosses a couple feet in front of your listening position.  you might like what it does for the soundstaging, if nothing else.  and this set-up will also give a wider "sweet spot".

in general, tho, i must disagree w/your statement regarding tweeters/speakers.  while i have heard a few speakers that are too hot for my taste, i rarely have found that most tweeters are too hot on most speakers.  for example - i have never liked the sound of wilson audio speakers - too hot, among other things.  wilson's use focal tweeters.  but, the focal tweeters sound great in focal's own line, and in a pair of meret re monitors that i own.

so, if you think most tweeters sound too hot in most speakers, it could be your system's balance, your room's acoustic, or if you hear like this in other rooms/with other systems, then maybe it's your hearing.  you might even consider having an audiologist run tests on your hearing to see if there might be any clues there...

doug s.

I've tried all the toeing with speakers. That is good advice because it's help me look at the variables between tweeters in or out. If I am toeing infront of me with these open baffles I like the tweeters on the out side. Straight ahead no toe in I like the tweeter on the inside. I still like sitting really close to the speakers. Like right in the soundstage. Not sitting away from the sound stage and appling more volume to get it around me. I think that is a big mistake with audio - applying  more volume to get to get the sound stage around you. Room treatment paneling can help but I would rather not since I think they do more damage than good

[Werd]

I realized this when I lost a tweeter in my Acoustic Zens. When I sent it in I had a speaker with only 1 tweeter. I was like "I can maybe make this work" and I did. It wasn't easy but i used a mono preamp and went mono put the tweeter less speaker infront of me and used the speaker with the tweeter on the side pointing in. I never lost any info due to the mono.  Right there I realized there is too much tweeter in hifi.
IMO also this is the correct way to listen to mono. You get s soundstage and it opens up over the speaker infront of you. It's pretty funky and it's not easy but eventually you will hear the soundstage. Only because you want to listen in the middle like stereo and that is really really hard to deactivate.

[rollo]

  Sounds to me your sound is not linear. If the tweeter stands out maybe the bass is to light. Balance is key here.
   Lets say the tweeter is of good design. Adding subs at improper volume or crossover point will do two things. Either  forward midrange and tilted up treble [ Bass crossed over to low or volume to low ] Or recessed mids and little treble [ Bass volume to high or crossover point to high ].
   Measure and measure again until no peaks no bottoms. A spectrum analyzer is your friend. Pro-Tools is a wonderful app. Get cracking.


charles