Too much tweeter in the music,

[Werd]

Anybody else feel this way? It's been a nagging part of my audio experience for the last 2 or 3 years. I really think tweeters are invading the sound stage way to much.  When listening to speakers that use a tweeter vertically right above the midrange (which tend to be the most typical arrangement).  I find in stereo there's an over emphasis of high energy instruments.  I made reference to this before with a tweeter out  used only one tweeter in mono driving my Acoustic Zens.

I have Nola's Vipers that use a tweeter in 45 degrees alignment off the midrange. The typical setup is to have the Tweeter on the inside and the midrange on the outside. Lately I've reverse the speakers to sit the tweeter on the outside and midrange on the inside.
What I've got is more midrange push but with less treble energy. The cymbals tend to sit out side the the sweet spot. Which I actually think is a good place for them.  There is a lot of sweetspot cymbal work but it really has to be recorded that way to get in there and that's good. But what I like about it is the entire midrange signal isn't wrought with high energy treble. To me this is the way it is suppose to sound like. Anyone else have an opinion? There is no right or wrong but only what you like.

[jimbones]

Thats why I "roll my own". Tailor the music to your tastes. But yes, many speakers I hear are tilted up. And unfortunatley they don't even use good drivers.

[BobM]

If you look at the frequency range covered by the tweeter you will quickly see that most of what you are hearing from it is harmonics and "air". Most tweeter crossovers cut off at about 2000-2500Hz, which is the very top end of a piccolo or violin or cymbal. I would suggest that what you are hearing as too much top end is possibly excessive energy from your midrange.

[jimbones]

Bob, True, however you have to consider the XO and the frequencies outside the passband. For example, a tweeter with a first or second order HP will still have significant energy below the Fr

[_Scotty_]

I would get myself a calibrated microphone from Parts Express
or Cross·Spectrum Labs and download REW measurement software and see what the upper octaves measure like at your listening position. I would blame the speakers last and decisions made in the mastering process first. What type of music are you listening to that is problematic?
 In my experience excessive treble energy has been primarily due to the decisions made in mastering and secondarily room acoustics that are overly reverberant in the upper octaves. this is usually tameable with the addition of some diffusion and absorption. Lastly the system components can certainly exacerbate any problems that a recording may have, only a few years ago a majority of solid state gear could be very aggressive in the upper octaves and price was no guarantee that you would not have a problem. I recently heard a $$$$ line of gear which may have this sort of problem. So far every time I have heard this gear it has been like finger nails on a black board and the speakers used, be they Magico or Raidho haven't changed or reduced the problem.
My 2 cents for what its worth.
Scotty

[BobM]

maybe you need to tighten the screws back up
 

[jimbones]

Scotty, good point. When I was doing listening evals with my speaker it drove me nuts because the speakers would sound splendid on one recording and horrible on another. The goal is not to make everything sound good. The goal is to be faithful to the recording. So if I used a recording that was not so great I didn't sweat it.

BTW, nice cat.

[Brap]

Found this out also listening to several speakers before purchasing. Ended up with the Zu Druids which have very nice speaker placement and Ilike the efficiency & punch with my tube gear.

[richidoo]

The goal is not to make everything sound good. The goal is to be faithful to the recording.

I used to think that, back when I had a system that made everything sound good. Now I have a system that is accurate and I want to make everything sound good again.

Werd, attenuate the tweeter, and/or notch the presence band of the tweeter. You can do it yourself, and make any commercial hifi speaker sound like a musical speaker.

Treble and bass should be felt, not heard. If you can hear them, then they are distracting your attention from the midrange where the deep immersion happens which allows dopamine response. The hyper detail and punchy reflex ports of hifi are unnatural and distracting and can only offer adrenaline response and prevents the possibility of dopamine.

[James Edward]

I was going to start a topic on how I am bored now, because most everything sounds good. I'll take pleasure over 'accuracy' in this hobby.
I understand the goal of the absolute sound, but if it comes with wincing at every other recording, why waste my money?
I have a very un-audiophile approved system now:
Legacy Audio Focus SE (AMT tweeters)
Bryston 4BSST2 amp
Auralic Vega DAC
Dehavilland Ultraverve 3 preamp
Cambridge CXC transport
Mapleshade speaker wires
It sounds GREAT. The highs don't take my ears off, the lows have texture and weight, and the midrange is smooth as silk.
When the going gets loud, it's a visceral experience and sounds better than most live amplified shows.
I'll take tonality that pleases me over accuracy and detail.
Imaging? Pretty good but not great.
Soundstage depth and width? Pretty good but not great.
1st order crossovers are better for imaging and soundstage, but at the expense of a larger sweet spot and the ability to play loudly.
It really does come down to your preferences and thus your tradeoffs.

[jimbones]

You have a very nice system.  I'm not sure I would call it un audiophile.  I have plenty of great source material so I am not wincing at the sound of the stuff I am playing. 

[richidoo]

When I was researching buying Focus 2020, I remember some fool on Audiogon forum had previously posted that they were "the best rock speaker ever," and he meant it derogatorily, like it is only good for playing loud rock and they are not condoned by the audiophile elite as having the right shape, number of drivers, pedigree, etc.   I bought them after hearing them play jazz piano trio and string quartet and jazz big band and symphony orchestra. An all around speaker that sounded good on everything, especially great on big music that I love, I could listen for hours. I sold them in favor of audiophile approved hifi speakers which drove me nuts for two years until I finally dumped them. Good to know you're still digging the Focuses after half a year, James. They address the too much tweeter issue by notching out the presence band while maintaining the very high end for ambience. Big improvement over the old 2020.

[jimbones]

Rich. What's great about the notch filter it's like having your cake and eating it too. Lol.
.

[richidoo]

Rich. What's great about the notch filter it's like having your cake and eating it too. Lol.

There is a cost to using a traditional notch filter (cap, resistor and inductor in the signal path,) as all of these parts have an audible effect. But there are other ways to reduce presence range without adding parts, especially with a 5 way xo. Duddleston is very clever.

[BobM]

On another note, sometimes a tweeter will sound hard because of the quality of the crossover parts feeding it. Maybe looking at a higher quality cap and resistor might alleviate the problem?