Two and a half months later...

[StereoNut]

Hello all!

I have finally (two and a half months after the May Audio Syndrome meeting at my house) gotten around to spending some time with my system to evaluate it better.   

First a quick re-cap. My system had been configured as listed below in my signature line.  Normal stereo (one amp) set-up.

The purpose of the May meeting was to compare bi-amping to my original set-up.  The Bi-Amping was set up with my Moscode 600 Hybrid (tubes front end/Moscodes on the back end) powering (300 WPC into 8 ohms) my (top) mid/tweet cabinets with old MIT "Music Hose" cable and two Dayton monoblock subwoofer amps (900 WPC into 4 ohms) powering my (bottom) woofer cabinets with "nothing special" Monster cable home-brew speaker wires.

Pre-amp was my battery powered 12B4A tubed Dodd.I haven't listened to this Bi-Amped set up enough to really have a good grasp on what it sounds like.  Initially, I liked the clarity, dynamics and ease that the Daytons brought, but I felt like the system (with my CDP & DAC) sounds a bit too clean (if that's possible?) and lean,  Accurate, but almost "Hi-Fi clinical" to me.  Maybe my QED speaker cables (without Bi-Amping) were giving me a better synergy than the set up now with the MIT "Music Hose" that Tom lent me...???  I don't know, but I felt that something was missing!?!

Fast forward >>>  I re-evaluated my system this past week with a fellow Syndrome members help. 

*** Note: I removed one variable by nudging my right speaker over a little closer to my amp and putting my QED Silver Spiral speaker cable back in place.  No longer using the Music Hose cables. ***

1) Bi-amped: Same as before.  I liked the clarity, dynamics and ease that the Daytons brought, but I felt like the system (with my CDP & DAC) sounds a bit too clean (if that's possible?) and lean,  Accurate, but almost "Hi-Fi clinical" to me. Bass was a bit "thumpy", but if you dialed the Daytons down, the system got even leaner! My buddy agreed.

2) One Amp Stereo: Less Hi-Fi 'isn than Bi-Amp. Bass wasn't quite as articulate, but we lost the "thumpiness" (is that a word!?!  ) Sound was MUCH more cohesive.  No longer a gap between the bass and the mid-bass. Bi-amped set-up sounded like there was a poorly dialed in subwoofer in a sub/sat system vs. the one (Moscode) amp set up. Again, my buddy agreed.

3) One Amp Stereo (again) but with a Pre-amp change. We replaced the Dodd 12B4A battery powered pre with a Primaluna Prologue Premium pre-amp. (http://www.primaluna-usa.com/product-main/prologue-premium/pro-prem-pre) Wow! This is what I've been chasing ever since I heard Rob's (rpf) Rogue Cronus (?) Magnum Integrated in my system a year ago! Everything became more musical. More body and richness.  A more relaxed presentation, yet without losing any detail.  Is it as linear and un-colored as the Dodd...???  Absolutely NOT, but I like it better!  Once again, my buddy agreed.

Thanks!
SN

[rpf]

Hey Bill,

Glad to hear you found something relatively affordable to make such a large improvement to your system.

I will be getting back to NY sometime in the next month and I hope to be able to hook up with you and hear your system with the improvements you've made.

Best,
Rob

[Werd]

What amp (s) were using in position C?

[StereoNut]

What amp (s) were using in position C?

If by "C", you mean 3) it was just the Moscode 600. Same as 2)

The only set-up with the Moscode and the Daytons was set-up 1)

[StereoNut]

Hey Rob

Great to hear from you. Your "audio radar" must have picked up on my mentioning you in the start of this post!  I will be very happy to give you a listen when you're up to NY for a visit. Your Rogue was the " bug in my ear" while chasing system improvements this past year +

I think I have the best of it now... The power and dynamics from the Moscode and the rich and relaxed sound from the Primaluna.

Let me know when you're coming up

Bill

[Werd]

What amp (s) were using in position C?

If by "C", you mean 3) it was just the Moscode 600. Same as 2)

The only set-up with the Moscode and the Daytons was set-up 1)

Yes thanks I meant 3. I like that Prima gear. Or what ive seen of it.

[StereoNut]

Werd

I know a lot of guys grumble about the "Made in China" issue, but what "sold me"on taking a chance on this piece (besides the great price used) was what the insides of this Pre-amp looked like.

Point to point wiring. Very clean, neat and organized. (See pic.)

SN

[BobM]

It's funny you mention the sound being "too clean" vs. "more body and richness". My daughter recently blew up my vintage (but recapped) NAD 3155 integrated that I used to power my outdoor speakers (Niles 6.5). Now this is not expected to be a hi fidelity system, it's just for music outside while in the pool or hanging on the deck.

But the blown amp was recently replaced with an Onix SP3 tubed integrated. My wife (of the incredible ears) immediately said it sounds more musical now. There was a metallic-like sheen on the music before, with the NAD, that she didn't notice until it was gone. The sound is fuller and richer and can be played louder without her saying it was too sharp and shouty, like she did before.

I guess when it is right, it is just right!

[Emil]

Bill

Cant believe you had that preamp boxed up for over two months!

I'm worse than a kid at at Christmas when it comes to things like that

[StereoNut]

It's funny you mention the sound being "too clean" vs. "more body and richness". My daughter recently blew up my vintage (but recapped) NAD 3155 integrated that I used to power my outdoor speakers (Niles 6.5). Now this is not expected to be a hi fidelity system, it's just for music outside while in the pool or hanging on the deck.

But the blown amp was recently replaced with an Onix SP3 tubed integrated. My wife (of the incredible ears) immediately said it sounds more musical now. There was a metallic-like sheen on the music before, with the NAD, that she didn't notice until it was gone. The sound is fuller and richer and can be played louder without her saying it was too sharp and shouty, like she did before.

I guess when it is right, it is just right!

Absolutely, Bob.  The other factor is getting caught up in anticipation of things.  When I started planning an "agenda" for the May meeting at my house and decided on trying the Bi-amping, I expected the change to be for the better.  At first listen, I liked some of what I was hearing, but there were other changes with Bi-amping that I wasn't crazy about. It was very hard to trust my ears when the other Syndrome member who helped me set up this Bi-amp configuration was so ecstatic over the sound of the new (Bi-amped) set up.  (Disclaimer: the point here is NOT to "diss" my buddy who spent a good amount of time helping me with all of this for my club meeting.  He's a knowledgable guy and I value his opinions.)  The BIG difference in listening to each set up the other day was that it was done as an "evaluation mission".  It wasn't "how much better will this change make my system", it was "what do I really have here" and "how to I get the best out of it".  Maybe the "process of elimination" method works better than the "lets dive in head first" method!?!

[StereoNut]

Bill

Cant believe you had that preamp boxed up for over two months!

I'm worse than a kid at at Christmas when it comes to things like that

Real estate first, audio second!

[tmazz]

Bill

Cant believe you had that preamp boxed up for over two months!

I'm worse than a kid at at Christmas when it comes to things like that

I know what you mean, I am usually unpacking the boxes at stop lights on my way home from the store.   

[StereoNut]

Bill

Cant believe you had that preamp boxed up for over two months!

I'm worse than a kid at at Christmas when it comes to things like that

I know what you mean, I am usually unpacking the boxes at stop lights on my way home from the store.   

You made my day with that one, Tom!

[rollo]

  Happy is happy. You heard what you heard however puzzled as to the character of the Dodd preamp you described. Are the tubes RCA 12BH4 ? If so they are warm in character. I believe it is the source that is determining your sonic signature. The preamp used is then acting as a tone control.
    If the Rouge made you happy why did you not try a Rouge ? Bi-amping without a active crossover is self defeating. Especially with two different loads from the amps.
     The best combo I ever heard with VS speakers were Cary 805 mono blocks. The other SET Wytech 211 based amps.
       Keeping it simple with a speaker that has low bass without the need for a sub usually works better with one amp.
      IMO the silver cables are suspect. Usually lean by design. I would try VS speaker cable first then TWL. You may also try other digital cables as well as that cable can make or break your sound.
      The bottom line is that you like it. Have a glass of wine on the house.


charles
        
      

[rpf]

I agree with Charles about the cables, though, given what the VS speaker cables cost, just call Pete up for a set of his TWLs. They are really good. And for the price, a steal.

Silver cables, geesh.  

The other thing you might look into is the coupling caps in the Dodd. I don't remember which you have but a switch to the new Jupiter copper foils (if available yet in the size you need) might also take you where you want to go.