Author Topic: speaker cables  (Read 28221 times)

DaveC

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Re: speaker cables
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2014, 11:02:49 PM »
First, I never said anything about them using Neotech wire or not. This has NOTHING to do with Neotech at all. I want to make that very clear. They are only one of three companies licensed to produce upocc products.

The issue is with them using the OCC process without licensing it, which is a patent owned by Professor Ohno and possibly the university he was working at when he applied for the patent. Cabledyne is buying or manufacturing wire using a patented process and they aren't paying for it. That is thievery, plain and simple. They are liars because their claims about the quality of their wire is not possible at the price they are charging. UPOCC silver just costs more than what they are charging to manufacture, so it is extremely likely they are selling an inferior product vs the manufacturers that are actually paying to license the technology.

Also, you left out the fact that they state "High purity solid 99.9999% Monocrystal conductors", not just "similar to OCC".

I hope that makes it clear and obvious what I am trying to say, and I am not changing my opinion on the matter.


EDIT: I'd also like to point out that by stealing the OCC technology then using that savings to undercut the manufacturers who are licensing it they are directly stealing from those who are honest by selling their products. This is a problem across many industries and I it is not open for interpretation that this is downright thievery. Even worse though, are the cable companies who built their business buying from licensed manufacturers, then switched to fake/pirated OCC wire.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 11:13:18 PM by DaveC »

Offline rollo

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Re: speaker cables
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2014, 09:14:31 AM »
Well, I'm certainly not going to judge people on their choices, but I just want you to be aware you are supporting thieves and liars with your purchase from cabledyne.






[/quot

     I guess then any product from China is supporting child labor and underpaid workers. Not to mention the abuse of woman.
    I have had both Dave's speaker cable [ first run ] and TWL speaker cable .
    Used both in several systems and the character of each  Not bright per say but in direct comparison.  The TWL is neutral with gesthalt  and great tonality and very tight bass. Dave's were detailed, and lean a tad bright  with deep bass. 
    Each speaker cable has its place. However the TWL were consistent in every system. In three systems it was easy to tell.
      At the end of the day for me it is about the entire assembly of the cable not one part. yes the wire itself is a key factor but not everything. Dielectric, twisting and connector type play just as important a role.
    Construction technique such as polishing, cleaning and prepping wire aides in the final product. The type of connection soldered, crimped and material of such is key as well.
     In my experience as the "cable guy" in our club I will say that to date every silver based cable was lean. Every silver over copper was bright.
     Cables to try are TWL, Dave's, JPS Sc-3, Mapleshade active, Tara and Cardas.
     My personal favorites are TWL and JPS. Have not heard Dave's latest so not included in my comments only the first attempt.
    Remember this and take it to the bank. One size does not fit all. Mostly cable "A" will sound different in different systems. If it does not it is as neutral as neutral gets. If that floats one's boat go for it. If one is looking for color change gear not cables. Try all you can and LEARN the differences heard. You CAN change your sound with cables. Or you can enjoy the sonics of your gear with the most neutral cable you can hear.


charles
   


charles
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Offline jimbones

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Re: speaker cables
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2014, 10:00:29 AM »
Well said Tom. Basically it came down to a budget of a few hundred dollars and what can I get for that money. Being they have a good return policy, if I don't like them or think they are worth what I spent, back they go.

BTW, did some research and although Neotech uses a patented process to make the wire (which may in fact be superior), there are more ways to skin a cat and I see lots of other manufacturers claiming to manufacture high purity long/single crystal copper. Maybe it's not a lie but just not as good as the Neotech. Either way I stopped judging by advertising and let my ears tell me what I like.
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Offline tmazz

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Re: speaker cables
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2014, 10:32:10 AM »
Dave if they are in fact using actual OCC wire without pay royalties on the patent they you are correct in that they are stealing it. However my point is that they never said they were using OCC, just something that is "similar" to OCC. (and sorry, I used neotec and OCC interchangeably in my last post, by bad). The way I read it they are not claiming that they us genuine OCC technology, but are rather using slick verbiage to make people think that they have something that is just as good. My point is that while it may be misleading, it is not a lie per se. Over the opp marketing maybe, but not technically untruthful. And unless they are actually using OCC materials that have been obtained through some grey market source it is not thievery either.
Could one make a case that  making claims like that borders on dishonorable behavior, probably, but is simply does not in my opinion rise to the level of being a liar and a thief (which have very cut ad dry legal definitions) based on what I read in their marketing materials.
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Offline Hugh

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Re: speaker cables
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2014, 10:50:05 AM »
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Offline tmazz

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Re: speaker cables
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2014, 10:59:16 AM »
[quote author=DaveC tmazz, the only way to get ultra pure wire with no grain boundaries is to use the patented upocc technology. They blatantly stole Professor Ohno's patented OCC technology. It's as simple as that.
[/quote]

If they are in fact actualy using it, I totally agree with you. But they are very careful to only say that they are doing something similar to OCC,  they never claim anything as detailed as "ultra pure wire with no grain boundaries".
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
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• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline Hugh

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Re: speaker cables
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2014, 11:00:13 AM »
Just FYI.
Unless I know for a fact, I would not make any statements which may have legal ramifications.
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DaveC

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Re: speaker cables
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2014, 11:07:46 AM »

If they are in fact actualy using it, I totally agree with you. But they are very careful to only say that they are doing something similar to OCC,  they never claim anything as detailed as "ultra pure wire with no grain boundaries".


Yes, they do. They state "High purity solid 99.9999% Monocrystal conductors", not just "similar to OCC".

If it was just "similar to OCC" than I would agree with you, but they specify purity and no grain boundaries.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 11:30:36 AM by DaveC »

Offline tmazz

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Re: speaker cables
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2014, 11:24:21 AM »
I as a consumer (and a degreed engineer) took High purity solid 99.9999% Monocrystal conductors" and maketing gobbledygook and did not make the connectiondid not make the connection that it was equal to "ultra pure wire with no grain boundaries", but if you as a cable manufacturer are saying that it is, I will yield to your expertise.
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline Hugh

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Re: speaker cables
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2014, 11:29:34 AM »
:)
I as a consumer (and a degreed engineer) took High purity solid 99.9999% Monocrystal conductors" and maketing gobbledygook and did not make the connectiondid not make the connection that it was equal to "ultra pure wire with no grain boundaries", but if you as a cable manufacturer are saying that it is, I will yield to your expertise.
Hugh Nguyen
Angel City Audio
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DaveC

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Re: speaker cables
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2014, 11:51:23 AM »
I as a consumer (and a degreed engineer) took High purity solid 99.9999% Monocrystal conductors" and maketing gobbledygook and did not make the connectiondid not make the connection that it was equal to "ultra pure wire with no grain boundaries", but if you as a cable manufacturer are saying that it is, I will yield to your expertise.

The purity and lack of crystal boundaries are the defining characteristics of upocc wire.

there's lots of info and a patent to look at, so it's not surprising the process has been pirated, as I said there is no respect for intellectual property in China.

Offline jimbones

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Re: speaker cables
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2014, 12:10:48 PM »
Hugh, thanks for posting the link a very informative read.

Dave, You have access to information that us mere mortal consumers do not know about. Thanks for the information and education. I hope that I have good news to report and that it sounds nice. I really hate shopping  :x
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Offline Hugh

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Re: speaker cables
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2014, 12:21:48 PM »
Sure thing Jim. :)
Hugh, thanks for posting the link a very informative read.

Dave, You have access to information that us mere mortal consumers do not know about. Thanks for the information and education. I hope that I have good news to report and that it sounds nice. I really hate shopping  :x
Hugh Nguyen
Angel City Audio
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Offline Hugh

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Re: speaker cables
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2014, 12:22:16 PM »
This is getting interesting. :)

From Audiogon:
Here are the facts from Cabledyne founder Ed Bowman:

Cabledyne states on their product pages: "Cryo 6-nines purity solid monocrystal square wire: Continuous Directional Solidification process (similar to OCC) offers incredible detail and clarity." The keyword is "Similar" to OCC.

Link and info from their supplier: http://hnyoukwire.en.alibaba.com/company_profile.html

"Henan Youk Electronic Materials Co., Ltd. is the largest electronic material enterprise in mainland China, based in Youk Engineering Research Center. We offer Copper Bonding Wires for Semiconductor Devices, High Purity Single Crystal Copper (4N-7N) bars / wires (0.1mm-10.0mm), High Purity Copper/Single Crystal Copper fine wires (0.015mm-0.10mm), Copper-Tin Alloy and Cu/Sn fine wires (0.020mm-0.1mm), High Purity Single Crystal Silver (4N-6N), High Purity Single Crystal Aluminum (4N-6N), Giant Magnetostrictive Materials (GMM), GMM devices, Electronic Cables and services. With a leading position in metal R&D and industrial applications, we have established business relationships with some famous companies all over the world.

Our company has an outstanding scientific team, international advanced production equipment and management experience. The technology of Youk products has reached the international advanced level. Three core technologies have been patented. Our company has passed ISO9001:2002, ISO14001:2002 and OHS18001:2002 certifications. Products also passed RoHS, MSDS, SGS, and other certifications.

Youk has the only Vacuum Melting and Inert Gas Protecting Continuous Unidirectional Solidification Equipment outputting 500,000kg/year in China. The Equipment can completely prevent the oxidation and secondary pollution of metal smelting. Precise control has ensured the stability of single crystal copper bars/wires. Due to the excellent research and advanced detection facilities, such as Element GD, TEM, EBSD and thermal analyzers, Youk can improve the performance of single crystal copper products continually."
Hugh Nguyen
Angel City Audio
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DaveC

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Re: speaker cables
« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2014, 12:53:06 PM »
Thanks for the info, Hugh. I read that dagogo interview before and it sounds like Audio Sensibility is doing a good job. Hard to go wrong with OCC wire + Furutech connectors imo.

Interesting Henan was founded in '07, about 10 years after the OCC technology has been patented and documented. I will leave it up to the individual to decide what they think at this point, I have nothing more to say on the subject.