Author Topic: Subwoofer Newbie Dumb Questions...  (Read 10059 times)

Offline StereoNut

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Subwoofer Newbie Dumb Questions...
« on: March 04, 2013, 03:11:23 PM »
I just bought a really old (1990's ???) used Hsu TN1220HO subwoofer with the accompanying 250 Watt amplifier "on the cheap".  I also happen to have a Hsu Bass Optimizer that a friend gave me a while ago.

What are my options as far as integrating this monstrous, oversized cat-scratching post 12" driver subwoof into my 2-channel system?  My room is 16 x 28' with a 9ft. ceiling. 

The rest of my system is as follows:

• Dodd Battery Pre-amp
• N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 Amp
• EE Minimax DAC
• Cambridge (D-500SE) CDP
• Von Schweikert 2012 Mod.VR-4 Gen.III speakers
• Linn LP12/Adikt/RB300/Soundsmith MMP3
• T.W.L. Cords

Will the "pros" of adding the sub, outweigh the "cons" of adding a lot of extra "junk" into the overall system... and will I really gain enough on the bottom end beyond where my "Vons" will go by themselves to justify all of this?

Please advise.
Thanks!

SN
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• Primaluna Dialogue Tube Pre-Amp
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• Bolder/EE Minimax DAC
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Offline bhobba

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Re: Subwoofer Newbie Dumb Questions...
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2013, 04:19:05 PM »
In my experience subs are what you use for HT.

I find only a bit of music exists with stuff below about 35-40hz and most speakers go that low sub unassisted.

For HT thumping in your face bass is whats usually required - not accuracy.  What I do is set my subs to 100hz crossover and only switch them on for HT.  With the occasional bit of music I come across that has stuff under what my speakers will do I experiment with what sounds best.  My current speakers go down to 25hz so it not really a problem right now, but my new speakers I have ordered are standmounts and will only do 35hz so I imagine it will be used a bit more frequently.

Thanks
Bill

Offline richidoo

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Re: Subwoofer Newbie Dumb Questions...
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2013, 05:59:15 PM »


http://www.vxm.com/TN-122HO.1.htm

I prefer sealed subs to ported for music. But you will be able to have epic dance parties. Here is what I would do:

Overview: Stuff the VR4 ports and stuff the sub port so everything is sealed. Then experiment with the crossover freq, crossover slope phase and volume of the sub to make it as seemless as possible at your listening seat.

Details: You want the sub crossover freq to be as low as possible without leaving a hole in the FR between the sub and VR4. This just depends on how low the VRs will play sealed, probably 80-100Hz for the -6dB crossover freq. You will want the sub's crossover slope to be 12db per octave if there is a Slope control. If you don't seal up the VR4s then use 24db per octave slope setting on the sub crossover, but the port of the VR4s will add mud to the sub's sound so sealed is usually better when going to a sub. Try both if you are curious. Ideally the center of the sub driver is same distance from your ears as the VR woofers, with the sub phase control set to 0 degrees. Within a few inches is fine because you are aligning wavelengths that are several feet long so a few inches is very small variation, but if the boxes are solid and the floor is firm you can hear any misalignment. Bass clarity is all about phase. For hifi music the sub should be placed near the middle between speakers if possible. If you leave the VR4 ports open then sub crossover setting is lower (40Hz) and have more placement flexibility and the phase adjustments are less critical because of all the mud that will ensue. Reflections in the room might mud it up anyway, so basically you have to try things and see what works. If the distances are not equal then the phase control is only a band aid, it can't make the phase match through the whole crossover band, only at one freq. If they are equal distance with phase at 0 then crossover phase should theoretically be better matched through the crossover band, but it's tough. I think this phase mismatching is why people choose full range speakers instead of sat subs for hifi.

Use the right channel from the preamp or amplifier as the input signal for the sub. For rock most bass is in the center so it doesn't matter which channel but for classical bass is often on the right. There will be some records with bass on the left, you can swap channels or get stereo subs. ;)   Don't mix the channels together for sub input or it will sound muddier on most recordings. If you can't  place the sub same distance from you as the VR4 woofers then put it no more than 12" farther away. You can put it closer to you, and then use the phase control to delay the sub in time to match the timing of the VR4 bass. Phase control is for delaying only.

Experiment with the height of the sub driver, especially if sealed. You might find it to sound clearer at one height more than another. I have read that placing the sub very close to the listener seat with lower volume level and phase adjusted for the distance can sound clearer due to minimizing room echo effects with the lower volume, and increasing S/N from the sub from the closer distance. WAF Warning!

Some of this Polk sub tuning advice is good, but there is some BS in there... http://www.polkaudio.com/polk-university/articles/subwoofer-positioning-and-adjustment

Robert Harley's sub phase adjustment trick (use right main speaker only if you use the right input channel:)
"I set the subwoofer phase by reversing the the polarity of the main speakers by connecting the black speaker cable to the red speaker input, and the red speaker cable to the black speaker input. This inverts the polarity of the signal. I then play a test tone at the crossover frequency and while sitting in the listening position, have someone rotate the subwoofer's phase control. I listen for position on the phase adjustment that produces the maximum null (least amount of bass), and know that the phase control is set perfectly. I then return the speaker leads to their normal position.

This technique works because it's easier to hear the maximum null than it is to hear the maximum peak. When the phase control is set perfectly, the main speaker's woofers will move out when the subwoofer cone is moving in, cancelling each other. When the main speaker's correct polarity is restored, the main speakers and the subwoofer are maximally in-phase."

Use freeware Audacity sound editing program to create test tone sinewave at the crossover frequency to adjust the phase, rather than music.

It's not easy to integrate a sub. But occasionally it comes together and sounds good. With speakers as good as yours, you will probably want stereo sealed subs eventually, if you like the extra bottom of the sub. Good luck, keep the libations flowing and remember phase is only relative. If it sounds good to you then it's good.
Rich

Offline StereoNut

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Re: Subwoofer Newbie Dumb Questions...
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2013, 07:16:33 PM »
Wow, Rich!  I think I need to study this over quite a bit before I can take the test for this class! :lol:

That's more than I bargained for, but after second thought I know you are always a wealth of information here on AN.  Professor Richidoo once again, "informing the uninformed" like me!  :rofl:

Once I can figure all this out (if ever!?!  :roll:) I will eventually get up enough guts to try this subwoof out in various arrangements until I find out what works or doesn't work.

Honestly, since I just got my system reconfigured and back together after months of disarray, I think I rather just listen to music as the system is now and forget about any other equipment; subwoofers or other-wise!  :duh

Now just take a deep breath Bill, get off the "effing" computer and go fetch another LP to spin.  :thumb:

Later all!

SN
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Offline etcarroll

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Re: Subwoofer Newbie Dumb Questions...
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2013, 05:06:50 AM »
SN -

Keep at it, I've been playing with an Onix UFW 10 powered sub fed by Dahlquist DQ-LP1 for months. The LP-1 has provisions for stereo subs and I already see/hear that I want another sub.

Rich - great info as always.
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Offline jimbones

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Re: Subwoofer Newbie Dumb Questions...
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2013, 05:13:24 AM »
"Oversize cat scratching post!"  :rofl:
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Offline JBryan

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Re: Subwoofer Newbie Dumb Questions...
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2013, 05:30:40 AM »
After hearing quite a few friends' set ups and having listened to my fair share of subs trying to squeeze that last drop of bottom end from my system, I've picked up a few points you may find interesting. When I set up several pairs of subs (Janis, REL and Velodyne) and adjusting them flat in the room, I noticed that the xover point barely overlapped the main speaker's woofer at its dropoff. Any more would muddy up the sound while less would localize the sub (as in you could point it out). Also, when set up flat, the subs were essentially silent the majority of the time.

It's also a matter of taste - what's you flavor? In my system, with everything properly set up, I had decent sound with jazz, folk, chamber and orchestra music but found rock and other bass-heavy music lacked the 'umph' and thump of the concert/show experience. Eventually, I found myself overemphasizing the bottom end of both the woofers and subs and was happy with the sound until I put on something from the former group and realized my folly.

The end of my 'sub' venture came after my wife and I returned from the Opera (Wagner) and I was playing a recording of the opera through the 2nd system while I fixed dinner. During the meal, we both commented on how close the system sounded to the actual opera we had just attended. BTW, that was high praise indeed coming from my wife as she absolutely hates the speakers in that room (Tannoy Windsor cabs w/15" gold monitors). After dinner, I fired up the main system and played the same recording and was shocked at how different it sounded from the concert or even the other system. The bottom end was dull, murky and dark and just too artificial compared to the show and even the Tannoys. I spent the next few hours adjusting things but I never got over my reaction and within a few months, I had pretty much given up subs.

Finally, I've noticed that whenever I hear a system with a sub, whether at a friend's, a store or a show, in almost every instance I hear an that same unnatural overemphasis of the bottom end in general and the sub specifically. I recognize the tendency and it works OK if you listen to rock and techno/dance music but its quite obvious when more acoustic type music is played. Of course, this just my opinion and most certainly biased. Subs do come in handy in many applications (HT certainly) but as Richidoo points out, properly integrating subs into any system can be a PITA and in some cases, you're simply better off without 'em... but you'll never know 'til you try.


Offline BobM

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Re: Subwoofer Newbie Dumb Questions...
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2013, 06:09:48 AM »
We all have some old Stereophile magazines lying around. Take a look at the technical tests Atkinson does on speakers and check out the frequency graphs and how the different crossover points are determined to sum to a smooth output.

You will soon see that crossover points don;t overlap. The top of a bass driver starts rolling off before the bottom of a mid driver starts kicking in. Adjusting a sub properly is done the same way.

So if your main speaker says flat down to 40Hz, then adjust your sub crossover point to be something like 30Hz and play with the volume level of the sub to get a good integration.

Also, like Rich says, common "wisdom" says place it in a corner. I find that works for HT but not for music. Put the sub in the middle of the wall. Sometimes putting it up off the floor helps too (raise the height of the speaker), and sdefinitely play with port open and closed. This will result in less boom, but you may have to turn it up a wee bit to compensate. Play some funky punch bass driven music and you should be able to hear the integration point pretty well.

Best O Luck, (St Paddy's Day is coming)
Bob
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Offline StereoNut

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Re: Subwoofer Newbie Dumb Questions...
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2013, 06:13:43 AM »
Thanks, JB.  I appreciate you adding your experiences on subwoofers.  As with EVERYTHING else audio, "the proof is in the pudding".  The only answer to any of this is to TRY IT and experiment.

What I really do need is more specific info. upfront on the differences in "how" this Hsu sub can hooked up to my system using the Hsu amp/crossover and whether the Hsu "Bass optimizer" is something to be used as an alternative or in addition to the Hsu amp/crossover.

I'm guessing that Hsu owners will be of the most help here because I don't even know how the pieces of this puzzle fit together right now!  :duh  

That being said, I still appreciate whatever "general" subwoofer set up info. and suggestions everyone has because it's sure to be useful somewhere along this process.

Thanks all!
SN
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 11:42:27 AM by StereoNut »
"Friends, Romans & Countrymen; lend me your ears"

• Primaluna Dialogue Tube Pre-Amp
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• Cambridge D-500SE CDP
• Von Schweikert 2012 Mod.VR-4 Gen.III speakers
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Subwoofer Newbie Dumb Questions...
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2013, 06:44:36 AM »
Bill, post a picture of the controls on the sub amplifier. Then we can explain what they do. If you understand how to use your available tools then you can experiment with more confidence.

With bass frequencies, there really are no specific answers. Even the generalities don't always work. You just have to try different things and see what happens in your room. But some basic knowledge about phase and crossover design are valuable when deciding a plan to proceed.

Offline StereoNut

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Re: Subwoofer Newbie Dumb Questions...
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2013, 07:54:40 AM »
"Oversize cat scratching post!"  :rofl:

Well, Jim.  At least I know you really do read my posts!  :lol:  

I couldn't resist using that description for two reasons; first being that the damned thing does look like a cat scratching post, secondly my daughter's cat (my 4-legged Grand-daughter) welcomed it in the house by immediately assuming it was a gift for her and decided to take it out for a "test drive"!!!

The only picture I have here (see attached below) is her in our fridge doing her best "grocery impersonation" !!!  

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

SN
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 08:09:22 AM by StereoNut »
"Friends, Romans & Countrymen; lend me your ears"

• Primaluna Dialogue Tube Pre-Amp
• N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 Amp
• Bolder/EE Minimax DAC
• Cambridge D-500SE CDP
• Von Schweikert 2012 Mod.VR-4 Gen.III speakers
• VPI Prime/Soundsmith MMP3/DV20x2H
• T.W.L

Offline JBNY

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Re: Subwoofer Newbie Dumb Questions...
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2013, 08:23:53 AM »
So I have almost the same VSA Speakers (VR4 with 2012 upgrade) and I have a SVS sub that integrates with it for HT purposes. But I also have 4 other subs in different systems. So I should be able to offer some generic advice that hopefully you can use.

If you are trying to integrate the sub for 2 channel listening with your Dodd preamp, hopefully your preamp has more than one set of outputs. If it does, use one set to feed the amp to the VSA, the other to go to the HSU, you can run L/R to the HSU if it has L/R inputs otherwise using a good y splitter will work just fine. On the HSU you should be able to set the crossover settings, not sure what your options are but if you can do 24/db slope, and 40Hz crossover, I would start there.

Once you have that, play some pink noise through the system with only the VSA speakers hooked up, set the volume on your speakers to about 75db on a SPL meter, then disconnect the speakers and only play the pink noise through the sub, set it to 75db as well. Then hook in the mains and listen to it with both and adjust the sub more or less depending on what you need. Maybe try 60hz crossover as well.

Basically that should get you started and not too over the top to begin with.

FWIW I do not use the sub with my VSA speakers other than parties and HT setup.
-Joe
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Offline StereoNut

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Re: Subwoofer Newbie Dumb Questions...
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2013, 08:25:53 AM »
Bill, post a picture of the controls on the sub amplifier. Then we can explain what they do. If you understand how to use your available tools then you can experiment with more confidence.

With bass frequencies, there really are no specific answers. Even the generalities don't always work. You just have to try different things and see what happens in your room. But some basic knowledge about phase and crossover design are valuable when deciding a plan to proceed.

Here's what I've got, Rich.  I hope this helps.

The link below is from the Hsu website for the Bass Optimizer
  http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/bass-optimizer.html

The pix below are of the actual 250 watt Hsu subwoofer amp/crossover that came with the TN1220HO subwoofer I just bought used.

Specs (as best to my knowledge) are as listed:

250 Watt Amp
Crossover type: line level 24dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley, low pass
Crossover Frequency: 30 - 90 Hz, continuously variable. Can be bypassed
Input Impedance: 10 k ohms
Inputs Speaker and line level: Gold plated RCA jacks and gold plated 5 way binding posts
Outputs Speaker level: (6 dB/Octave high pass, approx 90 Hz for 8 ohm speakers)
Controls: Level control, low pass frequency control, phase inversion switch, EQ switch (TN1220HO/1225HO), and crossover in/out switch
Shipping Weight: 20 lbs
Size: 11" (width) × 11"(height) × 5.5" (depth)
Power Requirements: 120 VAC, 400W

SN
"Friends, Romans & Countrymen; lend me your ears"

• Primaluna Dialogue Tube Pre-Amp
• N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 Amp
• Bolder/EE Minimax DAC
• Cambridge D-500SE CDP
• Von Schweikert 2012 Mod.VR-4 Gen.III speakers
• VPI Prime/Soundsmith MMP3/DV20x2H
• T.W.L

Online toobluvr

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Re: Subwoofer Newbie Dumb Questions...
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2013, 09:11:06 AM »

Will the "pros" of adding the sub, outweigh the "cons" of adding a lot of extra "junk" into the overall system... and will I really gain enough on the bottom end beyond where my "Vons" will go by themselves to justify all of this?

Please advise.
Thanks!

SN

Since you already own the gear, and there is no additional outlay required....why not just listen and decide for yourself??

Doesn't that matter more than any advise you receive, expert or otherwise?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 09:13:13 AM by toobluvr »
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Offline StereoNut

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Re: Subwoofer Newbie Dumb Questions...
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2013, 09:35:16 AM »

Will the "pros" of adding the sub, outweigh the "cons" of adding a lot of extra "junk" into the overall system... and will I really gain enough on the bottom end beyond where my "Vons" will go by themselves to justify all of this?

Please advise.
Thanks!

SN

Since you already own the gear, and there is no additional outlay required....why not just listen and decide for yourself??

Doesn't that matter more than any advise you receive, expert or otherwise?

Absolutely, John.  I said it myself in Reply#8

"As with EVERYTHING else audio, "the proof is in the pudding".  The only answer to any of this is to TRY IT and experiment."

If you read my whole post there, you will see that I'm not quite sure what I have in Hsu electronics (Subwoofer Amp/Crossover vs. Bass Optimizer) and how they are used properly, be it individually or together.

As I said... I'm trying to figure out how to fit all of the pieces to this puzzle together! :)

SN
"Friends, Romans & Countrymen; lend me your ears"

• Primaluna Dialogue Tube Pre-Amp
• N.Y.A.L. Moscode 600 Amp
• Bolder/EE Minimax DAC
• Cambridge D-500SE CDP
• Von Schweikert 2012 Mod.VR-4 Gen.III speakers
• VPI Prime/Soundsmith MMP3/DV20x2H
• T.W.L