Author Topic: Learning experiences  (Read 10698 times)

Offline Carlman

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Learning experiences
« on: April 18, 2011, 08:08:07 AM »
I was reading StringDrivenThing's experience with his system changes and thought it would be a worthwhile topic to discuss what we've learned about knowing when you've reached your goal with a system.

I think many of us of have wished we'd held onto a piece or a system in our pursuits. 
What comes to mind for me is a pair of modified Usher 718's, and an AKSA amp.  I sold both at a loss but at the time, I needed to, in order to finance the next addition.  It sucks to be impatient and on a budget. ;)
But, timing is everything, and I've been a sucker.. and also seen some good deals come and go when I couldn't work it out.

In any case, my real question is: What have you learned that satisfies you, especially after you made a change and put yourself on a new path?  What was the system like? 

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline JLM

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Re: Learning experiences
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2011, 08:26:55 AM »
My audio epiphanies (in no particular order) over the past 40 years:

Active speaker designs (one channel of amplification per driver) kicks ass.  Auditioned Paradigm Active 20 vs Studio 20 (both small 2-way standmounts) about 10 years ago.  No comparison!!!  Super dynamics, flat frequency response, and incredibly deep/full bass from the Actives.

Transmission line cabinet design.  Slow/extended bass roll off that matches room gain.  Bass is fast and backwaves are reflected away from the driver (to avoid muddying the sound).  Sealed sounds dead, bass reflex sounds boomy, horns (unless giant) are lacking in comparison.

Single driver speakers.  Totally coherent, no trying to match the sound/dispersion at crossover frequencies, active by default, and a few do real bass (mine go below 30 Hz).  Sounds more like music, less like artificial hifi.

Advantages of EQ (flat frequency response).  Suddenly the sound all makes lots more "sense".

How important the room is.  My last two rooms were close to the Cardas Golden Cuboid (Golden Greek rectangle), the last one being designed to exactly match it.  Room treatment not needed (does little good).  And more importantly no boomy bass.  Makes me sorry for those who can't have such a space.

Nearfield listening.  Takes the the higher frequency room effects out of the equation.

Offline BobM

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Re: Learning experiences
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2011, 08:38:54 AM »
I've definitely reached my goal, until I don't (of course).

I've got to believe this is true for most of us neurotics.
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Offline rollo

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Re: Learning experiences
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2011, 11:11:11 AM »
   Over the years several types of systems have graced our home. Each one had a special attribute the others didn't. I love the topend of ribbons, hate metal dome tweeters. Hate exaggerated sibilance on vocals, love the harmonic deay of notes, hate crisp highs.  The all SS systems were well too much SS, threadbare. So then a tubed pre and SS amps. Then SS pre and tubed amps. Then SS phonostage, then tubed. Dynamic speakers, maggies, now line arrays with a sub.
   What has been the deciding factor  is tonality and harmonic stucture. It just took years to discover the tone I like.  No audiophile fantastical systems any more. The thrill of super duper dynamics, detail up the yimg yang, thunderous bass and so on. It has to hit you in te heart not the left side of the brain. I do not want a microscope I want music.
   What floated my boat in the beginning sinks it now. Once one gets past the audiophile hype of the latest and the greatest you have been reborn.
    Taking all the sonic attributes I favor, the system now has evolved to have most if not all of my likings. It takes time but mostly experiencing different systems is what did it for me.
     Push pull has pushed me away. SET has embraced my soul. Subjective it is.  All I want to hear when someone else is listening "is" man that sounds great, not wow the bass the staging the bull shit.

charles
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Offline tmazz

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Re: Learning experiences
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2011, 12:17:45 PM »
   ....... It has to hit you in te heart not the left side of the brain. I do not want a microscope I want music.

There is a time and a place for the microscope, but we all need to know when to put it away. detailed examination of a piece of equipment's performance is a necessary part of this hobby, because without it we couldn't compare and contrast components and share those results with fellow audiophiles. But that type of analysis has its own time and place. You can't listen to sound and listen to music at the same time. Listening to sound is an analytical process while listening to music is an emotional one. After 30+ years in this hoby I can analyse sound characteristics  with the best of them, but I am happiest when I loose track of those characteristics because I am just too involved with the music. My favorite systems are the ones where I say "I like it, I don't know why, but I like it." (This of course drives Roy right up the wall.  :lol: )
Remember, it's all about the music........

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Offline BobM

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Re: Learning experiences
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2011, 12:44:47 PM »
My favorite systems are the ones where I say "I like it, I don't know why, but I like it." (This of course drives Roy right up the wall.  :lol: )

I'll definitely have to try that next time I see him.  :twisted:
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Learning experiences
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2011, 01:12:11 PM »
With my first system I loved the scale of big music, musicality, easy and intense emotional connection.
Second system was high resolution and dynamics audiophile type system was mentally stimulating. 
Third system midfi speakers, got me listening to my favorite kind of music again, for which audio quality is irrelevant.

Now trying to pull all of these good experiences together into a new system. Large high sensitivity speakers for scale, low order crossovers and extreme quality drivers and PP tubes for just enough detail to get the tone of violin and brass right without overstimulation, and an easy, natural, unhyped overall presentation for comfortable listening all day long, even to bad recordings that I love.

Of all the rooms at Axpona none of them did it all. Most had too much resolution. Natural sounding ones were too small for good scale. yadayada

Offline mdconnelly

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Re: Learning experiences
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2011, 01:56:53 PM »
I've rarely had the opportunity for wholesale system changes.  I've had my Aerial 10Ts for 15 years now and continue to love those black ugly boxes for the music they make.  But, I have swapped every other component at least once over time (and a few more than that).  I can't say I regret selling any one thing in particular.  Perhaps the closest was some JPS and Shunyata cables that would likely work far better in the system I have now than the one I had when I sold them.  But those are nits.

Like Rich, for quite awhile, I moved more and more toward a high resolution, highly detailed system only to realize that the more I did that, the less I was enjoying the music.  But, like most of us audiophools in our weaker moments, I was thoroughly enjoying the quest and chance to try new toys!  And lets not discount the learning opportunities along the way (nor the $$ spent in the process ;-)

Now, I'm happy to say that I've found an excellent balance between resolution and musicality and can't quite imagine how to improve on it much (or at least not without a major influx of cash which is not likely to happen).   

Offline rollo

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Re: Learning experiences
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2011, 05:01:16 PM »
   ....... It has to hit you in te heart not the left side of the brain. I do not want a microscope I want music.

There is a time and a place for the microscope, but we all need to know when to put it away. detailed examination of a piece of equipment's performance is a necessary part of this hobby, because without it we couldn't compare and contrast components and share those results with fellow audiophiles. But that type of analysis has its own time and place. You can't listen to sound and listen to music at the same time. Listening to sound is an analytical process while listening to music is an emotional one. After 30+ years in this hobby I can analyse sound characteristic's with the best of them, but I am happiest when I loose track of those characteristics because I am just too involved with the music. My favorite systems are the ones where I say "I like it, I don't know why, but I like it." (This of course drives Roy right up the wall.  :lol: )


 As a offering tonight we will burn alive our first audiophile CD. The one with bells, whistles and drums that is. Sorry Chesky but its gotta go.
  But but that's it Tom the hobby made me do it. One needed to have all the audiophile jargon to describe what he heard. It is for me all about the tone and harmonic structure not a Hi Fi spectacular. I must admit that for Rock that is a requirement for me as most live concerts are just that. Hyped, loud and nasty.
   I want chills when listening not cold two dimensional sound. The Pipedreams and SETs do that for me. my recent experience with NOS oil chokes has brought that closer to me than ever before. The sound is wet, alive and breathing.
  Clarity and soul the hardest fish to catch in our tank. I have a net now.


charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
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Bigfish8

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Re: Learning experiences
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2011, 05:44:45 PM »
Heck of a topic! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I expect you never stop learning and if you do it is probably because audio is no longer a quest or active hobby.  I think my key learning experiences have been:

1.  Finding AN (thank you Lonewolfny) and meeting a group of local people that have helped me build a decent sounding system.
2.  Learning that I must resist the latest and greatest because it is only the latest and greatest for a short period of time.  After a short period of time you can sell or buy that piece for 50% of the original cost.
3.  Value your friend's opinions but value your own ears more!
4.  Learning that initial reaction to great resolution is okay but for me it is how much I enjoy the music after listening for more than an hour.  Am I straining to hear the detail and resolution or am I just relaxing and enjoying the music.  I have found that just relaxing to the music is more enjoyable to me.
5.  I have learned that visual appeal of a piece of gear is important to me.  It may not add one damn thing to the sound but I have to appreciate the look.
6.  I have learned to appreciate all music genres with the exception of Rap!  I think my more recent exposure and indulgence in Classical has been an amazing experience.

Ken

Offline djbnh

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Re: Learning experiences
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2011, 06:23:45 PM »
My audio journey has illuminated a number of topics including the following dozen:

#1) Enjoy the journey, enjoy the music, but delivery usually takes longer than promised / expected.
#2) Less can mean more - you can stretch your wallet by getting reasonably sounding gear at reasonable prices (instead of paying a ton for one piece that may be a top-of-class performer) and have $ left over to get more gear that you may want to try / need.
#3) Used gear that has been well treated can be a great bargain and wonderful way to help upgrade a system.
#4) You'll never get it right the first / second / third time.
#5) What someone else / the majority likes may not have anything to do with your own tastes.
#6) Read forum comments, both those types with which you may agree and those disparate from your own viewpoint, and be open to things you might have dismissed out of hand.
#7) Information gained in PMs may be just as or even more important than that gained in forum posts.
#8) Modestly priced tweaks can make a more than modest difference.
#9) Good electricity is critical.
#10) Non-audiophiles can be even more discerning than avowed audiophiles.
#11) There are a lot of helpful persons out there including some whom I can't thank enough.
#12) There are a lot of jerks out there including some pretty big bloated egos.

and the Baker's Dozen comment: #13) WAF matters.  :rofl:
“If I discover within myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.”   C.S. Lewis

Offline Carlman

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Re: Learning experiences
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2011, 07:59:05 AM »
Good stuff, DJ!
One thing I've learned is that I myself am a 'dynamic device'.  I change based on mood, physical health, and with experience.  So, a system I put together 10 years ago that I didn't care for, I may love now... or I may think it still sucks. ;)  

I've learned that I had to say to myself, 'this is enough', now go enjoy the music.  Seriously.. I am almost embarrassed at how much I spent on gear, the room, the house, etc.  I did not mean it to be a show-off system.. but it is... and that can be a little uncomfortable for me... but I have learned to be proud of it instead... kind of a Frankenstein moment...  It's alive!  :lol:

I have enjoyed more new music since I stopped buying gear.  But I do still like building systems, mainly because I am a creative problem solver.. and it's a fun and easy thing to do for me now.  Just give me a budget, features required, room size and your tastes and bam, I can suggest a system that you'll love for a year, maybe many... I think a lot of us love to do that mental exorcise. :)

The biggest lesson: Have fun!

I really enjoy listening to music.

jsaliga

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Re: Learning experiences
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2011, 04:37:14 PM »
I wish I could say that I have experienced an audio epiphany or two in my time.  But I fear that I am leaning in the other direction and am becoming something of an audio curmudgeon.  Well, perhaps I'm not that much of a grouch, but I am most certainly not an audiophile's audiophile -- assuming there is such a thing.

I have learned that equipment reviews and opinion really doesn't mean much beyond the person writing the reivew or expressing the opinion because what is often missing is a common frame of reference.  Yet I am still interested in what other people think, much moreso than what other reviewers write.  It all has a sameness to it.  Take some prose, add a few flattering pictures, and sprinkle it liberally with audiophile adjectives and there you have it....yet another rave review.  I'm still waiting for the reviewer who hooks up the expensive whatever and says categorically, "This thing sounds like sh*t."  And I have to admit that to me reviews and opinion almost seem like self-fulfilling prophecies as you climb the price ladder.  Now it may just so happen that a $10,000 amp sounds that much better than a $3,000 amp.  Or it could be that it sounds better because people expect it to sound better.  But there are reasons to buy audio gear that don't have much to do with how it sounds.  I am attracted to certain pieces by the design philosophy or aesthetics.  Yes, I want gear to sound good and I want it to look good.  Sounding great and being butt ugly doesn't get it done for me.  Note to equipment manufacturers: if you build the greatest performing audio component assembled from the best available parts and then stick it in a chassis that looks like it was put together by a bunch of 9th grade industrial arts students then I will look elsewhere every single time.

It is because of the apparent dichotomy between the subjective and the objective that my approach to home audio has evolved into building relationships with vendors rather than trying to divine what the best sounding audio doo-hickey is.  I tend to favor small operations and even one-man shows where I can get to know the designer and builder on a personal level.  This has led to me a very satisfying place system wise and I don't have to spend a lot of time worrying about whether one gadget sounds better than another.  I operate from the assumption that most equipment within a given price range will more or less perform the same.  Besides, one cannot know how something will truly sound until you put it into your system and listen to it with your sources in your room.  So the choice for me often comes down to who I like doing business with, how do their products speak to the audiophile in me, and who do I trust.  To me, gear is nothing more than a means to an end.  I'm more about the music than anything else.  I was chatting on the phone this morning with another AN member and this very subject came up in conversation.  I said I would rather talk about a Miles Davis or Duke Ellington LP than go on about which whatchmacallit sounds better.  I can only tell you what sounds good to me in my system in my room.  It may sound like total crap in yours.

It seems as though every time I get to a place where I am totally satisfied with everything in my rig, I am overcome by an uncontrollable urge to shake things up and do something new.  I try not to do this too often.  But since I usually buy nice stuff to begin with that retains some value I can do other things and not take too big of a hit financially, which to me is one of the great things about being an audiophile.  The other great thing is being in a position from time to time to help others.  I have been extremely fortunate and blessed to be able to buy the equipment that I have, and to immerse myself fully in my passion for music.  It's a personal indulgence that many people cannot afford to make.

I try to gift stuff to others when it makes sense to do so and when the gift will truly have an impact.  A few years ago, for example, I tried a Denon DL-103 phono cartridge and it took me all of 10 minutes of record spinning to determine that it was a poor match for my tone arm.  I could not get back fast enough to the Benz Ruby that I was using at the time as my main cart.  Someone on another forum accidentally broke the cantilever on his DL-103 and he was upset because money was a bit tight and he didn't know when he would be able to buy another cartridge.  The thought of him not having vinyl for the forseable future was more than enough for me to send him a PM and offer my DL-103 to him for free.

Anyway, I guess I have blathered on long enough.  Peace.

--Jerome
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 06:12:06 PM by jsaliga »

Offline BobM

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Re: Learning experiences
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2011, 06:05:14 AM »
I think (hope) that I have reached a state where I have experienced enough and played around enough with audio to say "I know what I like, and I like what I know" (to quote Genesis). To that end I am mostly content and generally make reasoned and incremental changes to my system from time to time. My epiphanies appear to be more on the small incremental and subtle side these days, at least in my mind.

I do however get great joy in talking to others who are still in the midst of their journey and have more enthusiasm than I do to push into new territory and swap equipment and talk "shop". That's the best part of being in an audio club or a forum member. I can get my mind into their game without getting my fingers too dirty, although my soldering iron is never far from my reach.

There is always something new to learn, and it takes a community to raise an elevated audio system.
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Offline mdconnelly

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Re: Learning experiences
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2011, 08:34:49 AM »
Jerome - can't tell you how many times I've felt exactly as you describe.  There are so many different aspects of this hobby and they can easily get cross-threaded with each other.   The love of music, the love of technology and equipment, the love of the pursuit to find what might sound just a bit better, and the constantly changing, ever evolving variable called yourself (as Carl called himself a 'dynamic device') all contribute to this complex hobby.   That's why I think the term 'Nervosa' is so applicable.

I totally agree that the more I get to know the people behind things, the more I like things.  This past weekend, I had a chance to spend time with a very interesting artist, Jonas Gerard, in Asheville NC.   He's in his 70s and has run the gamut of art styles, formats, approaches.  Right now, he's into abstract, multi-media art.  Before having met him, I found the art interesting but probably not enough to buy it.  After having spent time with him, I'm totally fascinated with his work and ready to fill my house with it.  The only thing that changed was my increased awareness and knowledge of him and his work.

I have found similar circumstances with music/musicians, books & articles/authors, beer/brewers and of course, audio components and the engineers behind it.   All part of the human psyche I suppose, but the more I understand what motivates me, the more I find what I'm looking for.