Author Topic: Retail vs. used vs out of pocket system valuation  (Read 11476 times)

Offline tmazz

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 12088
  • Just basking in the glow of my tubes.....
Re: Retail vs. used vs out of pocket system valuation
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2010, 06:50:38 PM »
Audiogon, ebay, mfr/dealer demo, DIY, and low component turn-over, is how I can afford this hobby...

In high end audio like any other technology it costs big bucks to be right on the leading edge. Those who are willing to take a small step away from the best can do so a a huge cost savings. And in thew high end, with the exception of DACs & CDPs which seem to change at a very fast pace, a tow or three year old component will perform at a level very close to the latest models at a fraction of the cost. Over the last couple of years I have replaced about 2/3s of my components at prices that ran about 25 cents on the dollar compared to MSRP and my system has never sounded better. Could I improve it by purchasing the latest new models? I have no know doubt. But I do have serious doubts that the amount of sonic improvement would justify the additional cash outlay. I know there are people out there who have to have the biggest baddest toys on the block and also have the cash to support that desire. And while I am not one of those people I am sure glad they are around, because if they weren't buying new and upgrading so often the secondary market that is supporting my system would not exist.
My goal is to simply do the best I can withing my limited budget and then enjoy the hell out of whatever I am able to put together.  :thumb:
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline Carlman

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 3037
Re: Retail vs. used vs out of pocket system valuation
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2010, 07:44:43 AM »
My 2 pennies on tmazz's last comment...
Buying a system that's new, just released to the market (and therefore expensive) means being on the cutting edge, this is true.  (maybe not the 'best' though)  And, that only applies to big name brands in my experience.  The people buying new systems made by oddball companies that make 1 product you've never heard of (Hψrning Euphrodite's anyone?... ) ... those are for true hobbyists that have sacrificed a lot to get that setup... but they are VERY rare and aren't the people pushing the way for lots of gear showing up.  

There are in-betweens where it's not McIntosh but it's not an Aksa kit amp either... and along that scale seems to be pretty proportionate with sales price and deviation from MSRP.  So, you get a big discount right off the bat with less known brands vs. well known.

The people I've seen on the leading edge buying the newest, latest, greatest... are people with high incomes building systems designed to impress others first, selves 2nd.  They tend to buy well known brands so they can be easily identified in magazines and such.  (So when reading Skymall they'll say "ooo, I saw that at Carl's house!  He's so money!") ;)  

Buying McIntosh gear is much like buying a BMW.. Some people think you have good taste, some think you're a snob, etc.. but they all know the brand and associate you with the type that can afford such things.  To me, that's embarrassing but to others, it's the point.

Either way, you spend what the market has determined it should cost.  I don't think there are a great number of people buying at the leading edge these days... and the market reflects that.  You get new gear at a good price (overall more value) from smaller companies.  One of the big deals of this hobby for the past 10 years is finding those values.  

So, I don't think it's a simple cycle of buying best then trickling down.

-C
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 07:47:49 AM by Carlman »
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline JLM

  • Obsessively Audiophilic
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
Re: Retail vs. used vs out of pocket system valuation
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2010, 09:28:37 AM »
I owned a MacIntosh amp years ago, it was the best built and classest looking thing I've ever owned.  But it sounded like crap and frankly was ridiculously overbuilt for home audio use.

At the other audiophile extreme I tried a battery powered Tripath integrated that fit in my hand.  Very unassuming, but underpowered for my speakers and the battery could only be changed by the factory.  That damn battery slammed into the rest of the inards and broke them up during shipment back to the factory, costing me $100 plus shipping and the cost of the battery.   :x

Wifey knows I spend too much, even with sales from the old stuff, but it's still cheaper than many other hobbies and it keeps me home.  Part of the hobby is in climbing the learning curve, so much of what has been spent is caulked up to that.  Part too is the advancements in technology.  Hopefully you sell off before it becomes yesterday's news.

When purchasing I try to decide if the enjoyment derived equals the depreciation.

Offline Carlman

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 3037
Re: Retail vs. used vs out of pocket system valuation
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2010, 09:55:31 AM »
JLM, you make a good point I missed.. and that is there is no 'best'.. what it sounds like has no bearing in the market because it's so subjective.  (Bose, anyone?)  I had a Mac pre amp that was seriously limited in dynamics and transparency... The circuit design was crowded with compromise in order to achieve features per price point.  It was designed for the Dr. still paying off his loans. ;)
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline mdconnelly

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 1439
  • new ways to dream...
Re: Retail vs. used vs out of pocket system valuation
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2010, 11:08:20 AM »
Audio can be an investment like any other investment, or it can be a money pit (or more likely both ;-)

My audio investments have paid off extremely well in all measures except for perhaps one: money ;-)  I've learned a lot, I've spent countless hours listening to wonderful music, I've made many new and very interesting friends along the way, and I have a system today that sounds far better than what I had just a few years ago.

I've also learned to seek used or demo equipment or great sales and factor in resale value on whatever I purchase because my track record says I'll probably sell it at some point.  But I've also learned to seek cornerstone components that will be very difficult to improve on, even as technology marches on.

What is equally amazing, however, is that there is no right answer.  If you spend any time on AN, AC, AA or any other audio site, you quickly realize that no two people have exactly the same system yet each of us has spent a lot of time and effort selecting exactly what we do have.  Maybe it's just our desire to be unique but it certainly drives this hobby.




Offline Carlman

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 3037
Re: Retail vs. used vs out of pocket system valuation
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2010, 12:01:52 PM »
I wonder if it is about our desire to be unique, or special... I thought it was more about pleasing one's self.  I think for me it's about making myself happy first then enjoying others point out that I'm 'special' once I've figured out what makes me happy.
OK, there's enough in there for folks to have a few pokes. ;)
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline mdconnelly

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 1439
  • new ways to dream...
Re: Retail vs. used vs out of pocket system valuation
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2010, 12:19:22 PM »
Carl, you are special!  :rofl:

Maybe it's more like when we were kids and had erector sets -- the joy was in building something and making it work (often in strange and mysterious ways ;-)  But the fun was always in the building.

I've often wondered that if I ever took on the project of building my dream home if I would be looking to change things a month after completion.


djdube525

  • Guest
Re: Retail vs. used vs out of pocket system valuation
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2010, 07:39:16 PM »
The nice thing is having a group of people willing to get together, bring equipment and let people have the opportunity to listen. New or used... the opportunity will save you tons of money in the end helping you avoid needless transitions (hopefully) from one unit to the next.

As far as chasing new... sometimes it's dependant on transformative leaps in technology... VCR vs DVD players... DVD vs HD-DVD (er) Blu-Ray (I was on the losing end of that transition). Sometimes buying new brings you quite a bit of value... for what I needed (analog out) the Oppo Blu-Ray was perfect for my needs. Is there better? Could I have waited and secured a 2nd hand one after people jumped to the SE versions? Yes... but at the time, it filled a need.

In fact... I would even argue my tendancy to over analyze, wait and wait on a deal has a value (time = money). I could have been doing something else... like enjoying a new toy. It all depends. Seems like there's no right or wrong answer. I will admit though - I do get very psyched when I score that "deal". It's been a while though.

Offline BobM

  • Audio Neurotic
  • *****
  • Posts: 3318
Re: Retail vs. used vs out of pocket system valuation
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2010, 07:00:32 AM »
Is it a general universal principal that men tend to like complex electronics? We fiddle with separate components, play with cables, pester our wives that we must have a home theater system to watch a movie, then hang onto the remote desperately changing the sound settings until we are satisfied that we CAN hear that spaceship coming from the left rear speaker.

Maybe the women have the right idea. They just want to push a button and have it all work. Kind of like the Apple philosophy. No, it's not the absolute best quality, but it is reliable and cutting edge in its own way.

Convenience vs Quality = Mars vs Jupiter. Trade-off's either way.

Laugh and the world laughs with you. Cry and you'll have to blow your nose.

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Retail vs. used vs out of pocket system valuation
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2010, 07:18:19 AM »
Maybe they don't care about making it "just work," but care more to just enjoy the content without the technical distractions. That's how I feel about hifi now. I'm trying to boil down what I've learned into a DIY system that allows music to hit the target without obsessing over technical issues or performance compromises, or cluttering up the room with gear. And I don't want to store excess value beyond what the gear actually does. Appearance and brand status are of little value to me. Just gimme the music for the lowest cost and family impact possible, also considering that I am now spoiled by what hifi can do, it still has to sound good.

Offline tmazz

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 12088
  • Just basking in the glow of my tubes.....
Re: Retail vs. used vs out of pocket system valuation
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2010, 08:13:38 AM »
Maybe the women have the right idea. They just want to push a button and have it all work.

Bob,

I recently picked up a Logitch Harmony Remote for the livingroom. You program it off the Web via a USB connection at set up softkey buttoms with labels like Watch TV, Wacth a DVD and Listen to Radio. Each button then turns on or off the various ocomponents and switches all the settings required to have the proper audio and/or video selection to the chosen task. They have various models that I have seen for as low as $69 new. A great enhancer of martial harmony. Spend a 1/2 hour to set it up and you will never again get one of those death threatenging call at work saying "I'm trying to watch Martha Stewart. Which #%$@ button to I press to get sound out of the TV!!!!  (Oh, come on, we've all been there.....  :duh
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables

Offline rollo

  • Industry Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 6982
  • Rollo Audio - Home demo the only way to know
Re: Retail vs. used vs out of pocket system valuation
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2010, 09:13:34 AM »
Carlman you are correct in saying there is "no best" . To many variables and subjective views to classify anything as the best. All reviews no matter how thorough are fundamentally flawed. Meaning its the reviewers system, personal taste and most importantly the ROOM [ as you well know] The only true review is by the potential buyer in his or her ROOM. 
   I also agree with anchor components. Get that classic amp speaker synergy and pre and all that is left is the DAC of the day or CDP of the day.
   Now don't get me wrong. There are pieces of the review that may perk our interests or we relate to so not all wasted. Just opinions. Measurements which are important to some may also carry some weight but not all reviews contain such info.
  The bottom line ENJOY the music and forget the latest and greatest until one decides to go in another direction. Keep the eye candy and give me tone and dynamics.



charles
contact me  at rollo14@verizon.net or visit us on Facebook
Lamm Industries - Aqua Acoustic, Formula & La Scala DAC- INNUOS  - Rethm - Kuzma - QLN - Audio Hungary Qualiton - Fritz speakers -Gigawatt -Vinnie Rossi,TWL, Swiss Cables, Merason DAC.

Offline richidoo

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 11144
Re: Retail vs. used vs out of pocket system valuation
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2010, 01:59:21 PM »
"I'm trying to watch [formula 1]. Which #%$@ button to I press to get sound out of the TV!!!!  (Oh, come on, we've all been there.....  :duh

I say that to my 11yo all the time!  They have 3 video game consoles connected to the rx, hard to remember the settings for each one, or how to get back!

Bigfish8

  • Guest
Re: Retail vs. used vs out of pocket system valuation
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2010, 04:03:49 PM »
Quote
A great enhancer of martial harmony. Spend a 1/2 hour to set it up and you will never again get one of those death threatenging call at work saying "I'm trying to watch Martha Stewart. Which #%$@ button to I press to get sound out of the TV!!!!  (Oh, come on, we've all been there.....   ) 

Tom:

I love your post as it is right on the money!

I had to leave the speaker attached to our Pioneer Plasma TV.  Vera just turns on the TV watches Martha and the Food Channel.  She just uses the TV remote and adjusts the volume of that one tv speaker.  Vera never turns on the HT Receiver and never calls me to ask with button to push?  She is happy and therefore I am happy! :thumb:

Ken

Offline tmazz

  • Out Of My Speaker Cabinet
  • ******
  • Posts: 12088
  • Just basking in the glow of my tubes.....
Re: Retail vs. used vs out of pocket system valuation
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2010, 06:34:10 PM »
She is happy and therefore I am happy! :thumb:

What does Jeff Foxworthy say - "When Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!"

I guess the reverse is true as well.  :lol:
Remember, it's all about the music........

• Nola Boxers
• Sunfire True SW Super Jr (2)
• McIntosh MC 275
• ARC SP-9
• VPI HW-19 Mk IV/SDS/SME IV/Soundsmith Carmen Mk II ES
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC/Rasp Pi Roon Endpoint
• DigiBuss/TWL PC&USB/MIT Cables