AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Bipolar System Disorders => Topic started by: Carlman on February 04, 2007, 01:23:37 PM
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I'm thinking about making a change to my 2-channel system... mainly to add a little tubey-ness to the sound and second to add a phonostage
I have a few choices...
1- Keep what I have, it sounds lovely, accurate, detailed, w/ great imaging, etc. There's no real reason to change a thing... but to add a TT is $1500 to do it right... and it'll still be converted to digital.
2- Replace the TacT with a traditional preamp with similar resolution but with tubes and a phonostage... and use a separate DAC. (Scott Nixon tube DAC) Cost to sell/buy everything is about $600.... give or take.
3- Replace TacT pre and the Audio PC* with a Squeezebox, move the PC to another room and get the SN USB DAC. No TT but possibly netting a savings, not sure after SB3 mods. My PDA (or laptop) would become my remote, with album art.... neat!
*-PC is a 20db noise-maker that resides in the sound room now
My goal is to compare all 3 scenarios back-to-back in the coming weeks.
It will not be easy. However, I'm very interested to see how all these fair. If anyone has a modified/upgraded power supply or SB3 they'd like to see compared, let me know and I'll thow it in the mix. As it stands, I have the stock wired setup... I don't need wireless for the SB3.
So, let me know your thoughts or suggestions on performing the comparisons....
It'll be a couple of weeks before I can A/B/C compare these options... but I'm going to work on them prior to the big 'shootout'. ;)
Thanks,
Carl
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Wow! Very ambitious. Will you be able to do comparisons side-by-side?
What is the TacT currently doing for your system? If I didn't Need mine, it would be gone. On the other hand, if you need what it can do, there aren't any true alternatives.
From what I've read, it seems a lot of USB interfaces don't have their stuff fully together. The soundcard interface seems to be a weak point though I don't have anything more definitive than that. Empirical Audio seems to be on the right track but their stuff is way spendy and I don't know if it's a plug'n'play solution (it may be).
Any particular reason the Nixon unit is the choice? I did a side-by-side between a Red Wine Monica-2 and a TubeDAC+ about two years ago and the TubeDAC owner and I agreed the Monica was better. Then, the Monica was set aside for an Ack! 2.0. The Altmann Attraction and Lessloss both kick the teeth out of any of the three.
Now, this was two years ago and I'm sure there have been improvements so take this with a shaker of salt.
Converting LPs to digital seems blasphemous, but what do I know? I don't own a TT and never have.
If you *really* like what you have going on, try hard not to sell it until you're SURE of the move. The quest for better sound can go backwards.
This stands to be exciting!
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Thanks for your thoughts... and I'm not sure it'll be something I can directly A/B... but I'll at least be able to switch cables and play each configuration.
I've heard the latest USB DAC from SN... as in, just developed, hard to obtain at this point... but Hantra has one and I love it. I'd really like to hear some of these other DAC's... Maybe I could get on a tour? I have no information on the Lessloss... just heard it referenced. If it (or the Altmann) is battery-powered, I'm not interested....
The TacT is currently in bypass mode. I have fixed the primary issues with physical treatments for the room. It's a fiberglass cocoon now. ;)
The TacT I have is the RCS 2.0S and has had EVERY one of Anthony's latest modifications done to it... by him personally. It's an incredible presentation with the McIntosh 402 amp and Piega P5 Limited speakers. I can't imagine getting anything 'better' just 'different' at this point without spending several thousand. (sound familiar? :lol: )
The USB DAC drops the sound floor significantly. However, does this also happen when using the Squeezebox? I hope to find out.
I'm still open to any SB power supplies, modified units, or other DAC's to throw in the mix. :)
-C
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Carl,
Since you are in bypass mode now, it would seem the TacT is not being used for its distinguishing advantage, and you may do better with an alternate preamp. That said, I'd not count on finding the preamp you like and it being a full function (includes phonostage) rather than needing an outboard phono pre. Does your TacT have the A/D board? Unless you are going pretty high up the food chain, I wonder just how much you would lose in the extra A/D>D/A conversion? Didn't you have (maybe still have) a mid level Pro-ject?
If it would be of any help, you are welcome to borrow my Plinius just to use either the phono stage alone, or the preamp and/or phono. Or borrow the Oracle if you need a table.
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I've never experienced a TacT...so, I don't have a frame of reference as to a tube pre-amp that would have similar resolution.
I can only say, from my experience, tubed pre-amps almost always sound more natural to my old ears. There is just something about using tubes in the voltage amplification stage that helps to create ambiance, air, and space. But to mate well with a solid state amplifier of lower input impedence (are you using a Mac amp?), I would condider a tubed pre-amp that uses a follower curcuit of some type (Cathode, Mu, or, White) to insure a low output impedence. Much better electrical match...
As far as phono amplifiers are concerned, I would probably not elect to have it integrated into the main pre-amp..for the same reason you prefer a separate DAC; i.e., it has it's own power supply. Whether battery or ac..it still doesn't have to 'share' it's power supply with the pre-amp.
Have you considered a Mac pre?
WEEZ
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Yes I am considering a Mac pre, either the C220 or C2200... not sure which one yet. If business goes well, the 2200... otherwise, the 220... ;)
The TacT was required to get my room right before but now that I've got my room dialed-in I don't really find myself wanting to change those settings... and I like it in bypass more than after I've done corrections. I even went so far as to buy a better mic ($125 vs. the $8 one included) and I still prefer the bypass mode over the corrected curves.
My pre does not have the a/d card. I'd have to do this to spin vinyl on the TacT: TT-> phono pre-> A/D card (I'd need the phono pre (1,k) and the card (500) for a $100 TT, I think not.)
If I were going full-tilt on vinyl, I'd get a better table and an Eastern Electric Phonostage.... I still love that pre... For now, I'm going to use an old Sony with my Dynavector 10x5 cart. It sounds good for my purposes. The phono pre on the Mac pre's should be good enough for me.
-C
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If you're not using the correction, I'd dump the TacT.
And, sell me the mic. :D
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The thing is, the TacT is a fine preamp and DAC... and has been modified to eek out every ounce of performance available. So, it'll take a helluva preamp to displace it. However, I only have 1 digital source now... and will only ever have 1. So, why bother with a preamp at all? I hope to find out.
If I can add the pre with a phonostage, well... that adds some fun into the equation and is worth considering also.
-C
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I think it depends on the voice of the amplifier. Preamps can flesh out the bones, which I don't think even a modded TacT will do, as it's very neutral. Then again, if you don't need meat on the bones, a TVC type is almost certainly more transparent and wouldn't require digitizing your analog.
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OK, I did a 'quickie' comparo...
bone-stock wired SB3 used:
1, as source and pre, analog outs to amp
2, as 'transport' with digital out to TacT
These were compared to the TacT fed directly from my PC's sound card using a few songs I've been listening to recently... The White Stripes, Jack Johnson, and James.
Using the SB3 alone directly to the amp sounded interesting... the first few licks of simple guitar were pretty good but as things got complicated, the upper mids got strident or maybe distorted.. but either way, worse.
The bass was a bit thin and the entire presentation was like fairly good mid-fi... Like a top-of-the-line Sony receiver sounds. However, it did do the one thing I like about computer-audio... it had that smooth/analog-like presentation of music. I could see there being potential in modifying this unit.
I then plugged in the SB3's digital out to the TacT preamp, and did an A/B comparison on the same track using digital 1 and digital 2 inputs on the preamp. There wasn't leaps and bounds difference like the SB3 alone, but the smoothness, depth and texture were missing on the SB3 that the TacT was presenting. The TacT was much quieter, with a blacker background and the music was just more real-sounding.
So, that's a quickie... more to come.
-C
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I'll bring my 2200 for the comparo.
Why don't you send that Altmann down here miklor, and perhaps Carl can give a better answer on why the SN. :lol:
Here's why I wouldn't go Squeezebox. Software, plain and simple. I'd like to hear the Transporter next to my rig, but I probably wouldn't upgrade. If Slim Devices can update firmware on a SB3 and screw up the sound, I don't want to take that chance.
Also with my PC, I have steadily improved the sound as I've discovered tweaks to my Foobar, and to the operating system. Currently I'm playing with some stripped Linux distros to see what sounds best. You don't have that option with an SB. That may actually be a GOOD thing though. You won't have to worry "could this sound better if I just change xyz?".
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We'll see how things go down the road. It will be a month or more until the Altmann is on the East Coast with another 4 stops to go. And, Carl said batteries are not part of the cool zone.
On the SB3, the feeling is that the newer firmware is good. Remember, you can still go back to any previous version at any time.
As a transport, the modded SBs are smokin'. I've got one RWA unit analog out on one system and the other digitally connected to my TacT. I'm really happy with both.
Another great thing about the SB is the reasonable entry fee. With this new delivery (computer) anything you buy today WILL be obsolete quickly. Keeping costs down now and building the library for future days are sound ideas.
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I know nothing about these DAC's... but yes, battery-op is out of my 'cool zone'... :lol:
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Carlman/Hantra,
I am interested in the latest SN USB DAC. Let me know if you are interested in comparing that to an I2S Offramp/Northstar 192DAC. I can shoot it down to you guys with the recommended versions of the software (foobar/src).
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Carlman/Hantra,
I am interested in the latest SN USB DAC. Let me know if you are interested in comparing that to an I2S Offramp/Northstar 192DAC. I can shoot it down to you guys with the recommended versions of the software (foobar/src).
The Northstar is an incredible oversampler. It's one of the best I've ever heard, and for the money, it's a no brainer. It lacks that last little bit of non-OS goodness for me though. I tell you it's addicting. :P
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Well, Hantra and his lovely wife drove over an hour to let me hear this comparison side-by-side... Thank you very much! My wife had someone to talk to instead of just think about how I could be doing 'other things' on her honey-do list. ;)
We started by listening to the stock rig and letting H get a good idea of what's happening now... which I think is pretty darn good, definitely leagues beyond what it was a year ago. I am not using any electronic room correction.
The current rig:
TacT 2.0s preamp and dac with FULL Aberdeen modifications
McIntosh MC402 Amp (2x400)
Piega P5 Limited speakers
Audio PC
Analysis Plus Oval 12 digital cable
Straley's Reality Cable Interconnects (from pre to amp)
Black Sand Cable PC's
Running Springs Audio Haley power conditioner, on a dedicated line
Temporary items for comparison:
McIntosh C-2200 Tubed Preamp
Scott Nixon Tubed USB DAC, connected from Audio PC, then analog outs to C-2200 using DIY IC's. (Belden 8422/DH Labs termination) and BSC Chromium PC.
Stock Squeezebox 3
Sony 600 turntable
The room is 11w x 13d, bay windows on the end behind the speakers, listening position about 4-5' into the room from the back wall. There is roughly a 7' triangle between speakers and me.
After getting everything connected, warmed up, and we got a good dose of what the current system is doing..... we setup an A/B comparison of the Squeezebox digital out vs. the Audio PC digital out to the TacT.... Playing an old favorite or two, one being 'Over Now' on an 'MTV Unplugged' cd from Alice in Chains.
So, Audio PC vs. SB3 in digital out: Audio PC wins by a hair. There was just a bit more darkness in the background and the SB3 sounded a little thin overall in comparison. It surprised Hantra how close it was and I was reasonably impressed but I'd already done this comparison so I knew what to expect... but it was still a step back and I'd have to spend money to get the SB3 as good as the Audio PC.... new PS and digital out mods might be enough... but I don't know....
We then switched to the non-oversampling SN USB tube-DAC and the McIntosh preamp. Wow, that's different. The PRAT seemed to slow down a bit. I'm used to an immediacy and perfect timing with the TacT and I missed it now. However, I got used to the change and found myself listening to the music and not the gear. It wasn't quite as toe-tap inducing but the music had a more continuous sound to it with a nice sense of space... It was very analog? or even real sounding. When I go to a live show, this is really what it sounds like... and not like what I often *want* to hear... kind of hard to describe... But the best way I can put it is it sounded less digital.
This combo yielded a different presentation entirely than I'm 'used to'... When we switched back to the TacT/Audio PC combo, I got my PRAT back and found it more 'comfortable' since I've grown so accustomed to it... and I started noticing a couple of things; the soundstage/imaging and the actual sound of imstruments. We listened to a live recording of Bela Fleck and the banjo had a sort of nasal quality to it on the TacT and I switched it back to the SN DAC/Mc combo and that went away and I could hear the whole body of the instrument better... and it just sounded more like the instrument does in real life. I noticed the soundstage wasn't as neatly disected as the TacT though... but I could hear the instruments better. I had a hard time figuring out what I was hearing so we had to switch between rigs a few more times.
They definitely image differently from one another... and my guess is that the TacT is able to more neatly separate things than the SN DAC or Mc pre.. but the SN/Mc presentation images in a natural way, and the sense of presence of singers and instruments is presented very nicely... and the sound stage is more of a stage and less like a studio with rooms.... oh boy... I'm getting in knee-deep here... They imaged differently is the bottom line. Some ways were better than others... VERY hard to describe.
In the end, I could get used to either sound and enjoy it... however, the non-oversampling DAC removes some 'digital-ness' from the sound and I like it. Moving to the USB DAC/Mc rig does negatively impact the PRAT I love right now but it sounds more musical. This DAC is a huge leap from the original tube DAC I heard from SN when I first met Hantra. The original seemed to over-emphasize mids and wasn't nearly as resolving as this current one.
BTW, I could not run the digital out from the TacT to the USB DAC because well... it's USB... no coax input... that would've been interesting to hear, though.
Lastly, we started comparing vinyl to Audio PC since the Mc has a phonostage... but everything was cold... the cart, the table, the tubes in the pre had to be turned on, etc. So, initially it was a bit restricted/tight sounding but after the first side of the record, things started to relax.
Sometimes I thought vinyl was better, others the PC... It's a lot closer than you'd think with an audio PC... I've done this comparison before... But with the Non-oversampling DAC in the mix, it's even closer... with the PC taking the lead in some cases.
One other comparison we made during this was playing songs on a hard drive networked/shared on a different PC, at the other end of the house. Neither of us could detect ANY difference, blind or non-blind. That's good news because now I know I can put a smaller PC in that room and put a big server somewhere else.
It's a big change if I make this... lose my beloved TacT for a new pre (that needs break-in) and a new DAC... but in the end I found myself listening to the music more than the gear with the tube DAC and the Mc and not so much on what the gear was doing.... however, I LIKE listening to the gear... ;) That's what this hobby is! However, I could live with making the change to listening to music instead for a while.... :lol:
Another factor is that I don't use the TacT for its biggest feature, the room correction... I'm sure there's someone out there that would love to have this feature... Before I went nuts fixing my room, adjusting my seating position, using lasers to get everything perfect, reading books on acoustics, etc... I could just push a button to fix things. But I went nuts. ;)
So, that's that... Great time, great company, interesting comparison... I learned I like non-oversampling and that SN has got it right with his latest piece... and that the Mc is a nice pre with a bonus phonostage.
Thanks again, B.
-Carl
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Nice work! Or, play if you like that sort of thing. :wink:
The TacT can be used as a digital source for an external DAC too. A SN unit or some other could also do that. Then, you could take baby steps. Whatever DAC you tried could be kept even if the TacT left.
Sweet anxiety!
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The TacT could indeed be used as a digital source... but the SN DAC is USB to analog.... so in this particular case the TacT couldn't be used... and I wanted an 'easy' (read cheap) way to play records... for novelty mainly.
I already miss the TacT... I feel like someone took off my training wheels. ;) I don't have the ability to just 'fix' the room anymore.
However, I'm really enjoying the new C220 McIntosh preamp. I couldn't afford the C-2200 or I would've done it. The SN DAC is being built... All in all, I've spent a little more money but have a different kind of sound.... and I really like it. I'm just listening to records now but hopefully I'll get the DAC in the house soon.... and enjoy the non-oversample sound. ;)
-C