AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Psycho-Acoustics => Topic started by: Carlman on December 06, 2007, 06:32:57 AM
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OK, so the basement project is officially started.
Rich came over yesterday and helped me layout the basement which renewed my enthusiasm to have the sound room... It's a big project but I can see how it can actually get finished now.
First steps will be to get some Drylok and apply it to all the walls.
http://www.ugl.com/drylokMasonry/masonryWaterproofer/latex.php
After that's done, I'm putting in a subfloor that floats and allows air to move underneath. There are 2 good-looking products out there that must be special ordered from the pro desks of Lowe's or HD...
1- DRICore http://www.dricore.com/en/eIndex.aspx
2- DeltaFL http://deltafl.com/
DRICore appears to be easier for me to install and handle... it comes in 2' squares that lock together. Delta comes in rolls and you just lay normal 4x8 sheets of plywood on top. Sounds easy enough but I think I can handle the 2x2 interlock concept better.
Either can be installed after or before framing the walls... I think I should do the whole floor prior to framing... but I'm going to ask my builder/contractor what he thinks also... since he'll be physically putting up the walls.
After that is HVAC.. then walls. Rich is helping me with the proportions of the room... should be around 15' wide by 8.5' H by 27' long. I've used the room calculator but Rich is actually helping figure out what it all means and how to get the most out of the room with a good balance of diffusion and absorption. My goal is that the system should sound like there are no walls and not dead... but not ringy, overly 'lively' or whatnot...
After that is electrical... that's where the fun REALLY starts... I'm getting a subpanel and a new service line from the street... and the panel will only be about 20' from the transformer... and the outlets for the gear will only be about 5-10' from the panel...
The rest of the basement is getting sheetrock and will be finished first.. I need a real office asap. There will be a full bath, fridge, popcorn maker, some storage, bedroom, and server room in the basement also... It will essentially be a finished 3rd floor of the house. I'm looking forward to all that also. But the sound room is the main room... oh, that will be sweet.
Thanks to Rich for his willingness to help and enthusiasm. We're hoping this will be a fun and useable place for comparisons.
More to come...
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OK, so the basement project is officially started.
Yahoo !!!!! :clap:
Now....don't forget the before and after photo's - start to finish....
Good luck Carl !!!! :beer:
...........Chris
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Man, I am so envious... Can't wait for pictures!
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I'm excited too, it is a great space.
Once the wall, floor and ceiling construction is decided for thickness, I will find a length that minimizes modes. Then treat corners for bass and surfaces with diffusion, using Acoustisoft R+D (http://www.etfacoustic.com/RPlusDSite/index.html) showing the results. I hope to build most of the treatments ourselves, depending on Carl's patience.
Rich
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I will take photos... Right now there's not much to photograph other than some blue tape lines in a concrete box... (which I will photograph) But I'm thinking at least 1 or 2 per phase initially...
Phase 1: Drlok coating will make it super-clean looking....
Phase 2: Subfloor
Phase 3: HVAC
Phase 4: Framing
Phase 5: Electrical
I'll make a real plan when I meet with the contractor to get all the steps aligned.... I 'think' I can get the coating and flooring done before Christmas... depending on which weekend, possibly HVAC and framing also. We'll see.... I really want to get the floor done.
I'm looking forward having folks over when it's finished.... or before, anyone want to help? Free beer and pizza! ;) I'm most looking forward to having a good place to do real comparisons in a controlled environment... I'm always looking for a good reference system so I can really hear the differences and not just the room interaction changes... and this will be the best I can do. I think it'll be cool to have folks over with 3 sweet spots and 6 not-as-sweet ones in the room also... We may actually be able to cycle through more than half the gear we bring to compare! haha.
-C
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Dricor is a great product - I highly recommend it in this application. Also, from an isolation standpoint, building your walls on top of the Dricor floor is a nice step up that costs you basically nothing extra. Better surface contact, no need to use treated bottom plate on the walls, tighter seams to caulk, etc.
Bryan
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Well, as good as Dricore probably is... I decided to go with DeltaFL and use Advantech OSB as the subfloor. It turned out to be almost half the price... (1500 vs. 2800) I could not see any difference in the actual performance but I also thought with 1200 square feet, 2x2' at a time would take a lot more time than just unrolling 3 or 4 rolls of DeltaFL and then laying 4x8' sheets...
Either way the frame will be on the subfloor rather than the concrete... and will be glued and sealed to be air tight. Thanks for the peace of mind on going this route, Bryan... I wasn't sure if having the floor floating, disconnected from the walls would be a better idea... Laying the whole floor all at once will be so much easier.
-C
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It's a double edged sword. Even with pad and plywood, you'll still want the floor under your room to not be connected with the rest of the subfloor to minimize transfer.
You should also consider building your walls 1/2" short and using PAC DC-04 iso clips to tie them to the joists to minimize transfer. I'm working with Mike Galusha right now to do the same thing to his new room that he's building.
If you have some time, drop me your phone number in a PM and we can discuss options on the phone.
Bryan
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Sounds like your on the path to nirvana. There is nothing like a proper dedicated listening room. Now are your existing speakers big enough for the new room. You know something new is only par as the nervosa will set in soon and all hell will break loose. Exciting times for sure. Best of luck.
BTW I am a retired Architect and Constr. Mgr if you need any advice feel free to ask.
rollo
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Very cool Carl. I've been planning mine since July and construction is *finally* supposed to start late next week. My shipment of Green Glue and isolation clips for the walls and ceiling from Bryan arrived this week and the electrician is in my garage as we speak finishing up the connections for the new Panel. We're putting in a 100A panel for the basement and he pulled 2GA cable for the feed. That's some big ass wire. :shock:
I am so looking forward to getting it done. I've been stuck in a spare bedroom since August and it's only 10ft x 12ft, so even with a mountain of room treatments it's only tolerable.
Looking forward to the pics.
Mike
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You got that straight about the #2. We had to pull a run from my main box to my 100A subpanel for the theater and the basement. My cuz is my electrician and he was cussing the whole way. We also redid the main panel and the run from the main out to the meter - that stuff was even worse.
Bryan
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anyone want to help?
Hey Carl, I'm definitely in. Just let me know what some possible days are. Gotta tell ya I will be only slightly pissed that my house has been up for two years, and you may still beat me to the finished listening room. Ah well, I usually only get to learn from MY mistakes :duh That may still be the case, but they will be happening to YOUR house :-P
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I'm driven because I realized I was losing some of my audio-mojo without a place to hear a real hifi. Being on the path is almost as good...
I found building a sound room stangely similar to building a system... Depends on what you want, there are lots of opinions, lots of options, and then there are some limitations... like budget and real-life issues... and of course WAF.. ha. And in my case, WAF means cheap... She thinks she's losing me to the man-cave anyway. ;) It'll be interesting to see how much she really wants to be in that room after it's finished... I bet more than she realizes.
As to using help.... I am the type to actually take you up on it! My friend Allen was in town this past weekend and I put him to work putting the first coat of 'Drylok' on the walls and floor. That was a whole day's job for 2 people. THANKS AGAIN, ALLEN!!! :) :) However, Allen and I figured hiring out the 2nd coat might not be a bad idea. It's not worth inhaling the fumes again... much less the cost of a day off work.
The DeltaFL membrane and OSB will be able to be delivered next week... I'm not sure if I should do that myself or not. It's been 20 years since I laid a subfloor... an that was on wood beams. So, I'd love some help on that... or advice. I planned to put green glue between the non Tongue&groove areas... The whole floor will float on the membrane.
Anyway.. that's where I am...
-C
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We want Pictures! :drool:
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That's right. "Pics or it didn't happen..."
Bryan
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It doesn't really look like much right now...kinda like a whitewashed prison cell with no bars (of any type, iron or wet-Carl will certainly add a wet bar at some point). :beer:
I was glad (and proud) to help. Hopefully I'll be back up to Durham before it's done so I can contribute more insight and man-hours.
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Carl, one thought on the DeltaFL vs DRICore ... your basement floor needs to be level already, as no real good way to shim under the full sheets. You probably made sure the builder did that, but just in case ...
Other than that, I don't think laying the floor will be difficult at all.
Not sure what you mean by I planned to put green glue between the non Tongue&groove areas...
? You mean on the edges you have to trim? Not sure how rigid the membrane is, but do you need something of a more structural nature so the two edges of the osb don't separate vertically under traffic? Biscuits?
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Actually, in the theater area anyway, the walls will be built on top of the perimeter. That in intself will keep things together..
Bryan
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Carl, your going to have one terrific room when all is finished, lucky thing your a young man who wants to tackle the projects. Heck, if I had that room to work with I might try tackling that project myself. Just so you don't catagorize it as "a honey do list" you should be ok.
There was an interesting discussion about ceiling diffusion or absorption in the general asylum. Go down to almost the bottom of the page. If you hadn't seen it I thought you might want to take a look.
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/bbs.html
Later buddy & thanks again for putting me up.
Bill
PS: Rich, your tubes I talked about will be sent shortly.
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Carl.....
She thinks she's losing me to the man-cave anyway...
.....Thats funny... :rofl:
A few things your wife can get you for the "cave"....
A nice sign for the entrance door....
(http://www.personalizedsignshop.com/images/products/772-07615b1.jpg)
This way you can "find you way".....
And....a guys gotta eat.......cookies... :rofl:
(http://www.extinctcollectibles.com/cj-fredflintstone-vandor.jpg)
Fred's cookie jar.....
Good luck..... :beer:
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Thanks Bill!! 8) Sounds fun!
I think this is your thread, Bill:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/50/502627.html
Should be a fun read!
Christine won't be losing you Carl, she will ALWAYS know right where you are, even when she's not home. haha
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Thanks for the great suggestions! I especially like the 'mancave' sign. :lol:
As to the flooring, I was planning on laying it down, bumping it together and putting glue on the non-T&G sides to keep it continuous and help keep it from being as resonant... since each square will be slightly isolated with the glue. Just a thought, we'll see.
At this point I'm thinking the only framed walls in the sound room will be the back wall and a 30" H wall along the front to hold outlets. The soffits will be framed out as well and installed after the sheetrock ceiling goes in.
The final coat of Drylok is now complete and the entire basement is an opaque white... much brighter than before! 8) As soon as it dries I'll take some shots. Until then, I have this one from when Allen was helping: http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=182
Enjoy! ;)
-C
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(http://www.audionervosa.com/gallery/5_30_01_08_5_11_59_1.jpg)
Update:
The basement floor and HVAC system are in! :)
Click on my gallery icon for more photos. BTW, I'm having trouble with the gallery and am investigating other, less confusing, and less flaky options.
Framing is being done at the moment. The sound room is last to frame so that may start later today or tomorrow morning.
Enjoy the pix.
-Carl
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http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?action=gallery;su=user;cat=22;u=5
Looks pretty good!
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... and the fun begins...
Keep the pics coming.
Bryan
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Wow!
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Reminds me of the days when I did my old basement...
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Is the smell of sawdust still fresh in your mind? That's all I can smell at the moment.. mmmm piney goodness. ;)
It's looking really nice.... more to come after today... then 2 more days... and after that, not much can happen till the bank account fills back up. ;)
-C
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Bank account :roll: ! Pish posh. This is America where plastic rules :duh
Bryan
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I think Carl is keeping the economy of his part of town from going into recession just with his construction project :-P
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Nick, I certainly feel that way at the moment. ;)
I've updated the photos with yesterday's progress... the walls in the soundroom are up... today is 'soffit day'.
(http://www.audionervosa.com/gallery/5_31_01_08_4_46_33_1.jpg)
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that looks like the ladder i just bought at home depot
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Lookin good carlman! More pine nuts today? That means more pictures tonight!
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Coming right along. Make sure you caulk the bottom plate to the concrete before you put your mat down so you don't lose isolation there.
Also, if you haven't planned the door position yet, try to keep it out of the corners and offset at least a couple feet if not more from the center of the rear wall. That leaves more options when it comes time to treat the room.
Bryan
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That looks to be a beautiful audio room, seeing with my mind's eye. In the end, you will have pride of not only assembling the tinkly bits but also the structure in which they reside. What an opportunity.
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Coming right along. Make sure you caulk the bottom plate to the concrete before you put your mat down so you don't lose isolation there.
Also, if you haven't planned the door position yet, try to keep it out of the corners and offset at least a couple feet if not more from the center of the rear wall. That leaves more options when it comes time to treat the room.
Bryan
Done and done. We laid a polystyrene-dimpled membrane first, (DeltaFL.com) then the plywood first to make a subfloor. So, the entire basement is on one big floating floor. It was glued together at every seam with industrial adhesive. All of the walls are then glued and screwed to the subfloor, with an extra bead of glue along the inside edges of the sound room.
The back door is about 3' into the room along the back wall, which is about 15' wide. I'll post a pic of the layout in my gallery soon.
There has to be some weird soffits along the back because of a return duct from upstairs that can't be moved. I'm debating on whether to make the bump out symetrical now... probably will.
That looks to be a beautiful audio room, seeing with my mind's eye. In the end, you will have pride of not only assembling the tinkly bits but also the structure in which they reside. What an opportunity.
It's a dream come true, I'll be honest. I figured this will be 'my big thing'... I'll have a great place to hear music at its best and watch movies in my own theater.... and that's just amazing to me. You only live once.
-C
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Yup. And once you have a dedicated space to best set up and use your stuff, you'll never want to go back to a space that you have to share with windows, furniture, decorative considerations, etc.
Congrats.
Bryan
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Now you're making me wish we got a house with some expansion room. :duh
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Now you're making me wish we got a house with some expansion room. :duh
I'm just now starting to see how big of a wish it really was... It's a serious project requiring permits, several contractors, etc. It's on the scale of building a small but custom house.
If you want to vicariously enjoy the building process, let me know... I can always use free labor. haha...
-C
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Do you want me to bring the 120" screen on Sunday so you can get a feel for the size of things down there? I'm not using it so you are welcome to it.
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No, I bought a retractable 100" and will have them mount it in the soffit Saturday. (they're taking tomorrow off) Thanks for the offer, though!
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Sweet, I wanted retractable, but Corrie said no.
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I had no choice... it was what he had for the size I needed, at a great price... and I had to have retractable for the room's primary purpose; audio... I couldn't have a big screen covering all the diffusion and absorption panels... and then not watch it... HT is 2nd to audio in this room...
Otherwise, a fixed screen would've definitely been the way to go...
You can put a little curtain apron in front of them, like a theater! :)
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Looking sweeter every day. As you stated we only live once. Enjoy. The best part although frustating is the process. When you sit down for the first time in your new room after all is done the reward will be well worth all the grief, frustration and money. ENJOY you lucky man you.
rollo
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Well, the framing is about 90% finished... They're off today and coming back tomorrow to finish the soffit in the back of the soundroom and in the office to cover some ductwork... cleanup, etc.
I tried to put the photos in order of a walk-through in the gallery here (http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?action=gallery;su=user;u=5;cat=23). However, they are backwards. So, start with the last and go backwards to get a walk-through or 'virtual tour'. ;)
(http://www.audionervosa.com/gallery/5_01_02_08_6_10_14_1.jpg)
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Is that a niche in the room with the main air handling unit or is that the spot where you buy your tickets to the movie?
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Yes, I'll have one of the cats trained for ticketing. ;)
The niche will be pretty long... So, I plan to have a popcorn maker on the corner, followed by a little area for drinks and a hole that goes to a trashcan. Under the drink area I will likely have a mini-fridge... Or I could just do a keg/tap thing... Not sure yet.
-C
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... Or I could just do a keg/tap thing... Not sure yet.
-C
YES! Here's an idea that oughta work...
(http://www.audionervosa.com/gallery/105_01_02_08_5_38_02.bmp)
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Carl, ever since I left that picture of the beer-tapped computer, there hasn't been any additional basement progress posts. So... either the beer-tap is installed which effectively halted all further progress or you're keep any progress all to yourself.
Or, I suppose it could be that you're just too busy...
Hey, share the love...
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I have needed that beer! :beer:
Well, the framing and HVAC sort of wiped out my coffers for a bit. I'm in the midst of planning electrical and have a plumber coming for the bathroom. So, not real exciting stuff yet... The plumbing is more expensive than I'd hoped... and with 2 subpanels, I can only guess how much the electrical is going to be... I'm getting the sound room's panel, romex, and outlets all cryo'd.
I'm essentially adding an entire 3rd floor to the house so every step has a lot of non-soundroom 'stuff' to deal with also. I need my office to be a good space too... So, it's a lot slower going than I'd like but it's going... just a little 'paused' at the moment. ;)
-C
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Did you feng shui the entrance way where you are having the conference room yet?
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Yes... I changed a closet to a 'desk nook' so there is a free path through the room. :)
-C
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(http://www.audionervosa.com/gallery/5_10_06_08_5_58_38_2.jpg)
The electrical stuff is just about finished... We need to run the main feeds to the subpanels.
I have 1 subpanel (cyro'd by BlackSand) using cyro'd 20A breakers to dedicated outlets along the front wall, wired with cryo'd 12ga Romex. ;) No wonder it's always cool in the basement. haha.
I miscalculated what I needed so 4 will be cryo'd, 2 won't be. However, every outlet on the front wall has its own 20A breaker... and the projector as well... The platform for the seating will have a dedicated and non-dedicated outlet...
(http://www.audionervosa.com/gallery/5_10_06_08_5_58_38_0.jpg)
Low-voltage stuff is all finished as well... 7.1 surround speaker wires, VGA, network cables, FM antenna (roof-mounted), subwoofer IC, cable for TV, etc. All the network cables will be terminate in a big 24-port Gigabit switch, where the cable enters the house. So, the modem, router and switch will be in the utility closet... and all the servers/computers will be in the office for easy access.
(http://www.audionervosa.com/gallery/5_10_06_08_5_58_38_1.jpg)
Next steps:
Inspections (Electrical and Building)
Insulation
Sheetrock
and much, much more...
Depending on work projects will depend on progress... Things have slowed down quite a bit so, not sure when the next steps will actually happen... but I'll post when they do!
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Good Lord Carl! That's more juice on that front wall than a lot of small homes have :shock: 8)
Shouldn't have any problems running pretty much anything you want. You could have an amp shootout and never unplug any of them :D
Bryan
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Good Lord Carl! That's more juice on that front wall than a lot of small homes have :shock: 8)
Shouldn't have any problems running pretty much anything you want. You could have an amp shootout and never unplug any of them :D
Bryan
haha.. yeah, shouldn't be lacking for juice.. (Come to think of it, I've lived in apartments that only had 2 'fuses') ;)
Not-unplugging for shootouts was precisely the idea... Everything gets its own, indepenent and identical power. The outlets will all be the same type also (Oyaide)... I plan to use the room to compare things. I've never been able to do this to my satisfaction in previous rooms.
-C
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Satisfaction will be the main theme of this room. 8)
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Looking good! :)
That is some intense stud spacing on the back wall :shock: - must be load-bearing?
I like the soffits you are putting in too. Should be a beautiful space when you are done!
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Spacing on the front and side walls are 24" on center... The rear wall has staggered-studs so the wall in the sound room is somewhat decoupled from the wall in the office. None of the walls are load-bearing in the basement.. It has a 10" concrete wall and floor and a couple of cross beams but there were no walls at the beginning of this project... and that was after our house was completed. The basement is completely below-ground, not a walk-out. I had to seal up 2 tiny windows along the long wall... so, there are no windows in the sound room.. There are 2 in the office.. but that's it.
My bud the electrician should be here tonight.. or tomorrow night depending on his schedule to finish the 2 service runs and final review... then it's on to insulation and sheetrock... at some point.
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Very very nice.
I thought I had excessive power but not that much. I had the electrician pull 10GA and put in a 4plex on each wall each with a 20A breaker so each run has 4 outlets but they are side by side and individually pigtailed, so no ground differential between them. No cryo tho, budget (and perhaps my wife) wouldn't have stood that.
I'm sure you're looking forward to getting it done. It will be worth it!
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Oh, don't know if code in NC requires it but I had to put steel protection plates over the studs where the romex goes through, this to prevent the drywall guys from driving screws into the wire. Something like these (http://www.framingconnectors.com/product/205)
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Thanks, Mike.. We drilled the holes on the back edge of the stud so they wouldn't need so many plates... but when they're less than 1.5" from the front of the stud, they have to have one... I wanted to put the wires behind the studs but otherwise they have to secured to the frame with staples. So, holes it was... I'll need those plates in some spots, just not all.
There are 'only' 6 outlets along the front wall... I figured 2 powered subs and 2 monoblock amps would be nice to have on their own circuits.. and easy to hide/isolate wires to and from. Having the panel 6' from the power entrance of the house was an enticing option... and everything in the audio system will be on the same phase. I didn't want lights and dimmers and switching power supplies on my main audio system power... So, I have another panel for all of that.
Other boxes along that front wall are FM antenna, VGA cable, subwoofer output, several network cables, rear channel speakers, and CATV runs.
-C
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Hey Carl ... not much action in the thread lately ... assume there's been more in 3D?
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Yes, at this stage all electrical is finished, all the insulation has been put in, and we're ready for drywall.
All my rough-in inspections have been approved also.. and only 1 final inspection is required after all the work is done.
There are 4 main phases to finishing everything:
Drywall
HVAC and Plumbing completions (Install heat exchange, add toilet, sink, cabinet)
Trim and painting
Flooring
Each one of those is fairly hefty pricewise (other than trim and painting). So, each will get done as the money builds up.
For the sound room, I will have some additional costs like the room treatments, a projector, etc... Plus I'll need a mini-fridge, kegorator, and various other stuff for convenience. ;)
-C
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(http://www.socialpicks.com/photo/name/3348/money.jpg)
Any idea when you'll have the room finished ? Just a guess is OK.... 8)
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I didn't know you were suppose to keep scotch in the fridge :duh
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The fridge is not for Scotch! :shock: But there will be a cabinet-full whenever you visit :beer:
As to 'when'... I asked my accountant and she thinks we'll be able to 'move-in' in November... and she knows the money better than me... I wish I could just print that image and finish it now.. but that's the way it goes. I'm finishing a couple of websites now and as that money comes in, I can keep doing the big stuff... So, I'm hoping it could happen sooner.
-C
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I know what to put in the fridge....lots and lots of imported beer !!! :beer: :rofl:
Thanks and good luck Carl..... :D
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Each one of those is fairly hefty pricewise (other than trim and painting). So, each will get done as the money builds up.
Yeah, I know how that goes. Hard when both time and $ are in short supply. Are you contracting that out, or doing any yourself?
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Mostly contracted. I help where I feel confident I can do it right. So, mostly contracted. ;)
I have a hands-on supervision approach... which I know sounds annoying but it has worked well for both parties generally.
Even if I knew how to do sheetrock, hvac, or plumbing it wouldn't make the project cheap, just less expensive. Materials alone for these projects are pricey. Balancing what I can do, with income, work, social life, travel, other hobbies, etc. has been interesting... ;)
I have learned that a basement costs anywhere from 100-(sky's the limit) per square foot to completely finish. I could've done the whole thing for 100/sf with just plain ol' 1/2" sheetrock and basic square walls and room dividers.... and used a cheap window unit ac of some sort... Or I could've put it into my mortgage for $125 s/f if the builder had finished it... and gotten all carpet and simple trim.
It's when you add the requirements of the sound room that things double or triple... or more in cost. All of a sudden you need a LOT more insulation, electrical work, sheetrock, green glue, isolation clips, platforms for seating, mounts for speakers, hidden screens, floating subfloors, concrete sealant, super-silent HVAC, etc. :duh
But to me, there's 'getting it done' and 'doing your best'. I chose the latter. Everything in that basement is as I'd build my own house (next time). And I've learned a lot about what I'm going to do when I build my next house. So, I'm very happy with the choices I've made. And things are looking good for continuing... just taking a lot longer than I thought it would.
-C
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I have learned that a basement costs anywhere from 100-(sky's the limit) per square foot to completely finish. I could've done the whole thing for 100/sf with just plain ol' 1/2" sheetrock and basic square walls and room dividers.... and used a cheap window unit ac of some sort... Or I could've put it into my mortgage for $125 s/f if the builder had finished it... and gotten all carpet and simple trim.
Correction... I was way off.. It's 20-50 bucks a square foot to finish a basement nicely... Mine is looking like 35.. sorry for the Math error.
-C
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Being at the front end of my upfit, I couldn't decide whether to have a heart attack or recheck my own math after that post - decided on the latter and yes my number is considerably less than your initial one - thankfully.
If you are going to tackle anything that needs help let me know. Time is freeing up perhaps a wee bit soon.
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Mine ended up being a little over $34
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From the photos, I really liked your basement, Mike. How's it sounding? Was it worth 34?
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Basements can really get expensive. Several years ago, we finished ours. Completely changed the heating and air, lots of wiring, tile flooring, new oak stairway, lots of nice trim work and closets, fancy trey ceilings, a ton of recessed lighting fixtures. I acted as "Boss" and got great tradesmen, but by the time we had finished, I had $68 a foot in the project.
It is beautiful (actually the nicest rooms in a wonderful home) and my wife loves the space, but I really doubt it was worth it in the long run... As we get older, we just don't use it as much as we would have when we were wild young things. What's worse, we have most of the 1,100 sq ft of tile work covered with heavy rugs.
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Luckily, work is picking back up so I'm siezing the day and restarting this basement project. I've got the sheetrocker coming next week and then after that, it's bam, bam, bam get it done. I don't know why it would take longer than a couple of months to finish it to the point of being able to move in and enjoy it... but I'm hopeful it won't be too long.
I'll take more photos and document as I can...
-C
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Sheetrock is going up as I type... :) :) :)
Still a few loose ends here and there but overall going smoothly so far.
-C
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Finally! It's good to hear you're back on track, Carl. Let's see those pictures!
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Too fast and busy to get good shots, I'd be in the way. I'm trying to be helpful but you gotta move, move, move. :shock:
I needed 2 types of screws for the suspended ceiling: Self-tapping drywall screws to be exact... 1" for the first layer then 2" for the second layer of sheetrock.
Got a leak in a water pipe and HVAC guys need to make changes. Sheetrockers want to get it all done now, not wait... they don't speak English so well either. hmm. better run.
-C
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Hi Carl:
It sounds like things are really happening with the video/sound room. Having seen it a few months ago I am so damn envious of your soon to be complete man cave!
Ken
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I'm getting an irresistible urge to grunt and scratch... :-k
Bryan
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Plumbing got fixed but HVAC guys are only able to visit Friday.. So, that means 2 long, skinny parts will be open until they get here. Otherwise, the sheetrock is UP... About 98% of it is on the walls. Now comes the really dusty job of mudding and sanding.
BTW, anyone know how to get green glue out of an HDMI cable? I'm guessing solvent and a toothbrush. I can't blame them, I did it. :( I was the 'Green Glue Monster'. There is no need to use a caulk gun for this stuff... Just poke a stick in the back and push it out.
Note: Sheetrock (or dry wall) is done in stages (apparently) and the first step is getting it all mounted to the walls. Then they mud it, let it dry, sand it, mud it again, repeat until it's all smooth. I thought I'd have more time before the walls got covered.
Pix to come... It's really looking good. I've got a few major expenses left but I'm still on target for Spring. It's a little un-nerving doing this kind of a project in the face of a recession. But I'm doing my part to keep the economy rolling. ;)
-C (grunt, grunt)
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Okay, okay lets see the pictures of that Man Cave! :rofl:
Ken
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(http://redwoodr.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/caveman.jpg)
Otherwise, the sheetrock is UP... About 98% of it is on the walls. Now comes the really dusty job of mudding and sanding.
The whole downstairs is hung? And two layers of sound room, in one day? Crikey!
BTW, anyone know how to get green glue out of an HDMI cable? I was the 'Green Glue Monster'.
I can picture you covered in green glue, all smeared into your hair, dripping off your face, coming after the pretty buxom blond as she tries to run away in 6" stilettos - HDMI cables hanging off all over you.
Don't dip it in solvent yet, it might dissolve the plastic. I will try surgery with my exacto knife - I can repair LP skips with the magic blade, but I don't know about HDMI. Can they be re-ended?
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Here are some quick shots of where things were left off yesterday...
These are shots of the bedroom, bath, foyer/hall..
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More pix... office and such
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"The ROOM"
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Looking good, Carl!
You are going to shame me into getting off my butt, and getting started on the sheetrock work I need to do ](*,)...so my house will be ready for other human beings to visit :rofl:.
Maybe, I'll be ready by late spring or early summer.
Hmmmmm...haven't I been saying that for the last 4 years??? Never let it be said that I am not a champion procrastonator ;).
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Lookin GOod!!! Won't be long now.
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Just got off the phone w/ hvac guys.. they'll be here first thing in the morning... So, tomorrow will be finishing the open spots and mudding will start... Then a second application will happen Saturday..
Should be ready for trim next week.
-C
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Carl:
It really does look nice! You will end-up spend many blissful hours in that man cave!
Ken
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I had forgotten the electrical work you did up front. That's probably more outlets than I've seen on a single wall - ever. You'll never run out though!
Looks like it's coming together nicely. You'll be in there listening before you know it.
Bryan
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Thanks for your help, Bryan. It's not perfect but it's as close as I could get it... and already I can tell it's pretty isolated. Even with the open soffit and no mud, caulk or anything, I could barely hear any construction noise from upstairs towards the end of the day.
The benefits of the 6 outlets....
To provide a means to compare other gear, not just supply what I need... and I figured I'd have monoblocks at some point... and may need to compare monoblocks... As it stands, my main system will only utilize a couple of outlets.
Also, I will be doing some recording in this room and I wanted to be able to run amps and such easily... and be isolated from circuits with lights and other noisy appliances.
Lastly, I save on cables... I never should need anything longer than a few feet. ;)
-C
PS, there appear to be more outlets but in reality, they are rear speaker cables, coax to antenna, coax to cable tv, and cat6 cables too.
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Ok, another major milestone is complete: Dry wall
Baseboards and Doors have been ordered .. and scheduled to be installed by next Thursday.
Next steps after trim:
Painting; which I'm getting quotes for now... going with beige for office, dark red for sound room, black ceiling.
Tile for the bathroom floor (might do myself)
Electrical finishing (hookup service, install breakers, outlets, switches)
Plumbing finishing (install toilet, sink, etc.)
HVAC finishing (install exchange unit outside, thermostat, etc.)
Flooring (bamboo in office, carpet in sound room)
There may be a few steps in there I'm missing but those are the major ones, and in the right order.
Fun times!
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:mrgreen:
That is looking great Carl!! You got enough powder left over to make fride chikin tonight!
fwiw, In the planning stages of this project, Bryan answered about 50+ emails and a dozen phone calls with our questions about how to do this project correctly, all provided as "value added" to Carl's material purchases from Bryan's company Sensible Sound Solutions. That specific advice, plus his general acoustics oriented posts over the years helped us make a solid design. So another big thanks from me too Bryan!
Rich
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Wanna save a LOT of money? Do the painting yourself. It's not that hard - my wife can do it - seriously. For what you'll pay a pro painter, you can probably pay for almost 1/2 of the rest of the work and have money left over for music.
Bryan
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I've greatly appreciated the help from everyone.. There were many times when I needed interpretation of advice from Bryan and Rich applied the advice into detailed diagrams and plans. Plans quickly turned into 'ideals' and I worked out how exactly to apply the plans to the situation.
Similar to putting together an audio system, there are compromises when building a room in your home. You must obey local building codes, which require weird access panels, fireblock, and dictate other 'stuff' that can defeat your acoustical plans or just annoy you with things that don't make sense.
The goal for the sound room was simply the best possible sound. I envisioned this room after I learned basements could be done by the company building my house. I went and looked at an unfinished house w/ a basement and was in awe of what 'could be'. The seed was planted, watered, and just needed sunlight. ;)
I learned there are many levels of possibility so I started choosing based on what I heard in the room. It's in a hole in the ground, surround by concrete. The room is dead silent and there are no adjoining bedrooms. So, total and complete isolation wasn't required but I'm pretty close to having it anyway.
I also had the rest of the basement to finish and that required a plan that maximized space. The rear wall of the sound room dicated the size of my office.. which dictated the sizes of other rooms also. Everything was built with the soundroom as priority 1.
But even within the high priority of sound quality, the functional use of the room must be considered. Things like... how hard or easy is it to get in an out, where subs/gear can go so people (or me) don't trip over them, or wires.. Or, how do I get to my seat?
And then there are things like.. How will the space make me feel when I enter, sit, and enjoy? That's important to me since I spent 10's of thousands of dollars on this room. I want to be proud of it, not annoyed with it. It needs to look finished and function near-perfectly for me to be satisfied.
I also must have popcorn. BTW, if you ever decide to install a popcorn popper, you'll need filtered ventilation, metal piping, an good fan, switch for fan, wiring for popper, the popper, popcorn, little bags, scoop, etc., etc. All of a sudden a novelty turns into a little project. :shock:
I've also learned that everything I want is custom. There is no such thing as 'standard'.
Also, no matter how great my plans are, there is always something I haven't considered. I've gotten advice from all of the contractors and workers that have been here, providing opinion and practical advice on how things could go together. I have to know where they're going with an idea to see if it matches what I want.. Then I assess the contractor's skills are and make a decision for each situation.
So, it's been a long ride, nearly a year since I started. Bryan definitely got me on the right track.. and has been very flexible with the products. He hasn't been super flexible about his design ideas.. It's it and that's that! Which is what I expect from a good designer. :)
I have to give credit to Rich for helping me understand the concepts and then putting together the parts I couldn't connect.
And I also have to give credit to the folks that have actually worked on the basement. They've been very helpful in achieving the goals of this basement... and not mindless robots. I've gotten a lot of funny looks when they don't understand the wall isolation, green glue, etc.. but at least they're willing to do it the way I specified...
Thanks,
Carl
P.S. As to paint... It's 1100 sf of ceilings, walls, and trim, that need priming... With a black ceiling and dark red walls in the big room. I don't have that kind of vacation saved and I'm not that good of a painter.
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let me know who you go with for painting as I may use them myself... or I can give you some of my contacts and they may be good for you as well. there are a lot of folks just trying to keep their crews working at the moment... very good pricing is available...
room is looking good... I look forward to enjoying it :) especially since my own rooms are going to be sub-par very soon....
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Thanks, Shane... I'm getting the guy that did my sheetrock to quote the paint. He came highly recommended and so far I'm very pleased. You're right, everyone's looking for work and it's fairly competitive right now... but I may get a 2nd opinion if his price seem a bit high.
-C
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Well, painting started early this week. The non-soundroom walls are finished and today they're painting the trim.... and putting a second coat in the soundroom.
One setback was my special-ordered door didn't ship so I got a 'TEMP DOOR' as you'll see painted on it.. it'll be the place holder till the real door comes in... but that gives the ability to finish painting the trim. The door was completely sealed between frame and rough opening with silicon caulk in all of the gaps... Took 6 full tubes. :shock:
The bathroom has come together also... marble surrounds, cabinet, sink, plumbing, toilet.. Also, my electrician came and started the finalization of the electrical work. Since the sound room needs a second coat, we didn't do that yet.. (yes, I'm helping) but all the outlets are done in the rest of the basement.. and the associated breaker panel is half done. (I need more breakers)
Anyway.. on to the photos...
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Looking good Carl. You'll be listening to tunes in no time.
Bryan
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Very nice Carl.
The room will be completed in no time. Once completed you will be set for life and many years of audio bliss will be in your future. I know the anticipation has got to be driving you crazy. :rofl:
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Thanks, fellas. As far as the city is concerned, it'll be 'complete' by the end of March... at my final inspection.
Unfortunately, we've got a little ways to go before it's a 'sound room'... The room will have some gear in it but will need some furniture, a projector, and panels before it's truly complete... i.e. enjoyable. I'll get stuff burning in the outlets as soon as I can.
Thanks again for the encouragement and advice.
-Carl
PS I need to talk to you about cotton batting, bpape.
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Whatever you need, just let me know. If you want to talk over the weekend, let me know and I'll PM you my number.
Bryan
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I took some better photos.. We now have LIGHT! :) :) :)
I also found a way to have just 1 hole in the ceiling for lights.. the long and winding track.. of track lights.
There are 4 sets of lights on dimmers, run from a different panel than the gear.. rope light in the crown, can lights flanking the screen, sconces, and track lights.
All holes have been filled with silicon caulk..
It's still on target for end of March to be mostly complete... or at least inhabitable.
HVAC goes in tomorrow
Hardwoods go in for non sound room stuff this weekend.
Platforms happen Monday.
Carpet goes in the last week of March.
OK.. back to work..
-C
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Looks great!! Nice colors. Lets talk about the platform structure before it gets built. We wanna make sure we have enough open space under there for the sub, even if it is >100L. I think that framing members every 2 feet will work OK, but I'd like to lay it out in CAD for my own peace of mind. I'll do that tonight. There can't be any framing members interfering with the volume of the sub box. Maybe we can use the box as floor support? It will be very stout ;)
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I'm bringing 4 4'x4' pieces of MDF to you Thu or Friday.
I was planning on leaving a 4'x4' space for the sub. I could easily put a compressible gasket along the top of the sub to get support and have it decoupled. I have elastomeric foam I can use for that purpose.
I really couldn't be happier with the color. It looks so much better in person. There is a lot of echo in the room now.. that is unbearable and will need to be addressed quickly after inspection.
-C
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I think your 4x4 unsupported platform will be spongy for the pedestrians on top. Although they will be walking near the edge of the platform, so might be ok. Maybe put a crossbeam in the front walking area. If we want isolation, no touch would be best, but I don't know if it matters.
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In today's basement news...
HVAC final inspection happens today and likely electrical tomorrow.. then final-final Monday or Tuesday. After that I'm done with the city of Durham (I think). That'll be a relief.
I'm finishing cabinet doors, shelves, and a hand rail today. Building the seating platforms Monday.. And hopefully Rich and I will be building the sub tomorrow. (trying to find a woofer tester now)
Hardwoods go in this weekend and carpet for the sound room is the end of next week. The first full week of April should be move-in time. :) :)
-C
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All final inspections are completed and passed! :D
Hardwoods are in, mostly. The shoe moulding was backordered so, waiting on that.
Platforms are built. I'll have 9' by 54" to play with for seating area... That's the biggest I could go and still have some fore/aft flexibility.
Wish I could take photos.. but I can't find my camera and my wife's battery is dead. Guess I could do some work. :roll:
Today has been a good day. :)
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:yay2: hoooo-aaah!
Bryan
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I second Bryan (or is it quadruple?)
:yay2: :yay2:
Almost there!
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OK, battery charged.. here's some pix.. thanks for the bouncy boobies. :)
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SWEET!!!
That's just a bit different than your previous listening room :rofl:!
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What kind of wood is the flooring? It's gorgeous!
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Thanks, Allen. It's carbonized bamboo, vertically stranded. It looks better and a little lighter in person. There is a lot of stranding which is what I'd hoped for.. It wasn't very expensive ($4.50/sf installed) and eco-friendly to boot. (btw, please call me when you get a chance)
And yes, Steve.. I think it's a 'step up' from my last room. ;) I wouldn't have even had room for the screen in my last room... and it was instantly hot with 3 people in it. The hvac system is whisper-silent and should keep us pretty comfy as we compare gear. I may have to bias it more but it seems about right so far.
I'll get more photos of the platform project at some point. This weekend the hardwoods are to be compelted.. Then paint touch-ups need to happen at some point.. not sure when exactly.. probably after carpet... but the little scuffs and holes here and there are bugging me.
Well, back to work..
-C
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Magnifique! The floor looks awesome! Everything looks great.
What's the rent? :D
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:beer: case a week?
Bryan
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(http://www.ledeffect.co.nz/images/signs/SignWow.jpg)
Looks good Carl...... :drool:
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Good choice on the bamboo Carl. We love the stuff we have. The best part about the bamboo is it's harder and tougher than Oak, yet costs less and is renewable. You can't to wrong with it.
I think we ended up with the horizontal grain so it looks more bambooey but with the vertical it looks almost like traditional hardwood. Most people won't even realize that it's bamboo. You'rs also came out darker than the batch we got. Is it Supreme Bamboo or another brand?
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Yes, it's the 'Supreme' bamboo.. I got the 'carbonized' version which is when they heat the bamboo, causing the sugar to cook and darken. I think it might make someone look twice to figure out what it is. ;)
I got it from the same place as you, good deal... thanks for the recommendation! 8)
-C
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Carl, where did you get the flooring from? It looks awesome.
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Carl, Looks like a dream! Great choices on all of the surface treatments.
If you don't mind me asking what is the source on the bamboo? I bought some engineered hardwood from Lumber Liquidators a couple of years ago. It is okay but if I had to do it again I would chose differently.
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I used Lumber Liquidators.. $2.39/sf for the flooring and it looks really nice. It is not engineered or even stained. It's solid bamboo, all the way through. I'm using a subfloor made of Advantech (3/4" T&G particle-plywood).. and that's on top of this plasticy dimpled sheet of material made by Delta.
The system creates an airspace beneath the floor and creates a vapor barrier. I laid felt over that system and then the bamboo was nailed into the plywood subfloor.
I was worried that there would be some give since the plywood is very true and the concrete has low/high spots.. I even put a couple of screws in 2 springy spots but I don't think it was necessary. The floor feels very solid, no spring in my step other than my own. ;)
As cool as the bamboo is, the carpet is going to be even better. 8)
-C
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I finally got a chance to sneak a peak, man o man is it beautiful down there. The pictures are nice, but don't give the light of reality. The wood is very warm and inviting, and the music room is very cozy feeling, but HUGE! Much bigger now that it is painted dark colors. The painters are perfectionists, or Carl is perfectionist and the painters hate him... :lol: But they are doing a perfect job. It is not a slap job, the decorating is very well integrated and "of a piece."
The carpet took down the echos a lot. But there is a ton of treatment on the docket, like 250 sq ft of surface treatment, plus bass trapping. Should be very sweet. I'm looking forward to helping move the speakers down into the lair in a couple days/week.
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Almost there Carl. Time to let your work pay off.
Bryan
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Now that the carpet's in, the floors are completely finished.. .It's soooo nice just to be able to walk down there without using special shoes. :)
I plan to have a little move-in 'party' next week/weekend. Everyone/anyone is welcome.
The soundroom still as a little more to go.. acoustic panels must be built yet. But also I need power cables for the platforms themselves... I also have other cables to wire there.. I can't find 2 power cords I need.. Why are 90* angle AC plugs so hard to find?
When the sub's in place and the wires are all done I can carpet the platforms.
Then.. I'll be ordering seats and projector... and starting the acoustic panel project. So, the sound room won't be really ready to listen seriously until late May...
I'll plan a G2G in June. :)
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I plan to have a little move-in 'party' next week/weekend. Everyone/anyone is welcome.
Then.. I'll be ordering seats and projector... and starting the acoustic panel project. So, the sound room won't be really ready to listen seriously until late May...
I'll plan a G2G in June. :)
Is this a 'move-in' party...as in helping you MOVE stuff ;)???
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I so wish I could just take off and jump a plane. I'd love to hang out and help you get settled in.
Enjoy
Bryan
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But also I need power cables for the platforms themselves... I also have other cables to wire there.. I can't find 2 power cords I need.. Why are 90* angle AC plugs so hard to find?
I will look after this for you. Give me a bit.....
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As always John, you rock. Thanks a millon. :)
-C
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Thought I'd add some more photos as things get finished... I will be moving in over the course of this week and weekend... including the 'reference system'. It will be setup in a temporary fashion to figure out how it should all go before carpeting the platforms and building a rack for gear.
Anyone that has a knack/interest in organizing and setting things up are welcome to come over this weekend. :)
-C
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I'd love to but it's a bit of a drive for me. Sorry.
Love the carpet Carl.
Bryan
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Wish you could check it out, Bryan... Maybe one day when it's all dialed-in you can work something out. 8)
Glad you like the carpet.. it's kind of retro but kind of modern.. I love that carpet, it really brings the room together... to quote 'the Dude'.
-C
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:drool: nuf said.
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Carl, that place looks awesome! I am so glad we're doing a G2G at my place before we do one in your new space. You are so going to spoil all of us.
Are you coming by this Saturday?... let me know if you need directions - I know it's been awhile. Hope to see you soon!
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I plan to make it, Mike. I need to hear those new Grover's.. I'm still deciding whether to participate. Money seems to be flying out the window lately... but I do want to hear them. I may bring my Reality cables and compare if we have time/if that works out. I know how tough it is to do these things.
Thanks for the compliments!
Carl
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Very Nice Carl!!!!
D
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Hey man looking good. Your gonna be one happy puppy. Great job.
charles
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Thanks again!
We've officially moved into the basement.. so my small business is now operating out of the office.. and the sound room has a working system in it! :) :)
I had a significant modification to my preamp performed by our local pro, Sol.. It has about 20 new caps in it, most of which are Blackgates. With the new outlets, new wiring, breakers, and caps.. I must say the sound was pretty horrific upon first listen... and I did have a bit of a 'what have I done' moment. But now that the system has been playing for 2 days, things are sounding pretty good. whew! I expect more break-in.. It's nice to be able to play at a reasonable volume 24/7 and not hear it throught the whole house... or even one floor above. You can kind of hear a little but you have to try... and it has to be dead silent upstairs.
Shane brought some cables to try.. I was so impressed with the JPS on Mike's system that I just had to do the comparison in my system. I swapped the Grover graphites for JPS Superconductor3's on the DAC to Pre and enjoyed an immediate and huge improvement in every way. I have Reality cables between pre and amp and had Reality SC's to the speakers.. Then I swapped in the 'SC+' biwired speaker cables last night I think they're called.. and they're about as good as the Reality's but different. I think the Reality's gel better for vocals and image better but the JPS has better musical detail.... Not a stark difference but definitely a difference. I attribute the change to biwires.. They always seem to have a phase issue for me.
Next is the Superconductor 3 speaker cables.. I'll do that this evening. If they're as much of an improvemnt as I've heard at Rich's and Mike's, then I gotta figure out how to come up with some cash. ;) I still have hopes that the Reality's will be 'good enough'.. but am doubtful.
Keep in mind these are just quick and dirty comparisons in my room, using my own methods, and the room is still untreated for upper mids and highs... but it already sounds pretty good... not great... but good enough to hear the kinds of differences these cables do.
I'm very happy with the tuner, btw.. Having that is awesome.. and if the program material is decent, the sound quality is surprisingly good. I listened to WSHA all day yesterday and there were some moments I had to just go listen.. BTW, it's a nice distraction having the pleasure room right next to the work room. ;)
-C
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Congratuations. You finally made it. It will take time to tune it up, but that's the fun part!
Here is a snap of the caps replaced in the Mac C220. These are WIMA films and Rubycon YK electros. How many do you count? I got 75 :shock:
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With all the new wire ,pre with new caps especially Blackgates and everything else considered into the new mancave, I wouldn't pass judgement on any component be it wires, amps,pre's, whatever for at least a month to let everything settle in. I know your not rushing to any judgements but play that system 24/7 for a month or more then maybe start critical listening. Go in with the mindset of "whew we're almost there" a month of burn in and Walla. :rofl: a glass of scotch, Kick back ,get familiar with your new sound then look to upgrade. :lol:
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ha, I hadn't actually seen the caps out of the pre yet.. so, that's too funny.. I didn't realize so many had been bypassed... When you said a handful, you meant a man-sized handful! :o
Out of all of those, there were about 20 that weren't bypassed that were replaced with good stuff.
It is getting more and more detailed/resolving each day... and the sound I'm sure will continue to balance out.. I am doing the 24/7 thing for sure.. and I know it's not critical-listening worthy yet.. but I have to say the JPS cables have done things for me that very few others have in the past... And I listen to how it is for a few songs before changing anything if I do any comparos... and just keep my ears open for whatever changes happen.. so far what I've heard is consistent with what I've heard in 2 different systems... I am indeed impatient.. I can't help it. ;)
-C
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It's been a long dry spell since you tore down your system - when was that? Spring 08? You're entitled to get a little excited. You're an audiophile again!
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I have to admit that those JPS SC3 speaker cables sounded damn nice on Saturday. I'm still trying to figure out how I can rearrange my room to avoid the long speaker cable run. Long ICs to the amp? Building an under-the-floor location for all components? Adding a small addition to the room? If I thought I could get away with it, I'd replace the fireplace logs with component shelving and put the components there. Would that be cool or what? (like my wife would let me get away with that ;-)
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Wow. That's gotta be scary Carl. BlackGates raw out of the box can be pretty nasty and take a LONG time to break in. 500-700 hours and you'll really know what you have.
Bryan
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I'd replace the fireplace logs with component shelving and put the components there. Would that be cool or what? (like my wife would let me get away with that ;-)
That would be cool. A lot cooler than a pile of logs. :lol: You'll never know until you try it without asking first.
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I AGREE!!!
Just go ahead and do it, Mike...what trouble could you possibly get into??? :twisted:
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You'll never know until you try it without asking first.
How do ya think I got the GTG at my place to begin with :rofl:
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With all the new wire ,pre with new caps especially Blackgates and everything else considered into the new mancave, I wouldn't pass judgement on any component be it wires, amps,pre's, whatever for at least a month to let everything settle in. I know your not rushing to any judgements but play that system 24/7 for a month or more then maybe start critical listening. Go in with the mindset of "whew we're almost there" a month of burn in and Walla. :rofl: a glass of scotch, Kick back ,get familiar with your new sound then look to upgrade. :lol:
Well, caps are still breaking in... sounds harsher every day.. I had a taste at the very beginning of stellar imaging and a nice, big whole sound stage but lately it's been getting worse... I'm used to this from other major wiring/cap upgrades, though.. and usually the taste at the beginning is close to what you end up with. So, I'll be pretty happy if that comes true again. In the meantime, it's encouraged me to do the room treatment sooner rather than later.
Panels will be ordered early next week. :)
-C
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Rich is bringing his masterpiece of design in the next half hour or so.. the ginormous HT sub.. "Balls Deep" as I affectionately call it. It will be inserted into the back of my rear platform soon. Carpet guys are coming tomorrow to finish it off. ;)
Well, better run.. gotta get stuff together, organized, etc.
-C
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Gotta have pics!
Bryan
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I have 1.. installing the sub.. thanks to Rich again.. this was an undertaking I would have no clue where to start.. Also thanks to Shane for helping me figure out the wiring again. It was wired right,then I re-wired it right.. then found out the preamp outs are dealing with a lot of capacitance.. so, not sure how I'm going to overcome that yet... I guess turn up the preamp out! ;)
-C
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Is the amp back with the sub? If it is, you might look at a pair of baluns to convert to XLR and then back to unbalanced. That will also buffer the preamp from the capacitance of the cable.
By the way, I think you need a bigger driver ;)
Bryan
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Why do you think you have cable capacitance issue?
What kind of IC wire are you using to the subamp and how long? Belden LC-1 coax is extremely low 12pF capacitance, $3/ft
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/audio/index.htm
This is for the Onkyo LFE output right? Sol can design a simple opamp buffer for you. I can build it if it's simple.
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I bought the LC-1 subwoofer cable from BlueJeans.. There seems to be good signal using the fixed output of my preamp.. I'm just testing things now.. The Onkyo isn't down there yet. I'll know more when I get it all sorted.
The platforms are carpeted now. I'm going to vacuum, and photograph.. then, the seats should get here anytime now..
-C
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OK, ready for seats!
The sub, she rocks, btw. :)
Also, the red cords are rope lights that will be nailed down soon.. and are on a dimmer.
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Fine looking power cords if I do say so myself. :D
(The rest looks good also!) :rofl:
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The black violet really looks cool. If I had a band, I'd make all of our cords that color.
It's delivering power to the sub now.. it's a'pumpin' with a full supply of Black Sand goodness.. from the cryo'd panel, through the cryo'd romex, to the fancy ATL outlet, then through the power cord all the way to the amp. The electricity is truly delivered with care. No corners were cut on power. I even ran a separate run from the main panel using copper wire just for the equipment. I wish I'd replaced the aluminum crap for the rest of the house while I was at it.. sigh.
Thanks again, John. You hooked me up with some of things that really soothed my 'nervosa'. I can't do any better than what we did.
In other basement news...
Theater seats are here and going in...
One snafu has already been encountered.. the seats don't really straddle the sub like I'd hoped. It lets the backs of the chairs suspend off the back a couple of inches.. even though it's fully supported on the platform, it looks weird. But I really don't care since it's fully supported.
One row is in and working. I've got help coming for the next 2 rows.
-C
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OK...I'm officially going to be too embarassed to ever have a G2G at my house, now ](*,)!!!
My poor house looks like a 2-room country shack compared to Rich's, Mike's, and now Carl's. Do any of you guys want to adopt a poor audiophile????
The room looks great, Carl, even in pictures. I'm sure it's amazing live and in color.
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Looking good Carl! You'll be in there listening in no time and all that work will be a distant memory.
Bryan
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Theater seats are here and going in...
What did you buy? I have had my eye on some Berklin stuff. http://www.berkline.com/ht/ (http://www.berkline.com/ht/)
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Very cool looking Carl - great job!
George
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Awesome! The sub driver looks cool coming out of the carpet.
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Should the name of this thread be converted to "the Basement Continues" or "The Basement Nears Completion?"
I'm not sure which looks the most like Heaven...Wrigley Field, Fenway Park or Carl's basement.
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I got a small taste of the new sub yesterday. It is quite potent, but it blends in with music nicely. My 10yo sat in the chair above it and started laughing.
With the dedicated theater seating, lighting, music PC all set up it is really coming together. The stuffed leather seats and carpet already make the room sound better than my living room.
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Thanks for the kind words, Rich.. It's definitely coming together but there are a lot of loose ends to be tied up. (as you'd predicted ;) ) I'm planning to work on as much as I can tomorrow... Should get the receiver setup and working, stuff cleaned out/organized, drilling a new hole to fish some wires.. etc.
The sub is exactly as I'd hoped.. really fills the room (and house) with bass. It's not that sloppy weird bass either... just thick, rich bass that can blend into anything. It has punch when there's punch in the music... it recovers quickly (is fast), and is a good do-all type sub.
And yes, it does create a physical entertainment zone under the person in the rear middle row. ;)
To Allen's point, a new thread might be in order very soon. The only (major) remaining component of the original project is the panels. But.. only once the panels are completed. ;)
-C
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Looks like your getting closer Carl..... 8)
Don't forget your entrance signs... :clap:
(http://www.after5catalog.com/images/products/125-08001B1.jpg)
or....this...
(http://www.after5catalog.com/images/products/125-08102B1.jpg)
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I definitely like the first one. Anything goes!
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I definitely like the first one. Anything goes!
Like in Las Vegas.... :rofl:
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I definitely like the first one. Anything goes!
Like in Las Vegas.... :rofl:
Hey Chris whats up ? Miss you guys at the Rave meetings.
charles
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Just a quick update... since last post I've gotten the entire 7.1 channels setup and working, along with a new projector (thanks again HTDoc), stereo subs (big thanks to Rich), and got the speakers somewhat dialed-in.
I work in spurts. But we got it good enough to watch movies and really enjoy it all. I'm still 'dialing-in'.. and the panel project is under-way. It all works well, looks and sounds great. I can't imagine how good it's going to sound with the treatments. Sweet Mamasita it will be an all-out-ear-orgy! :D/ =P~
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Congrats Carl.
If I may suggest...
Start with the broadband bass absorption and live with that for a while.
Add in reflection panels slowly and in small amounts. Since 2 channel is a priority in the room, we don't want to overdo it and kill it too much. The KISS principle definitely applies.
Once you get all of that done, then we can start looking at diffusion for things like ceiling reflections, rear half of the room, etc. Your room is big enough to definitely benefit.
Would love to see some pics...
Bryan
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First I'm going to measure the room and see what bass frequencies need tuning, then apply a fix for that specifically. I may not need broadband trapping but we'll see. I have a pretty good idea of where I've got some bass issues but I need to see it on an RTA and find out if it matches what I'm hearing and/or the room calculations Rich and I did a long time ago. If it all lines up, I'll be happy to know there is one thing about this hobby that is scientifically do-able. :)
I won't have too much absorption.. Besides, that's simply not possible in my opinion. As long as it's not totally anechoic I'll be happy. ;) But I will have a lot of diffusion with some home made stuff...
I've got a fairly large project in front of me to build panels for this room.. I'll experiment with them before finishing them.. that's good advice and may save some work... But there is a visual requirement for me in this room also. (The 'CAF') So, it will be symetrical and look nice. (part of the psycho-acoustic effect) ;)
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Just remember that there's more to treating a room than reflections and frequency response. The biggest thing IMO is to get the decay time curve right for the entire spectrum. That's going to require some broadband bass control. I'm not saying not to pay attention to specific issues but broadband is part of the equation and may solve some of the FR issues at the same time.
Let me know if I can help with anything. I'll be glad to work through it with you.
Bryan
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Good points.. I just happen to have 5 24" bass traps sitting in my garage right now.. It wouldn't be hard to experiment! ;) But that stuff is dirty. All I need is a little time and gumption...
-C
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Todays final sweep after 1st attempt at speaker positioning. They are very close to front wall, to me it sounds too chesty and flat. But tone is good. Line of sight to the mhe movie screen limits possible speaker positions. The further out from the wall they come, the farther to sidewall they must go.
Overall it looks pretty good. The bumps at 40 and 80 are room. Not bad, +/- 8 on first try. Room dimensions matter!
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Thanks a million for bringing your expertise today, Rich. It was such a treat to have you here and help learn some really cool stuff about how bass works.
I've been playing with tow ever since you left.. It had a 'dry center' or sounded too separated to me, playing real music. Kind of thin and dead. I did move them out toward the sidewalls just a little tiny bit and towed in more.. and now it's getting a more 'congealed' presentation. ;) I'll keep working at it but it's sounding a good bit better. I'm thinking about putting the subs back in now.. just to see what that does... But I really want to get some traps done too.
-C
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I got 1 ceiling panel mounted, with the help of my wife.. wow, what a trooper.
More tomorrow..
-C
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Pull them out from the front wall as long as you can keep say 18" or a little more from driver centers to side wall. Use a 2-3" panel directly to the side of each speaker to help with SBIR issues. That will tame some of the chestiness.
A lot of what you're hearing now is boundary related AND a lack of broadband bass control. The stiffer walls you now have don't give you as much absorption as single standard drywall walls and you're hearing it.
Bryan
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Bass traps are going up as I type.. I made them to fill each corner of my room, floor to (soffit) ceiling.
They are 2' x 7' for 3 corners, and 1 rear is 2' x 6' 4" because there's a little box there for some hvac stuff.
I used 2" OC703 and layered them from back to front:
1-6", 2-12", 1-18" wide, and 1-24"
Front to back each trap is 12" at its deepest point to the corner.
I'm almost out of OC703! :) So, I'm really happy it all worked out. Right now the frames are sitting and waiting for fabric.. The frame will basically just be a cover for the fiberglass... I can remove it and add different types of material if I decide to later. Right now I'm enjoying the absorption... very nice, I don't think I want to add anything...
The room sounds better than ever right now, very emotional and engaging... The whole thing really came together when I sat and listened after the last trap went in... and wow... just amazing. It completes the room.
I still plan to do corner treatments for the upper soffit/ceiling corners and I think I'm done for a while. whew!
-C
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Very nice Carl. Truly amazing what treating a room can do, even more so when the room is designed with acoustics in mind. I foresee many happy hours in there. :)