Author Topic: McCormack DNA-500 amp listening impressions  (Read 14168 times)

Offline SteveB

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McCormack DNA-500 amp listening impressions
« on: June 20, 2009, 07:54:30 AM »
Rich--now that you have had the pleasure of listening to the 500....any thing you would be willing to share with the group? I have read the reviews and have always been curious about the character of this large amp. Just wondered what your take was with your equipment and listening set up.
Thanks

Offline Carlman

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Re: McCormack DNA-500 amp listening impressions
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2009, 08:39:19 AM »
I've only heard at Rich's and all I can say is I look forward to hearing it in my room.  :drool:
I'm not really looking to change amps but it's the first amp I've heard in a while that's got me thinking about it.
-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline richidoo

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Re: McCormack DNA-500 amp listening impressions
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2009, 10:05:32 AM »
Scrumptious! I really love it.  I will still try to audition the Halos here, if possible, but I know I have a solution at hand now. It is a nice feeling to know I can get that kind of performance and gain that much in the system for the going price of DNA-500. I also learned that SMcAudio is performing mods to the amp should I feel the urge later.  To be honest I didn't feel the need to change anything during the week i have been playing it.

I typed in a long review only to have the keyboard "back" button on my new laptop eat it. So i will try to regurgitate the same thing again with skinnier fingers this time.

I was most concerned about the high freqeuencies, because I had never heard a SS amp in this price range that got them right. This one has no distortion in the highs, they sound tonally natural. They do have the extra zip of SS transient power and snappines, which is not entirely natural because sound is attenuated moving through the air, and recording mics are placed closer than ears at a live concert. I think most engineers don't have ears for natural high frequency texture, or they have lost so much hearing by the time they are experienced enough to produce  or master a recording that too many unnatural sounding high freq records get through.   But the DNA doesn't make it any worse, it just gives it up as is, holding nothing back the way an output transformer would. No high freq distortion, 500W and $3.5k! That was a very happy moment for me. Salvation at hand!

Midrange is very natural, transparent, uncolored. Swapping in different sources and preamps and even wires during the week really showed what a chameleon the amp is. It is nearly perfectly transparent to whetever precedes it. That explains why previous auditions at trade shows sucked. It was not the amp. I always seem to want to blame the amp. I must have something against amps. From the tube mindframe they have  huge effect on the sound and are so sensitive to matching, I have become conditioned to blame everything on the amp.   It will be a relief to loose that suspicion. The DNA is blameless.

Bass is huge, detailed, thick and penetrating, wonderful overall. I can hear the acoustic reverb around the bass intro on Miles' So What as well as any tube amp. Only the Spectron gave more bass detail, which is exquisite, but also same detail at higher frequencies which is unsuitable for my speakers. The DNA detail is never distracting, but I can listen in as deeply as I desire, there is always more in there if I want it. Less if I don't want it. Just like a tube amp. So natural. Back to the bass, the really nice thing about the DNA is the physical presence of bass in the room. The bass is very thick and solid, while staying detailed. The Spectron was so detailed, but did not penetrate and thump you on rock or dance music. This physicality is imprtant for getting the feeling of satisfaction and PRaT, and the most out of speakers. You need pretty honkin tube amps to drive bass like this. The thickness is probably warmth distortion above that of the extreme precision of the Spectron, but I like it.

String chamber music is the teller for me. Close miked modern hires recordings of the best groups playing dissonant modern compositions like Shostakovich, Bartok, Schnitter will tell a lot about a system. It was dynamic, open and spacious. Rich body and impact from violent bowing and cello accents. The amp really brings the music to life better than any amp I've tried. All the ugly metallic bow sounds are intact, which any violin nut will require. But not any uglier than reality.  With a tubular preamp stage in front to guard against bad dithering, or wrong mic choices on a few recordings, it will be a perfect amp for chamber music, symphonies and Madonna as well.  I have a disc that I read about in stereophile, European DJ Trentmoller. It's all MIDI synth music, but creative and entertaining. It really pushes the system to the extremes too. It has Stupid tweeter tricks, with synthesized 15kHz and higher pops and snaps as musical elements in the song, along with synth bass and drum beats that are perfectly undistorted and merciless in shaking the house. The DNA really came alive playing that. No strain, no stress, just "here it is. What's next?"  Sympony music, piece of cake. The massed strings will benefit from a good tube preamp, but the thickness of the bass and tympanies was really awesome and satisfying.  Brass sound good too.

It runs a little warm, to be expected with goodly dose of class A bias. But not so hot that I could not hold my hand on the heatsink. The heatsinks are very large, so they dissipate a lot of heat. Probably 300W if i had to guess. And it sounds like it. It only weighs 75 pounds, which is a lot by some standards, but the MAC is 110, and even tube RM9 is 60. It was dead silent. A slihgt hiss is audible from tweeter only within 1 inch. More than that and there is nothing. I did get some hum later in theweek, but I had a nest of cables and various equipment of questionable pedigree plugged in.

Mike also loaned me the Running Springs Jaco conditioner. Like him, I preferred to use it with low current devices like sources. I did not like it with the amp, which matches my previous experience with Haley. I do like Equitech and would love to try that with this amp. Getting there, one piece at a time.

Many thanks to Mike for the loan. I can't imagie what a sacrifice it is let someone drive away with your crack pipe like that, for so long. At least you had vacation time at the Lake to hold you over.

Thanks to Chris for encouraging me to check it out again.

Now I just have to find a sample to call my own, and a financing plan. I will also try to hear the Halo, if possible.
Rich

lonewolfny42

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Re: McCormack DNA-500 amp listening impressions
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2009, 11:55:23 AM »
Quote
Scrumptious! I really love it.

Good review Rich....thought you'd would love it.

I love it as well....but "no room at the inn".... :?

One of these days.... 8)

Works very well with Salk HT3's....(and many other speakers)



And by the way Rich....

               
                       

                         Enjoy your day....see you in a week.... :beer:

                                       Chris

Offline stereofool

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Re: McCormack DNA-500 amp listening impressions
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2009, 12:30:08 PM »
Quote
Scrumptious! I really love it.

And by the way Rich....
               
                       
 

I second that emotion!! Happy Birthday, Rich  :beer: :D/ :yay2:!
Steve
Have you ever noticed.... Anyone going slower than you is an idiot...and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?

Offline richidoo

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Re: McCormack DNA-500 amp listening impressions
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2009, 01:45:58 PM »
Thank you!!  But we need a few more candles than that Chris...   :roll:    I have nice amaretto/baileys cheesecake homemade by our neighbor and a couple CD sized BD presents to open.  :drool:   I hope that new book "Get Better Sound" is among the goodies.

OK wanna hear something funny?  You guys know how I like to blame any problem in my audio system on the amplifier... here's a doozy:

I tried using my new Pass B1 diy preamp with the McCormack, but couldn't get it to work. The signal coming through the amp was very low level and very distorted, kinda like what the amp sounds like with a signal applied, but not even turned on.   But it was turned on. I even took the preamp over to Sols where he tested it on the scope, it looked perfect. 3V output into 10kOhms with <.05% distortion, mostly 2nd and 3rd order, not bad for $100 of parts. Of course, I blamed the transformer input of the DNA for screwing up the B1. But at least this time I kept quiet. I knew there had to be a richidoo factor involved, there always is....

The B1 PCB is screwed to the ceiling of the wooden chassis box and the floor is removable to make prettier wood joints up top. And the knobs and jacks are centered on the midline of the box, so it looks the same upside down. Turns out I installed the power switch upside down (late night DIY.) I don't have hardware to attach the floor yet, so been using the preamp upside down anyway, so the switch works as expected, up is ON. But after a round of mods I attached the bottom panel and started using it right side up. Uh-OH!  The switch is still upside down!  After a couple good nights' rest and using it upside down again without the bottom attached I finally figured it out. I pushed the switch down, and presto, beautiful music!  :D

So now with the B1 (aka Vertical Palindrome Preamp) driving the McCormack I am enjoying quite a nice sound. I think this is my favorite sound of the week, surpassing even MC-220, Oracle DAC/pre and GG preamp. Not a big surprise because there's nothing to it, just a buffer, Alps pot, and some nice passives and that's it. Sol's hates JFETs, and they did sound pretty bad in the stock B1, so he prescribed new bipolar transistors to replace the JFets. They make almost as big a difference as turning it on! hehe   

Sol and I audition his own amp circuit tweeks a lot. So last week I played the McCormack for him without telling what it was. He didn't know anything about McCormack. He did not complain of the JFet input stage, which goes to show Steve McCormacks genius, if he can fool Sol even when using devil parts. Sol said, "this is a great sounding amplifier." I've not ever heard him ever praise someone elses amp so highly.
Thanks
Rich

lonewolfny42

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Re: McCormack DNA-500 amp listening impressions
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2009, 02:09:44 PM »
Quote
But we need a few more candles than that Chris...

Hard to find a "Happy Birthday" photo with 44 candles... :rofl:

Thanks for the update on your preamp....
........my choice would still be a tube preamp with the 500.

The only passive that I own...a BENT...does work well with a tube amp...
........just so-so with a SS.

Keep listening...and trying different "things"...its a good adventure Rich. 8)

Offline _Scotty_

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Re: McCormack DNA-500 amp listening impressions
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2009, 03:42:48 PM »
richidoo,just a thought about bass. Have you ever heard bass at a live unmiked performance from a trap set,kettle drum,bass drum in a marching band or the big bass drum under-pinning an symphony orchestra that had thickness or thump? When I have experienced bass under the aformentioned conditions it has impacted me with a wave of energy which then passed by me and was gone,with no thickness or weight.
I have experienced weight and the feeling of my entire body vibrating in sympathy with notes played by a pipe organ in a church or where a synthesizer was being played. I suspect that the Spectron was faithfully reproducing the information it received. When  I was using a digital/switching amp I  had to play around with how my loudspeakers energized the room by moving them slightly closer to the room boundary immediately behind them to even things out. The Spectron may also be reproducing just what it is fed and is showing that bass is being lost somewhere in the chain of equipment preceding it. The interconnects used in the system can very easily bias the spectrum towards the treble or the bass. If the spectrum being produced by the source component has no treble bias and there is still an emphasis on the highs I would suspect the ICs. I have had good success using Reality Cables ICs with digital amps. Once again you are stuck trying to balance all the damn components of the system to produce a flat spectrum of energy in the room without a bias towards one end or the other.  Are we having any fun yet? It sounds like the DNA-500 is a better match for the cabling you are using and maybe the components in the system as well.
Scotty

Offline TomS

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Re: McCormack DNA-500 amp listening impressions
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2009, 05:52:53 PM »
Congrats on the b'day and a DNA-500!

BTW, Chris is right on the tube preamp.  I used a Joule Electra LA-150 with my DNA-500 and it was a heavenly combination.   It's fairly low gain for a tube pre and complemented many of the desirable attributes of the McCormack.  The LA-150 seemed to bring the slightly "laid back" nature of the DNA a little bit more into the open, yet without going too far.

...oh, BTW I have a pair of Bryston 7BSST Squared amps in the house now and the new "squared" series is a must listen too.  Not like Bryston of old for sure.  I'm really looking forward to a comparison with my mono F4's at some point when I get a little more time (some day).

Tom
PS Audio Directstream DAC, PS Audio BHK Signature Preamp, Nagra Classic Amp, Focal Sopra No 2's, SVS SB16 Ultra

Offline richidoo

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Re: McCormack DNA-500 amp listening impressions
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2009, 07:56:06 PM »
Thanks Chris...  you know I'll never stop.

The cheezecake was goooooood, but so rich I feel siiiiick... haha   I got that "Get better sound" book and Floyd Tooles book "Sound Reproduction," as well as a CD.  When I showed my 11yo the Get Better Sound book he smacked his head in sarcastic disgust   :duh  then the middle kid 9yo threw his head back laughing said Ohhhh NOooooooo!! The girl just kept eating.   Then I opened the CD, it was this:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=211843 Check out the samples..
My wife said, "Oh your gonna love that one Henry, it's "yo" music." "Yo music" means evil gangsta rap. It's like toilet talk the kids start crackingup and pulling their pants down halfway and walking yo. He started doing his mouth rap drum machine sound effects and break dancing. But wait til he hears it. haha  Fun BD...

Scotty thanks. Lots of live music in my past. Even marching bands, sorry to say... I know what you mean about live bass. You feel the music, not the air pressure, unless there are big bass guitar cabinets. haha But usually those are large venues, even small club is usually 10k+ cu ft. In a house big speakers are bound to make a little pressure. The DNA makes a ton more pressure than the Spectron. I like the feeling, I think the Spectron was technically the best bass I have heard from these speakers. The DNA bass is denser, more physical presentation, at least with same speakers and wires, almost as detailed, closer to natural live amount of detail, not too much. But otherwise it is pretty neutral, and much better for me higher up. My midrange driver is some combination of beryllium and titanium so it just isn't compatible with the spectron's lean digital aura. Even slow wires couldn't pull it back enough in the upper mids. Not harsh, but like you said so accurate the detail on a fast speaker is just overwhelming and distracting. With larger paper drivers it would be dynamite. The DNA is a fun amp, clean enough for serious work, but thick enough for party feeling. We'll see how it evolves. Usually when I decide on something especially if I mention it online, then something else drops out of the sky totally different. Like Toms Brystons....  :rofl:

Hey Tom! I didn't buy a DNA yet, this is mdconnelly's I'm just borrowing, but it is nice to finally find an amp I really like. I am intrigued about the new Brystons, still never heard them in a real system. 28BSST not my fav at RMAF08. But good to know you're checking them out. Will you be writing a little review?  I have 9 pin and 8 pin stereo Aikido boards. Do you think Aikido is open and airy but still controlled enough for DNA? Thanks
Rich

lonewolfny42

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Re: McCormack DNA-500 amp listening impressions
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2009, 08:21:47 PM »
Quote
The DNA bass is denser, more physical presentation, at least with same speakers and wires, almost as detailed, closer to natural live amount of detail, not too much.

To me, the DNA-500 always sounded very close to another amp that I enjoy...a vintage Krell KSA-100.
The 500 has more power, and a better high end, but both do bass very well....and they both can power any speakers.

Photo Link....Krell

Offline TomS

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Re: McCormack DNA-500 amp listening impressions
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2009, 04:13:30 AM »
Rich,

I am quite a ways from writing a Bryston review since my room isn't quite back together yet after some problems (a long story).  I can't say I liked the sound much at RMAF either (didn't listen long on Thiel 3.7's) but I heard the whole setup on a pair of Avalons in someone's home and it was pretty amazing.  Definitely worth a listen.

I still think the DNA-500 is a flaming bargain at its street price and among the very best SS I've heard for many situations that need the power.  I spoke with Steve several times and at the time he thought the upgrade offerings (carbon(?) wire, etc) were a very marginal improvement.  He really felt he was already very close to the limits of that particular design though the smaller DNA's could benefit from them.  Perhaps he has more in the bag of tricks now that makes it worthwhile.

I've only used the Aikido as a fixed voltage gain stage for my F4's (doesn't have a volume pot) so can't comment much on it in comparison to other preamps, other than to say it is just very neutral.  The combo of it and the F4's was just a bit softer and ever so much sweeter and fuller than the F5 when I used them on the Emerald Physics CS2's top end.  Not quite as see through transparent and clean and extended as the F5, but still very good.  For me it was a toss up.  The Aikido/F4 was probably closer to the seductive sound I got from Zybar's one off XA-J amp, which I loved.

Glad you've found a nice combo there.  I bet if the road ended there you'd probably be really happy.  I know I could have lived with that amp for a long time (well, until I had a fling with the Joule Electra VZN100's :rofl:).

Tom
PS Audio Directstream DAC, PS Audio BHK Signature Preamp, Nagra Classic Amp, Focal Sopra No 2's, SVS SB16 Ultra

Offline mdconnelly

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Re: McCormack DNA-500 amp listening impressions
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2009, 07:10:56 AM »
Aw, you guys have me missing my baby!  And on Father's Day no less!

I've had the DNA-500 for a couple years now and have never once felt tempted.   I replaced a Levinson 331 with the DNA after having tried a couple different amps and read about many, many more (hence the 'N' in AN).   At the time I decided on the McCormack, there were many leading the DNA-cheer over on AC - in fact, it was when George (Zybar) was a very big fan of this amp.

Are there better amps?  Probably, but not likely at the street price of the DNA-500, and most definitely not if you have speakers that need power to strut (like my Aerial 10Ts and Rich's Ushers).

Offline Carlman

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Re: McCormack DNA-500 amp listening impressions
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2009, 09:14:20 AM »
Are there better amps?  Probably, but not likely at the street price of the DNA-500, and most definitely not if you have speakers that need power to strut (like my Aerial 10Ts and Rich's Ushers).

That's my biggest 'concern' about listening to this amp.. the Piega's seem to enjoy power also.  Like I need another temptation at this point! ;)

Happy Father's Day to all and Happy Birthday to Rich!  What a nice gift to hear something that gives you a 'breakthrough' experience.  It's good therapy. ha.

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline richidoo

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Re: McCormack DNA-500 amp listening impressions
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2009, 05:23:56 PM »
I feel your pain, Mike, remember I have to give it up, at least you're getting it back! I'm bringing it to Carl tomorrow morning.

Thanks Tom, I think I'll build up a simple Aikido.