Life at the end of the tunnel

[inguz]

Hi all.  Counting down the hours now to a big system-change, food's cooking, so I thought I'd tell you all about it

My system for the last while has been: Transporter (unbalanced out) -> homebrew LM3886 amp -> Gallo Ref3 speakers.  The gallos are quite tricky beasts to get singing:  they're nearly omnidirectional, and I don't have a whole lot of space to sit them a long way from the walls, so passive room treatment is a definitely worthwhile investment.  But once I got the early reflections tamed (with a couple GIK panels), they're absolutely wonderful.

They measure great too.  The impulse response is just about a perfect single spike, with hardly any hang-over ringing.  Room correction (inguz plugin, with filters generated by DRC and an Acourate filter Uli generously built for me - so a few different flavors to play with) controls the bass quite a bit better, but doesn't really change the tonality much - which I think is a sign of a fairly well-balanced setup.

Precise, pinpoint imaging.  Depth, and a real sense of ambience from the recording.  Crystalline highs, punchy lows, excellent placement of stand-up and electric bass.  (I've been listening to a lot of Pentangle recently.  It sounds quite extraordinarily good on this system).

But there's still something uninvolving and sterile about it, unless the volume's cranked way up, and I can't do that too often.  This isnt the fault of the room correction - it's either the speakers or the amp or the source.

A couplee weeks ago I heard Mike's Zu setup (with RedWine amps, not the 45).  It was completely different.  Ugly -- cranky and colored and rough and in-your-face -- in a beautiful way.  (Don't take this personally, Mike!  I wouldn't live with the Zus myself, but it was one of those great experiences that makes you break out grinning for days).  Some things I'd call imperfections helped make it completely involving and musical.

So, I'm selling the Gallos.  (For a good price, if anyone's interested!).  And tomorrow... getting a delivery...

[WEEZ]

..of ..what? c'mon now...

[inguz]

An old pair of Klipschorns.

Which should be really interesting.  The serious horn folks pooh-pooh the inadequacies of a three-way to cover full range, that the mid horn really isn't big enough to meet the bass at 400Hz, and that the drivers are cheap and cheerful.  It's common knowledge that the time alignment is abysmal.  Yet they have a dedicated following of aficionados, so there must be *some* redeeming qualities, right?

Regardless whether they sound *really* good in my smallish room, I'm certain the sound will be more direct and involving than the Gallos.  They're just about polar opposites in terms of dispersion.  And digital correction will be a whole interesting thing to tinker with here, too (especially since I don't plan to move to a digital crossover).

The amp plan is
- compare single-amped and bi-amped (bass / mid-high).  I have four channels of LM3886, two with voltage-out and two with a 2ohm output impedance.
- Maybe build an elliptical active crossover (if DSP can compensate the bass time delays, an extreme-slope crossover should be the best complement, I think).
- And I have a Quad405 with a 1kVA power supply and LME49710 opamps, gathering dust in the basement.  Probably too noisy & dirty without doing Keith Snook's mods, and way more power than these will need, so I think this stays on the shelf for a while.

And source is still Transporter.  Of course part of the "clinical" sound of my current system is the way the Tp's DAC sounds.  But I'd rather keep this one for now and find synergy.  (In listening tests with a friend, the TP's digital out was noticeably better than a Vinnie-modded SB's).

[Double Ugly]

Of course part of the "clinical" sound of my current system is the way the Tp's DAC sounds.  But I'd rather keep this one for now and find synergy.  (In listening tests with a friend, the TP's digital out was noticeably better than a Vinnie-modded SB's).

Have you considered modding the Transporter?  

I figured a stock version would sound sterile and analytical, so I had mine modified en route.  Even though I haven't heard a bone stock unit, comments from you and others lead me to believe I did the right thing (plus I had a return agreement w/ the modder if I hadn't liked it ).  I owned a highly-modified SB2/Ultimate PS from Bolder Cable and my unit compares very favorably with it, so I'm not without some basis for comparison.  I don't believe anyone who's heard Bolder's best offering would describe it as "clinical".

I've no doubt mine can be taken even further (what can't?), but I'm pretty sure it isn't nearly as analytical-sounding as what you and others are experiencing with your units.

-Jim

[richidoo]

I found the GIK panels to really suck out the life in my large room. I can't find a place anywhere in there to put them, so they are stacked in the guest bedroom. Too much absorption for me, although I'm sure I can use some bass tidying. In a smaller room, I can imagine it would have an even larger deadening effect. I always wonder if that is due to the full spectrum absorption whereas some other brands have a layer that reflects higher freqs. I just don't know why.

Good luck with the horns. I've read great things about them.  New speakers, wow, now that's scary!

[inguz]

Yes, I've thought a bit about modding the Transporter.  Thus far I've not had the nerve to (unless you count adding some damping material inside the box).  Maybe on its first birthday...

Re. GIK panels: they made a significant improvement with the Gallos, and deadened the room a little (but it's fairly live anyway).  And they look good, actually.  I'll try take a photo so you can see the layout.

The scariest thing about going to a horn system is that I might end up frothing at the mouth about vintage field-coil unobtainium drivers, and hankering after impractically large structural changes to the living room.  

[bpape]

Not to hijack the thread...

Putting ANY absorbtion in a room takes some getting used to.  We've lived so long with so much extra decay, overhang, etc. that it's quite a change to our perceptions.  You have to live with it for a few weeks to a month.  Then pull them back out and listen again.

Back to the regular programming.

Bryan

[inguz]

Here's a photo of the left side:
http://inguzaudio.com/Data/20070422_Gallo.JPG

The absorption panel is horizontal, so covers quite a wide arc of the wall.  With the panel vertical, I could see reflections off its edges, and the path was only right for a very narrow listening position.
Most of the rearward reflections also get stuck behind a well-padded chair

And the (stereo) impulse response:
http://inguzaudio.com/Data/20070422_Gallo_IR.wav

Quite clean in the first short while.  But still a lot of life in the room, as you can see from the noisy tail.[/url]

[richidoo]

Thanks Bry. I will have another go with the stuff. Thanks

[miklorsmith]

Why would I be offended?  We certainly don't all like the same things.  Ugly, colored, cranky, sounds like beautiful and live music to me.  Almost everyone that comes over leaves muttering things like "It just sounds so real".

Perceptions are weird, the analytical brain says "measures bad", the musical brain says "yummy".  Go figure.

I owned the Gallos.  After building a pair of Fostex 206E boxes that I'm sure measured like warmed death the Gallos went up for sale within two days.  As it turns out, I don't like "flat".  C'est la vie.

My guess is the Klipshorns will make the Definitions sound like studio monitors but I bet you love 'em!  

[inguz]

Well, the Ks are in.  My goodness they're big.  And loud!  My 25wpc amp can knock holes in the brick walls.  And deep!  Even at very moderate volume you can feel the thump.

Just like being there, for some value of "there" :-0

The top end is not particularly refined.  The Gallos walk over them in terms of purity and accuracy.  Vocals can be slightly edgy (Feist and Imogen Heap, who are both quite wonderful, sound a bit shrill). But, wow, the bass is wonderful.

Compare with the Zus?  I wouldn't dare.  (Open house, my place, just call).

Favourite music with Gallos: guitar (Renbourn, de Lucia...) and small-group jazz.  But right now Hugh Masekela is talking about the coal train, and I need to go listen.  Stimela...  Stimela...

[miklorsmith]

Rock on!

There isn't much out there that will touch the Gallos in the highs - that tweet is supreme.

But, music doesn't live there.  I think you'll be happier now.

Some day I'd love to hear a good pair of those.  I'm sure there are very good reasons they're revered.

[WEEZ]

inguz, can you describe your amplifier for us?

(sorry, if I missed a description previously...)

WEEZ

[inguz]

Sure.  It's a home-built lump, LM3886 with a chunky power supply (although I didn't have room to go choke-input, and I'm hearing a tiny amount of buzz for the first time with the new 104dB// speakers!) and two of the four channels use feedforward to get a 2-ohm output impedance (those are driving the squawker & tweet right now, with voltage drive on the bass).

Lots more detail, and some pix: http://cabezal.com/~inguz/amp/ (the internals shots are fun).

[opnly bafld]

Well, the Ks are in.  My goodness they're big.  And loud!  My 25wpc amp can knock holes in the brick walls.  And deep!  Even at very moderate volume you can feel the thump.

33hz +/-4dBs    sorry I had to check on that because I have heard some of the other older models and they don't go anywhere near that low.
Must have something to do with the corner loading me thinks.

Enjoy

Lin