AudioNervosa
Specialists => Audiologists => Topic started by: dflee on July 19, 2021, 10:59:54 AM
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For a guy going on a blind date those words always put that "what did I get myself into" thoughts.
I'm finding the same when told "the bass is clean, fast and tight". Seems that with those words then
the room pressurizing thump in the chest type LF may be missing. Yes in some cases I found that statement to
be true in the aspect that it is there but just not THERE. Would you not get a drawn out note (not tight) in order
to have that kind of authority in the lower region? It may take mucho dinero to get both (that I will probably
never hear) or is it just not possible to have both?
Don
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All depends on how much you think "mucho dinero" is
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One more time: subwoofer.
You seem to be treading water with a speaker that meets your wants. From everything I have seen you are looking for more bass than is, uhm...real.
You want LF "hit", buy the thing that will do 'it' for you.
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What size subs will fit into your room?
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If your plan is to still "start from scratch" with new speakers as you said in an earlier thread you either have to get extremely lucky on the used market to find a floor stander that will fit your bass wants and not drive you out of the room or find a monitor that delivers for you from the mid 40's and up then fill that it with a pair of subs. I use Rythmik F-12's but there are others that will fit the bill. For a change of pace in my Main system I replaced the full range Verity Otello's with a pair of $2500 Reynaud Bliss Jubillee's. They are a transmission line book shelf speaker that will reach the low 40's on their own. I then dialed up the crossover on the Rythmiks from the 35hz point used with the Verity's to 60hz and I still have great sound with all the LF response I need. The most important thing is to find a speaker whose sound you can live with for long periods and then deal with the low frequencies by other means.
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If your plan is to still "start from scratch" with new speakers as you said in an earlier thread you either have to get extremely lucky on the used market to find a floor stander that will fit your bass wants and not drive you out of the room or find a monitor that delivers for you from the mid 40's and up then fill that it with a pair of subs. I use Rythmik F-12's but there are others that will fit the bill. For a change of pace in my Main system I replaced the full range Verity Otello's with a pair of $2500 Reynaud Bliss Jubillee's. They are a transmission line book shelf speaker that will reach the low 40's on their own. I then dialed up the crossover on the Rythmiks from the 35hz point used with the Verity's to 60hz and I still have great sound with all the LF response I need. The most important thing is to find a speaker whose sound you can live with for long periods and then deal with the low frequencies by other means.
Rythmik subs are amazing for a sealed sub. Brian's sensing coil servo control is orders of magnitude better than accelerometer based subs. The apparent speed and impact is only challenged (@less than $3K) by GR open baffle subs. Those are still my favorite for tuneful, easily integrated LF. -3dB in-room in the 'teens. :thumb: Yowza! There is a reason GR rooms were chosen every year at RMAF when we (GR, P.I., TWL, Dodd Audio, dB Audio Lans) were exhibiting back a few years ago for "Best bass." Steven Stone's Best Sound of Show a couple of times was pretty cool :thumb:
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Nothing beats a good pair of speakers with a well integrated sub-woofer...
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I guess I misspoke somehow.
The question was is can you have both, clean tight fast LF and still have
the authoritative bass. Wouldn't it have to linger in the room and thus be slow(er)
and not as clean?
Thanks
Don
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Nothing beats a good pair of speakers with a well integrated sub-woofer...
.... except perhaps a pair of good speakers that doesn't need a sub? (https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/1733/1540835837.0802-smilie.gif)
Of course then you are probably talking $$$$. (https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/1733/1534579954.2933-smiley.gif)
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I guess I misspoke somehow.
The question was is can you have both, clean tight fast LF and still have
the authoritative bass. Wouldn't it have to linger in the room and thus be slow(er)
and not as clean?
Thanks
Don
To get what you are calling authoritative bass you need to move a lot of air. The most common way to do this is to use a big driver with a long throw. But this comes with its own set of problems. A big driver adds comes with a lot of moving mass. When you apply a + signal to that drive it will move forward gaining inertia as it travel. When the signal switches polarity to _ the driver should immediately reverse direction and start traveling backwards. But because of the inertia gained by the cone the first few milliseconds of negative signal ends up acting as a brake and slowing the driver to a stop before it can begin traveling in the opposite directions. What you are sensing as the bass lingering in the room is actually the sound of the cones inertia. causing it to overshoot the point where it is supposed to change direction. This can be address in several ways, unfortunately all of which involve added costs.
You can make the cones out of some exotic (i.ie. expensive) lightweight material to lower the moving mass. This will help, but only get you so far.
You can employ some kind of feedback system that measures the speed and direction of the cone, compares it to the signal driving it and modifies that signal to add some extra "braking voltage" to counteract the inertia. This is commonly referred to as a servo system and while it can be effective it also adds extra circuitry to the system hat increases the cost.
And you can also lower the inertia by employing multiple driver. With multiple drivers the cones do not need to travel as far because each driver needs to move less air. The shorter throw means the cone builds up less speed and is easier to "turn around". The easier turnaround leads to less overshoot and therefore a tighter sounding bass. Taking this one step further, using multiple driver also gives you the opportunity to use smaller driver which have less mass and therefore less inertia and less overshoot. But more driver means not only more parts, but bigger cabinets and once again more cost. The best subs I ever heard were a pair of towers that each had if I remember correctly 6 five in drivers. Bass that kicked you right in the chest and as tight as I have ever heard. The dealer told me that the six drivers working together has the same air moving capacity as a 15 inch woofer but they only moved back and forth about 1/2 inch in either direction. But of course the price tag on then was $4500 in 1988.
So Don you were correct in that good bass is not cheap, but at least I hope you have a little better understanding of the hows and whys.
And I know there are others in our little circle that have more speaker design experience that me, so if anyone wants to jump in and add more detail or even correct something that I may have misspoken about, feel free, no offense take, I'm here to learn too.
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When I got my Boxers I asked Carl at Nola what he recommended in the way of a sub since at the time Nola had stopped making them. His only advice was to get one with the smallest driver I could find because with the 6.5 inch woofer in the Boxer a 12 sub driver would never blend right and I would always end up hearing the speed difference between the bass from the speakers and the subs. In his mind a small quantity of good tight bass was better than a larger amount of loose sloppy bass.
I got a pair of Sunfire True Subwoofer Super Jrs. with 8 inch drivers and have been very happy with them. Of course that is because the blend very nicely with my speakers. As usual YMMV.
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The concept of using multiple, smaller drivers is interesting, but I’ve not understood at what point that concept would no longer hold up. If you can move a lot of air and get great bass with a few 6.5”s, then can you get tight bass by using even more 5”s or 3.5s? Is there not a point where the driver, not matter how many you use, can simply not move enough air?
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The concept of using multiple, smaller drivers is interesting, but I’ve not understood at what point that concept would no longer hold up. If you can move a lot of air and get great bass with a few 6.5”s, then can you get tight bass by using even more 5”s or 3.5s? Is there not a point where the driver, not matter how many you use, can simply not move enough air?
I guess theoretically no, but I would think that at some point you would hit a point of diminishing returns, or when is tight tight enough? and b) you would probably hit a point where it was just not practical anymore. I would think as the drivers got smaller you would run into a situation there stepping down to the next smallest size would require A LOT more drivers and it would become not only cost prohibitive but just kind of silly. As you get into smaller and smaller drivers not only does the area decrease, but also the length of the throw and therefore the amount air air they can move. As you can imagine a 1 inch silk dome tweeter cannot move a very large amount of air, so while you could put enough of them together to reproduce bass with them would anyone really want to build a sub with say 100 tweeters ( I don't know that 100 is real number required, but you get the idea.)
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The concept of using multiple, smaller drivers is interesting, but I’ve not understood at what point that concept would no longer hold up. If you can move a lot of air and get great bass with a few 6.5”s, then can you get tight bass by using even more 5”s or 3.5s? Is there not a point where the driver, not matter how many you use, can simply not move enough air?
The problem you run into with small drivers is that they do not have low enough resonant frequencies necessary to produce low bass, unless they are used in what is called and ELF alignment. ELF subwoofers can produce great lows but require prodigious amounts of power to counteract the low frequency roll offs that occur below resonance.
It is physics raising its ugly head. Like Tom said to produce lows with authority requires a lot air must be moved. This requires high stroke volume. Either a large diaphragm must move a little or multiple small drivers with low resonant frequencies must move a lot farther to move the air. Peter Noerbaek regularly uses dual 18" woofers in his large speakers. They have an effective cone area of ~188 sq in each with an Xmax of 1". This means that the maximum linear excursion of each speaker is 2". Doing the math for low frequencies (usually mixed in the middle in recordings) is: 188 x 2 x 4 = 1504 cu in per excursion at Xmax. Find a 6.5" driver with a very low resonant frequency to produce the same LF response. They exist. Let's do some math again. Most 6.5" subwoofers have an effective cone area of ~ 19 sq in and an Xmax of ~1/4". They would move about 9.5 cu in of air at Xmax. This means it would take 167 of those woofers to move the same amount of air as those 4 - 18" drivers.
In cars and low frequencies there ain't no substitute for cubic inches.
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The concept of using multiple, smaller drivers is interesting, but I’ve not understood at what point that concept would no longer hold up. If you can move a lot of air and get great bass with a few 6.5”s, then can you get tight bass by using even more 5”s or 3.5s? Is there not a point where the driver, not matter how many you use, can simply not move enough air?
The problem you run into with small drivers is that they do not have low enough resonant frequencies necessary to produce low bass, unless they are used in what is called and ELF alignment. ELF subwoofers can produce great lows but require prodigious amounts of power to counteract the low frequency roll offs that occur below resonance.
It is physics raising its ugly head. Like Tom said to produce lows with authority requires a lot air must be moved. This requires high stroke volume. Either a large diaphragm must move a little or multiple small drivers with low resonant frequencies must move a lot farther to move the air. Peter Noerbaek regularly uses dual 18" woofers in his large speakers. They have an effective cone area of ~188 sq in each with an Xmax of 1". This means that the maximum linear excursion of each speaker is 2". Doing the math for low frequencies (usually mixed in the middle in recordings) is: 188 x 2 x 4 = 1504 cu in per excursion at Xmax. Find a 6.5" driver with a very low resonant frequency to produce the same LF response. They exist. Let's do some math again. Most 6.5" subwoofers have an effective cone area of ~ 19 sq in and an Xmax of ~1/4". They would move about 9.5 cu in of air at Xmax. This means it would take 167 of those woofers to move the same amount of air as those 4 - 18" drivers.
In cars and low frequencies there ain't no substitute for cubic inches.
Thanks for the math lesson, Dave. I like it when you crunch the numbers like that. Bass has never been all that important to me because of the type of music that I normally listen to and what I think are significant room limitations in my open plan living room.
Twenty years ago I owned the Shahinian Diapasons which I believe have two 8” drivers on the sides of the bottom module and a passive 12” on the rear. It sure would be nice to experience what a 12” or 15” sounds (feels) like 💥
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I have found a 12" woofer can sound both tight/accurate, and the bottom and with chest dynamic punch with FR spec of -3db at 28-29 hz and down 13db at ~19 hz. However, I use the large box approach.
cheers
steve
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I guess I misspoke somehow.
The question was is can you have both, clean tight fast LF and still have
the authoritative bass. Wouldn't it have to linger in the room and thus be slow(er)
and not as clean?
Thanks
Don
You kind of have a point. Thump your chest bass is higher up- 40-70 Hz? Or so… I have had many subs, and my favorite until now was an Hsu ported sub with a 10” woofer- it didn’t do much 20 Hz bass, but it was punchy as hell.
We all, me included, want 20 Hz, but in reality, I think we crave something a little higher- that’s where the ‘meat’ is… Really low bass is ‘wooly’ for lack of a better term unless it’s in a very large room or venue.
I currently use a sealed Hsu sub in my music only system, and have the ‘Q’ dialed down all the way- it’s a way to tighten things up considerably. Look up speaker ‘Q’ and you’ll read what I mean.
Since I hate when people tout what they have is best, I will say that Rhytmik’s way of doing things also keeps it tight, and I’ve heard some open baffle subs at a club member’s home that also kicked ass. Again I’ll mention SVS for their truly pain and dollar free trial.
Ultimately, if you tried a sub 10-15 years ago and didn’t like the resulting sound, try one again. They’ve only gotten better- my current Hsu bests the REL I had 10 years at less than half the cost.
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I guess I misspoke somehow.
The question was is can you have both, clean tight fast LF and still have
the authoritative bass. Wouldn't it have to linger in the room and thus be slow(er)
and not as clean?
Thanks
Don
:thumb:
You kind of have a point. Thump your chest bass is higher up- 40-70 Hz? Or so… I have had many subs, and my favorite until now was an Hsu ported sub with a 10” woofer- it didn’t do much 20 Hz bass, but it was punchy as hell.
We all, me included, want 20 Hz, but in reality, I think we crave something a little higher- that’s where the ‘meat’ is… Really low bass is ‘wooly’ for lack of a better term unless it’s in a very large room or venue.
I currently use a sealed Hsu sub in my music only system, and have the ‘Q’ dialed down all the way- it’s a way to tighten things up considerably. Look up speaker ‘Q’ and you’ll read what I mean.
Since I hate when people tout what they have is best, I will say that Rhytmik’s way of doing things also keeps it tight, and I’ve heard some open baffle subs at a club member’s home that also kicked ass. Again I’ll mention SVS for their truly pain and dollar free trial.
Ultimately, if you tried a sub 10-15 years ago and didn’t like the resulting sound, try one again. They’ve only gotten better- my current Hsu bests the REL I had 10 years at less than half the cost.
Bass is difficult. So many systems are too full at ~ 80Hz which is the 'mud zone'. Punchy bass is the 40Hz - 60Hz realm and definition is in the 100Hz to 200Hz area. Kick drums that have a definite 'click' on the attack have a boost around 2KHz. The 10Hz to 40Hz response area is where concert drum and lots of synths generate a bunch of energy. As a recording engineer I can tell you that we regard that as the "foundation" for higher frequencies. Without that frequency realm, C0 and C1 on pipe organs and orchestral music just lack oomph.
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I had a pair of Thiel 3.5s as well. Remember they went down to 20hz only with the use of a line level equalizer device. While it boosted the bass it was not kind to the rest of the frequencies. JSP Labs, before they were making those purple cables, mad a device for the 3.5s called the Magic Flutes. The were a higher quality equalizer with a gentler slope that retained most of the bass boost while doing less harm to everything else. (My dealer told me that Jim Thiel actually preferred the speakers without the EQ box, but he felt that from a marketing perspective he would have a very hard time selling a speaker at that price point that at least on paper did not go down to 20Hz.)
Of course the best way to handle the problem was to boost the bass with a sub (or 2) and get rid of the EQ box completely. I remember them sounding really nice with a pair of Vandersteen subs. :D