DSD and DAC upgrades

[jsaliga]

And I would be willing to bet that you would think the $1,500 DAC was better because it cost $1,500.

I would find your statement more credible if you could identify the more expensive DAC as having superior sound repeatedly in a blind listening test.

This is why I don't much like talking about gear on forums.  It has been completely overrun with audiophile nonsensical bullshit.  I never said the Teac was the last word on DACS.  You put those words in my mouth.  I did say that I have no complaints about its performance.  I said the same thing about the Eastern Electric DAC, and also said the same thing about a few other DACs that I have owned that were considerably more expensive.

I don't care if you disagree with me, but be intellectually honest about it and don't try to discredit me as though I have no experience in audio.  I have been around audio since 1975 and I know what good sound is.

--Jerome

[StereoNut]

I'll make one more comment and then leave it be.

I happen to think $1,500 is a lot of money for a DAC, and I could afford to spend more than that if I thought it was worth it.  Others might see $1,500 as quite reasonable.  Part of it is conditioning and expectations, value judgments, and the size of your wallet.

Numerous factors affect the price of a audio components.  Performance is one of them, as are aesthetics, features, design, complexity, etc.  But I also believe that as the price goes up performance becomes less and less a factor in the cost.  At least that has been my experience.

Sometimes we spend more because it increases our confidence that we are buying a component that will deliver the goods.  I've done it myself.  Visually attractive aesthetics, robust and overbuilt designs, and extended feature sets can help to build confidence in the product.  But that said, those things may not sound any better than a lower priced component.

I personally believe that in the absence of an in-home audition, you are pretty much rolling the dice on any audio purchase.

--Jerome

I agree with you 110% Jerome!

I (and many others) have said this before, but I'll repeat the obvious here.  It all comes down to SYNERGY!!!

All of us at one time or another have been to an audio buddy's house to "lend an extra set of ears" and check out whatever component, accessory, tweak, whatever... that they are trying in their system.  You listen to their current system as a base-line, then the A > B > C comparisons start.  Lets say it's DACs.  After all is said and done, you happen to agree (which of course doesn't always happen) that DAC "B" is the "greatest thing since sliced bread" in your friend's system.  Matter of fact, you are so excited about how much improvement DAC "B" made in his system, that you plead with them to borrow it and try it out in your own system.  You get it home, hook it up and it is absolutely horrific sounding in your system.  Does that make DAC "B"  bad component...???  Absolutely NOT!  But, it doesn't "play nice" with the rest of your system.

It's SYNERGY baby!

My 2¢

SN

[Face]

I'd avoid the Burson if you plan on designing speakers or taking measurements through it.  

It's a little above your budget, you can pick up a used Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 and eventually upgrade it to 32/384 and DSD capable: http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/905537  

Interesting. is a rather "polite" sounding DAC, but not very speedy and bass is a bit laid back. Why do you say not to use it when designing speakers? tonal imbalance? I am not emotionally attached to it so you can feel free to let it fly, ha ha 

It does sound very nice, but it's partly due to the fact it doesn't measure flat.    

[Face]

And I would be willing to bet that you would think the $1,500 DAC was better because it cost $1,500.

--Jerome

Not everyone falls for this. 
So what other DACs have you compared the Teac to?

[DaveC]

And I would be willing to bet that you would think the $1,500 DAC was better because it cost $1,500.

--Jerome

That's a nice insult, thanks... 

[DaveC]

I'd avoid the Burson if you plan on designing speakers or taking measurements through it.  

It's a little above your budget, you can pick up a used Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 and eventually upgrade it to 32/384 and DSD capable: http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/905537  

Interesting. is a rather "polite" sounding DAC, but not very speedy and bass is a bit laid back. Why do you say not to use it when designing speakers? tonal imbalance? I am not emotionally attached to it so you can feel free to let it fly, ha ha 

It does sound very nice, but it's partly due to the fact it doesn't measure flat.    

Yup, it rolls off the highs, I have seen the measurements and it's obviously done on purpose. 

[jsaliga]

And I would be willing to bet that you would think the $1,500 DAC was better because it cost $1,500.

--Jerome

Not everyone falls for this.  
So what other DACs have you compared the Teac to?

Not taking the bait.  

All I wanted to do is suggest to the OP that he look into the TEAC UD-501 and I have done that.  It wasn't my intention to start a flame war over DACs or to invite the unqualified opinions of people who HAVE NOT HEARD THE TEAC.

I'm done.

--Jerome

[DaveC]

Jerome, the rec to check out the Teac is a good one, it is brand new and has a lot going for it, including a reasonable price. If I were going to buy a new DAC, I'd check it out for sure.

The issue is when you say that all it's missing is a high pricetag, which is putting down everything that's more expensive, as if it's a waste of money.

I actually HAVE heard many DACs, some of which are very expensive. And while it's not always the case, sometimes you DO get what you pay for.

Schiit, I have a Bifrost, which is a great DAC for the money, but I'm under no illusion that there aren't significantly better DACs that cost A LOT more money.

Trying them out is the only way to know for sure, and it is true cheaper DACs are getting better and better... the new uber Bifrost with the v2 USB is way better than the original and may be good enough for some folks, but some may find value in spending a lot more money on a DAC... and it's not just because they feel good about spending more money, it's because high end equipment is designed without as much limitation on the quality/price of the parts used to build it, which sometimes can lead to better sound quality.

The OP has $1500 to spend, and I do feel like this price range opens up more options, some of which may sound better than anything under $1k.

[jimbones]

I'll make one more comment and then leave it be.

I happen to think $1,500 is a lot of money for a DAC, and I could afford to spend more than that if I thought it was worth it.  Others might see $1,500 as quite reasonable.  Part of it is conditioning and expectations, value judgments, and the size of your wallet.

Numerous factors affect the price of a audio components.  Performance is one of them, as are aesthetics, features, design, complexity, etc.  But I also believe that as the price goes up performance becomes less and less a factor in the cost.  At least that has been my experience.

Sometimes we spend more because it increases our confidence that we are buying a component that will deliver the goods.  I've done it myself.  Visually attractive aesthetics, robust and overbuilt designs, and extended feature sets can help to build confidence in the product.  But that said, those things may not sound any better than a lower priced component.

I personally believe that in the absence of an in-home audition, you are pretty much rolling the dice on any audio purchase.

--Jerome

Jerome. I didn't mean to sound condescending. I agree that i sometimes feel I have to spend a bit more than I want just to get to that level. I have heard good things about the Teac, but the reviewers always leave room (like you mentioned) for the Uber expensive stuff. I have to audition. I did hear a quick demo of a EE mini max in my system and it sounded promising. Thank you for your suggestions.

[jimbones]

I'd avoid the Burson if you plan on designing speakers or taking measurements through it.  

It's a little above your budget, you can pick up a used Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 and eventually upgrade it to 32/384 and DSD capable: http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/905537  

Interesting. is a rather "polite" sounding DAC, but not very speedy and bass is a bit laid back. Why do you say not to use it when designing speakers? tonal imbalance? I am not emotionally attached to it so you can feel free to let it fly, ha ha 

It does sound very nice, but it's partly due to the fact it doesn't measure flat.    

Yup, it rolls off the highs, I have seen the measurements and it's obviously done on purpose. 

Holy S!!! I can confirm this because I put a scope before the speaker and it started a slow rolloff at 12k!!!! I just chaulked this up to "I must be doing something wrong, it must be me" 

[machinehead]

Yes you all rock! Its all about Synergy and good looks... and sometimes a little Rohypnol... erm wait I mean.. hmm

[jimbones]

Yes you all rock! Its all about Synergy and good looks... and sometimes a little Rohypnol... erm wait I mean.. hmm

I actually had to look up Rohypnol  Vallium hmmmmm

[machinehead]

Its the date rape drug... sick i know.
Anyways. there are so many choices in Dacs out there consider yourself lucky or I guess it could be really overwhelming too.

Ive read all the DSD is better propaganda... but I dont have any. Though it would be good to have just in case, we all have to see if it dies on the vine.. Its another thing to cough up your hard earned money for.

GL!!

[Face]

And I would be willing to bet that you would think the $1,500 DAC was better because it cost $1,500.

--Jerome

Not everyone falls for this.  
So what other DACs have you compared the Teac to?

Not taking the bait.  

All I wanted to do is suggest to the OP that he look into the TEAC UD-501 and I have done that.  It wasn't my intention to start a flame war over DACs or to invite the unqualified opinions of people who HAVE NOT HEARD THE TEAC.

I'm done.

--Jerome

Bait?  I'm just curious if you've compared it to anything else.  If it sounded better or the same as others in it's price range or higher?   

[jsaliga]

Sorry if I misunderstood.

I'll try to make this as clear as I can on where I come down on gear.

• Price is not a predictor of performance.
• Measurements are more important than the listening impressions of audiophiles.

Sadly, almost no one publishes measurements along with their reviews.  Secrets of Home Theater and Hi-Fi does it, and a so do a few others.  The major Audio rags do not.

I bought the Teac for its feature set, its measured performance, and reasonable price.  I have heard and owned much more expensive DACs, but since I no longer own any of them (the last DAC I owned was the Eastern Electric DAC about a year ago) any comparison I would try to make would be meaningless.  I will say that I don't recall any of the DACs I have owned to be vastly different from one another, and they all more or less sounded the same.

I am pretty much done with throwing a lot of money at equipment.  My last experience with an expensive piece was the Aesthetix Rhea Phono Preamp.  At a cost of almost $5,000 new I was stunned at how noisy it was, and it wasn't because of the tubes I was using.  The noise was below the noise floor of most music but every time I lifted the tonearm queuing lever there it was, smacking me right in the face...and it actually discouraged me from listening to music.  I figured if I told myself over and over again how great it was then I might actually believe it.  I even made positive comments about it here, much to my regret.  

I concluded that the issue with the Rhea was the design itself, and using tubes to drive all three of the Rhea's gain stages was a bad design choice.  My Cinemag Blue SUT and Soundsmith phono stage is much better, and costs far less than half the price of the Rhea.  If reviews included actual measurements the noise issue with the Rhea would have been glaring and I would not have gone forward with a purchase.

Finally, I do not believe that folks (golden-eared audiophiles or anyone else) are able to pick out the subtle sonic differences they claim separate the affordable gear from the expensive stuff.  Human hearing and perception do not paint the infallible, razor sharp picture of reality that many audiophiles seem to think.  However, we have been conditioned to believe otherwise, and I occasionally find myself falling back into old patterns of thinking.  High end audio, IMO, offers the lowest value per dollar of any class of product made.  I'm sure there will be a lot of people who disagree with me, and I can live with that.

Out.

--Jerome