my search for a new dac

[richidoo]

That's interesting Dave. Thanks for the advice on the circuit above. I don't want slow tubeyness.

Yes, the 6N6p is supposed to be very similar to 6SN7. I think lampizatorman says it is "The Russian 6SN7." I love 6SN7, who doesn't I guess, right? I do have 2 old Aikido boards, for 9 pin and for octal. Never built them... duh.

DAC output voltage vary, and current too. Check the specsheet for yours. The Sabre makes 3Vpp, or 1Vrms. It could use +6dB of gain to better fit in with all the other kids in the system.

Do you mean put an Aikido stage after your BiFrost?  I just read up on that Bifrost. Schiit, that looks very cool! Nick, you should check that out.

[DaveC]

I was thinking of using an Aikido as an output stage for a custom DIY DAC like the Buffalo. I'm not familiar enough with DACs to modify my Bifrost.

If the Sabre is making that much voltage right off the chip then lower gain would be better unless you want a DAC that outputs 10V rms. In my system 4V would be perfect so 10 would be tolerable. I forget exactly what the output impedance of a 6SN7 Aikido is, but it's pretty low, maybe a couple hundred ohms so it should drive anything after it pretty easily.

[bhobba]

It aren't true that Sabre provides jitter protection?

Hard to tell.  Its improved with a lower jitter source but would it sound worse without the measures Saber claim to have built into their DAC?  Until you can do a direct comparison of a Saber chip with and without those measures you will never know.

What I can say 100% for sure is the async USB input of the WFS is way below the SPDIF input using the Off-Ramp so if you are expecting the Saber chip to make external converters redundant then that is not the case.

Thanks
Bill

[Nick B]

Hi Dave,

You mentioned the Bifrost and Jeff over at Sonic Craft mods them. I just sent him an email about that. His comment to me ... "I have found the Bifrost to perform very well.  It is conceivable that some applications may not fair as well....YMMV.  The Uber analog card basically ditches the output coupling for a DC servo.  While I have not had a lot of time with the Uber, I have compared it to our modified unit.  Our modded unit sounds better.  Close to half the parts in our unit are not necessary in the Uber.  And the Uber is cheaper than our $515 mod package.  Our mod contains purely filtering improvement.  The parts are all capacitors (Teflons, Blackgate NX, and Dynamicaps).  If you had us mod your unit, you would not use the Uber board."

I had asked him about jitter rejection and my not wanting to buy an Empirical Audio SM unit, but he didn't address it. I found out about Jeff when I was thinking of going the tube amp route...a modded Golden Tube Audio SE 40

I am probably not going to go that direction as I'm not technically saavy as to what chip and op amps are in the Bifrost. Jeff appears to have a good reputation as to mods.
Nick
PS  looking forward to your cables

I was thinking of using an Aikido as an output stage for a custom DIY DAC like the Buffalo. I'm not familiar enough with DACs to modify my Bifrost.

If the Sabre is making that much voltage right off the chip then lower gain would be better unless you want a DAC that outputs 10V rms. In my system 4V would be perfect so 10 would be tolerable. I forget exactly what the output impedance of a 6SN7 Aikido is, but it's pretty low, maybe a couple hundred ohms so it should drive anything after it pretty easily.

[DaveC]

Hi Nick, Jeff is good guy, I have talked to him a few times and I buy items from Sonicraft on a frequent basis. A $515 mod to a <$500 DAC seems a little much, but I'd guess the results are worthwhile. At that price you'd need to compare it to DACs in the $1k range... it would have to beat Schiit's Gungnir DAC as well, not just the Bifrost Uber. I am also wondering when Schiit will finally release their "statement" DAC, which is supposed to still be priced reasonably, I think in the $1500 range. Jason (one of Schiit's owners) said it is on the way but the development cycle is taking much longer than expected.

It's my guess that with $1500 you can find a DAC that is significantly better then the Bifrost though, whether uber or modded... I will be interested to hear Mike's thoughts and also hear what he's using these days vs the Bifrost.

[mgalusha]

I will be interested to hear Mike's thoughts and also hear what he's using these days vs the Bifrost.

I should have a few on hand Monday for your thoughts. I own an Auralic Vega, a Teac UD-501 and have an M2 hiFace DAC on loan. I modded a Teac for a friend, better regulators and different output opamps, it was worth the cost and trouble in his and another fellow who heard it. I may do mine as well, it's currently in service for my desktop system at work, much nicer than the Juli@ that I was using and of course it does DSD.

[richidoo]

Review of Bifrost in Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/content/schiit-audio-bifrost-da-processor

[DaveC]

mgalusha, thanks for the hospitality! 

We listened to a few DACs... The Bifrost, Teac and HiFace were all ok but not even close to the Auralic. Actually, after hearing the Auralic you may not think the other DACs are ok anymore. They all sounded closed in, lacking in dynamics and tonally incorrect in direct comparison.

Taking the Auralic out of the game, the others were all much closer to one another. The Teac was not very good imo... warm, slow and lacking in detail. It sounds polite and non-offensive. The HiFace was better and more toward the neutral side vs the Teac, it was faster and offered more detail... for $300 this is a very good DAC. The Bifrost was better than both, it would be hard to fault by itsself but easy to dismiss when compared directly to the Auralic. So, the Bifrost's shortcomings were more an issue of what it didn't do vs. picking out problems with it's presentation.

With the Auralic, the sound just opens up... like watching a 32" TV vs a big 60" plasma. There is more detail and dynamics, but the presentation is relaxed and effortless, especially with high resolution material.

Mike did mention the Yulong DAC is closer to the Auralic than the Teac, so for the money it may be worth looking into. I think the Yulong DAC is the DA8, link below.. correct me if I'm wrong.

http://yulongaudio.com/en/product_detail.asp?pid=30

[mgalusha]

mgalusha, thanks for the hospitality! 

We listened to a few DACs... The Bifrost, Teac and HiFace were all ok but not even close to the Auralic. Actually, after hearing the Auralic you may not think the other DACs are ok anymore. They all sounded closed in, lacking in dynamics and tonally incorrect in direct comparison.

Taking the Auralic out of the game, the others were all much closer to one another. The Teac was not very good imo... warm, slow and lacking in detail. It sounds polite and non-offensive. The HiFace was better and more toward the neutral side vs the Teac, it was faster and offered more detail... for $300 this is a very good DAC. The Bifrost was better than both, it would be hard to fault by itsself but easy to dismiss when compared directly to the Auralic. So, the Bifrost's shortcomings were more an issue of what it didn't do vs. picking out problems with it's presentation.

With the Auralic, the sound just opens up... like watching a 32" TV vs a big 60" plasma. There is more detail and dynamics, but the presentation is relaxed and effortless, especially with high resolution material.

Mike did mention the Yulong DAC is closer to the Auralic than the Teac, so for the money it may be worth looking into. I think the Yulong DAC is the DA8, link below.. correct me if I'm wrong.

http://yulongaudio.com/en/product_detail.asp?pid=30

You've welcome Dave, it was good to have you over. Yes, the Yulong that my friend has is the DA8, pretty nice little box. The Teac comes alive with a few tweaks but at that point you can get something like the Yulong. I agree, the Bifrost is quite amazing for very little cost. And yes, I'm very fond of the Vega.