Author Topic: my search for a new dac  (Read 13325 times)

Offline Nick B

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my search for a new dac
« on: August 03, 2013, 01:25:40 PM »
I am having Steve McCormack upgrade my DNA 1.0 Deluxe to gold level. I am also selling my preamp, so the next step is to upgrade from my current modded SB 2 and modded power supply.

I have read a number of threads and am interested in the EE Dac Plus (https://app.audiogon.com/listings/da-converters-eastern-minimax-dac-plus-with-upgrades-mint-2013-07-30-digital-52803-davenport-ia )  so I can do some op amp rolling. Also interested in the Buffalo, but my DIY skills may not be up to snuff. Haven't soldered in years and can kinda read a schematic, but have a cheapie ohm meter? so am hesitant about the whole process.

Other appealing dacs are the Antelope Zodiac   https://app.audiogon.com/listings/da-converters-antelope-zodiac-new-open-box-item-2013-07-28-digital-80919-colorado-springs-co and the Matrix X Sabre. I like the idea of the upgradeability of the Schiit Bifrost, but the sonics likely don't compare to what I've just listed.

 It would be great to get a really good used dac for about $800, but I'm probably dreaming. One last note, I assume anything with the ESS chip will provide jitter protection as I don't want to get a unit like the SM Reclocker. I don't want another box and more cables unless I have to.....
 opinions welcome!
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JMR Voce Grande speakers
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Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
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Offline rollo

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Re: my search for a new dac
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2013, 06:34:04 AM »
   Check out the new TEAC a UD501 and Musical Fidelity M-1.  Mytek as well.
   If ya feel like soldering Audio note kit DAC. have fun.


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Offline topround

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Re: my search for a new dac
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2013, 06:43:22 AM »
How about a Lampizator?

Lukas is supposed to have a lot of new stuff
System consists of an amp a preamp, 2 speakers a turntable and a phono preamp, Also some cables and power cords and a really cheap cd player.

Offline StereoNut

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Offline Nick B

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Re: my search for a new dac
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2013, 10:48:24 AM »
Thanks for the comments. I've heard about all these dacs. Anyone able to compare an EE dac + dexa to a Buffalo? .. a Zodiac to a Buffalo or EE etc? I was looking for tthe dac shootout thread from maybe a year or so ago, but can't find it   Your personal experiences are quite helpful  Only looking to audition a couple of dacs at most
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
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Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline richidoo

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Re: my search for a new dac
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2013, 03:53:00 PM »
Hi Nick!   Buffalo DAC is very simple at it's core. Basically just the ESS chip, a good clock, power supplies, and very flexible PCB that allows all kinds of modding and connections. The Buff3 exposes even more of the features of the ESS chip, but is essentially the same as Buff2 when run in stereo, with same sound quality. Many people modding the Buffs will defeat the onboard switching power supplies in favor of high performance linear regulators like Belleson, Hynes or Twisted Pear's own Placid regulators. Solder holes are provided on Buffalo 2/3 board for external 78xx-style regulars. I don't know what clock and PS are used on EE, but they are more than adequate.

The big difference among all ESS based DACs, from Dragonfly to SimAudio Moon 750, is what happens to the analog signal after it comes out of the DAC.  

The Sabre has relatively high current sourcing ability. iirc, It can make 1mA per leg, that's 4mA per channel when ganged into a stereo DAC. That allows the DAC to be run in current mode, which means playing into a very low resistance that would challenge most other DA chips. In this mode, the S/N is optimized. This is the method Twisted Pear uses in their own output stages like IVY and Legato. The drawback to these output stages like Ivy is that the designer judges opamps by the specs they keep, not the sound they make. Russ loves LM4562, the ultimate opamp, say John Atkinson another spec lover. It is the Bryston sound of suffocating feedback on a chip. I think the first version of EE came with these opamps, which is why rolling them became so popular.

The ESS chip makes something like 130dB+ s/n in current mode. But in voltage mode, it is still nothing to sneeze at, still much quieter than CD format which is 'only' 96dB s/n. So obsessing over current mode is not worth the effort imo, especially since it requires a current to voltage opamp stage, then a current buffer opamp stage.  Going with voltage output opens up vistas for good sound that are not considered by Twisted Pear because they want that last -6dB of noise.

So to avoid the surface mount 4562s in the Twisted Pear buffers and take advantage of the decent current sourcing of the chip, I chose to let the chip itself drive the output through yummy Jensen 80% nickel core line output transformers. It sounds very good, but after a year it sounds too thin to me. So I am exploring active output stages for it now.

When I bought the Buffalo2 I also bought their Legato discreet output stage for Buffalo2, but never built it. So I will build that and see how it sounds. It has a true balanced output with discreet bipolar transistors. It uses the lovely LM4562 for balanced to single ended conversion to make an RCA output, but the BAL>SE feature can be omitted when you build the Legato. I could change the surface mount 4562 opamp to another for the SE outputs, or use my transformers to do the BAL>SE conversion. The nice thing about Legato is that it can source 150mA (!!!) so it can drive my 30 Ohm headphones too. I don't know if it sounds good, but we'll find out here shortly.

My buddy Carlman also uses this same DAC arrangement, Buffalo2 direct to Jensen line output trannies. But he runs his DAC into a tube preamp which buffers the current and sexies it up a little before heading off to his amp, and his amp is a tad warm and big bottomed anyway, so his does not sound thin at all. My amp is very flat and clean, so the source needs to carry its own water. My tuna and phono sound great.

Another option I can use is a simple opamp current buffer, either single ended direct outputs, or driving my the Jensen  transformers. My friend Sol recommended ST Micro MC33078 opamp. He is designing a simple output stage circuit with 6dB gain to get the ESS chip's voltage output up to the standard 2Vrms. I have never run out of voltage with the chip alone, but I have come close when playing symphonies with very quiet passages. I'll need to make a +/-15V power supply for the opamp, but it's otherwise very simple and should sound good, maybe better than the 4562 on the Legato.

Third option is one that I have been thinking about for a long time, waiting for about 50,000 pennies to overflow out of my piggy bank.  It is a tube output stage that I found on a forum a few years ago. 6N6P tube into Sowter output transformer. It is ultra simple, and should sound very good. I think Lampizator uses ESS DAc with 6N6P output, and significant tweaks everywhere.

I haven't heard any complaints of thinness from EE DACs, and it is not surprising mine sounds a bit thin with trannies only, especially super low distortion trannies with minimal glow.

I have an old Buffalo32 that I haven't used in a long long time. It needs a new home. It has Volumite, and the standard Twisted pear series regulators at that time, not shunts, not Placid. With the Buffalo32, no mods to the output stage or the on board regulators can be made unless you can do tiny surface mount work. But the main regulators could be upgraded to Belleson 2A reg which would probably improve the old style Twisted Pear regs. Buff32 has the current mode output stage with current to voltage converter and current buffer opamps (LM4562.) It is not the ultimate Buffalo build, but it was head and heels better than my previous Altmann battery powered DAC which I dumped immediately after I fired up the Buff32. It is on my long list of audio things to sell. PM if you are interested.

Sorry for the rant about *my* stuff, but you are interested in Buffalo so now you have the benefit of my Buffalo experience and ongoing exploration. I love the chip for the naturalness of non-oversampling DACs like my previous Altmann, but also the tonal balance and wide, clean FR and excellent jitter reduction. I am still committed to getting the best out of it. I am also considering going to Buff3 so I can get 8 channel output, and feed it with Exadevices USB board, or just buy the ExaSound 8 channel complete DAC. They also make a stereo DAC worth checking out. http://www.exasound.com/

If I got tired of it, I would try the Ayre USB DAC, but it has no digital audio input, only USB, so you need a computer. It has a unique output filter which eliminates the pre-ringing to make a very natural, analogish sound. People whose opinion I trust love this DAC and it's sister CDP. I myself, have not heard it yet, so take my enthusiasm for it with a grain of salt. I have heard the top Antelope Gold and the bottom Black, both with and without the Voldemort power supply. It is the most awesome DAC I have ever heard, but it is very stimulating. It is not a kick back and enjoy, natural sounding DAC. It is a grab you by the throat and go on an adventure of a lifetime DAC. Very powerful transients, very pure detailed tone, great bass, etc. Antelope probably has the best digital stream reclocking on the market, I think that's a big part of the goodness. But you gotta be a real hard core audiophile to like it. I prefer more laid back, more natural, emphasis on the music rather than the excitement of the sound. But the Antelope is very exciting if you like adrenaline fun from your audio system.

Holy shit that's long!! Like the old days!   :rofl:
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 04:03:11 PM by richidoo »

Offline StereoNut

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Re: my search for a new dac
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2013, 05:36:10 PM »
Holy shit that's long!! Like the old days!   :rofl:

We love it, Rich!
:beer:

Your post above was like a big 'ol plate of comfort food at Grandma's house vs. all of the "small plates and nouvelle cuisine" that been the typical fare here lately!

Keep servin' it up!  :drool:

SN
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mgalusha

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Re: my search for a new dac
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2013, 05:58:14 PM »
I've built several Buffalo's and Rich is right on the money. The Buffalo's care about the power and what is done for the output. My last iteration used Belleson regulators and Lundahl output transformers. Works pretty well.

A friend brought by a Yulong Sabre DA8 today. I thought it was very nice. It's been a little while since I've heard the Mytek or exaSound but from what I recall I say it's about on par with the exa and likely better than the Mytek, at least for my tastes. He ordered it from Grant Fidelity, $1,300 I think and setup was painless though the "docs" are pretty awful. I tried redbook to 24/192 and DSD and no hiccups. I meant to try some of the DXD demos but forgot.

mike

Offline hifial

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Re: my search for a new dac
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2013, 09:59:52 PM »
Hi Mike. I second Rich on the exaSound e20 MKII or MKIII DAC ($2,500-2,900) and the Antelope. I would also add the Hilo by Lynx ($2,500). Antelope has a new DAC coming out soon, the Platinum ($4,800). All these DACs have outboard power supplies and can have the sound of their playback improved with a power upgrade.
I have heard both the e20 MK III (I am demoing it right now) and the Hilo (in a friends system). I have heard an Antelope but not the new one.
The e20 needs no special USB cable/power upgrade. It was designed to sound great with a standard USB cable.

The Lynx and exaSound both have a 30 day home demo. Not sure about the Antelope.
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Offline bhobba

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Re: my search for a new dac
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2013, 03:15:33 AM »
One last note, I assume anything with the ESS chip will provide jitter protection as I don't want to get a unit like the SM Reclocker. I don't want another box and more cables unless I have to.....

I would like that to be true but unfortunately it aren't.  On my WFS Saber DAC an Off-Ramp made a big difference. The fact of the matter is the Saber chip aren't as jitter immune its made out to be.

Thanks
Bill

Offline gopher

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Re: my search for a new dac
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2013, 04:39:31 AM »
How about a Lampizator?

Lukas is supposed to have a lot of new stuff

If your even somewhat interested in this drop me a PM.  I have some info that could get one in your hands a LOT less expensively then you think...

Offline richidoo

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Re: my search for a new dac
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2013, 07:16:15 AM »
It aren't true that Sabre provides jitter protection?

Just because offramp makes it sound even better doesn't mean ESS has no jitter removal. Yes, I can still hear an improvement with better cables and transports, but that doesn't mean ESS isn't doing anything. My Sonos is unlistenable through DACs with no jitter reduction. It sounds very good now, so Sabre is definitely doing something. That's why I switched to this DAC. Very strong jitter reduction technology at a very low price is the reason ESS has become so popular.

The brain has infinite resolution. There is always something better. Antelope has an atomic clock for home use. But ESS has brought the sound of true high end digital down to budget minded audiophiles. Add an offramp to it if you want, or cables or Herbies feet or whatever and it may get even better. But don't discount the value of ESS jitter reduction right inside the DAC chip itself for $40 mfg cost. There are better ways to reduce jitter in the digital stream, but they are significantly more expensive and therefore less valuable than Sabre which reduces jitter in the chip. Send it clean word stream and it will have less work to do, maybe it can then achieve even finer jitter reduction. My experience says that is the case.

Offline Nick B

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Re: my search for a new dac
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2013, 03:19:24 PM »
Whew..where do I start....  First off, thanks Rich for your expose on the Buffalo. That must have taken a lot of time. I am glad you are not my attorney as I could not afford to pay you by the word :) I have been on the website of every dac mentioned here. Some are in a price range beyond my comfort zone ie $1500, but I'm keeping an open mind. All of these would be a nice bump up from my modded SB 2, but with my outboard ps and Black Sands Silver Reference cord, it sounds pretty good to me. So I've nowhere to go but up. That EE dac + on Agon is still intriguing as it has the ESS chip and all for a $1000. I don't think I could make any bad choices with the dacs listed here. I am a bit of a detail/resolution freak, but also love the analogue-like sound of some tube amps and the YBA for example. Again, I am used to having a bit of a harsh sound with my old CIA D 100's and my dac. With the newly McCormack DNA 1.0 Deluxe waiting in California to be picked up, I'll have a head start already. I thank you all for the comments...very helpful so far. I'll be sending a couple of PM's as well to topround and Rich
Orchard Starkrimson Ultra amp
Supratek Chardonnay preamp
JMR Voce Grande speakers
Border Patrol SEi dac
Holo Red streamer
Hapa Aero digital coax
WyWires Silver cables
TWL Digital American II p cord
Audio Envy p cords
Roon, Tidal, Qobuz
PI Audio UberBUSS

Offline richidoo

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Re: my search for a new dac
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2013, 06:11:27 PM »
Nick PMed about my old Buff32. I took some pics for him then plugged it in to make sure it still worked.  Damn it sounded good! Not as airy or refined as the trannies, but the meat is back on the bones as Charlie would say! So I am very encouraged by this, to add an active current stage to the Buffalo2. I'm gonna hold onto this Buffalo32 until I get my other one up to snuff. I already have the Legato kit which is discreet bipolar output stage for Buffalo2, just gotta build it and make sure it's better than Buff32! Otherwise I'll be keeping this little bugger that I've owned for 4 years...  :duh
Thanks for serendipitously helping me nail down my DAC problem Nick!

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Re: my search for a new dac
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2013, 06:58:06 PM »
It would be fun to design a 6SN7 tube output stage for a DAC... I think the one you posted is going to give you the "tube effect" and sound kinda slow with a loss of detail and dynamics. This is based on using an ECC99 and 12BH7 as a driver for my SET amp, which is very similar to the 6N6P. My amp (Simple SE) also used a solid state CCS plate load on the driver, so it had that advantage over the 6N6P schematic. When I built my Aikido preamp I experimented with using it in place of the amp's driver stage vs taking the Aikido out and going straight to the amp with digital volume control and 12BH7 driver in place... I know the digital vc in foobar is not ideal and it accounts for some of the differences. But the difference is massive...  So that gives me the idea of re-purposing an Aikido PCB as a DAC output stage. I'm not sure what voltage a typical DAC chip puts out, but a 6SN7 Aikido would have the same gain as the 6N6P schematic, 10x or 20dB.

I am going to bring my Schiit Bifrost over to mgalusha's place next week. I am very interested to hear what I am missing out on, or hopefully find out it's at least ok. We will see how good this Schiit really is.