Author Topic: Non-Oversampling DAC's  (Read 23080 times)

miklorsmith

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Re: Non-Oversampling DAC's
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2008, 03:16:13 PM »
Care to elaborate?

Offline Carlman

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Re: Non-Oversampling DAC's
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2008, 03:22:25 PM »
Yeah, I'd like all the details of what you're talking about, Rollo...

BTW, thanks for listing the additional DAC's, Tan.

-Carl

I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline rollo

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Re: Non-Oversampling DAC's
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2008, 08:33:50 AM »
  What details are you interested in. Imo the DACs under $500 are good at best IMO. The only way you will know what I mean is to try a 47 Labs, Levinson, MSB, MBL, Meridian, Esoteric, Lector, Weiss, Accuphase, Audio Note. Sure I left a few out. Expensive yes. Thats the problem.
   Do a direct comparison to the DAC of the week in your system. Its just no contest. I have directly compared several of the DACs mentioned above to the $500 crowd. The only one that stood out was the modded Oritek and custom power supply.
  Jusy my view from actual experience in my system. Sorry if its not a popular position for the budget minded. No it dosn't have to be expensive to sound good, just great.


rollo
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Non-Oversampling DAC's
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2008, 11:27:04 AM »
Lots of what makes an Esoteric or Levinson DAC expensive has nothing to do with the sound. They are very pretty, and so are the rooms in which their dealers sell them. That said, there is a lot of excellent engineering and good ears designing those products, so I agree they do sound wonderful.

To make good digital you need silent, fast DC power for chip and output, good DAC chip, vibration control, jitter attenuation, output filter (for OS chips) and output amp stage. These basics can cost a lot, or very little. Altmann's approach is to minimize distortion modes wherever possible, and this is done by simplifying the design to the extreme. Battery eliminates all the problems with AC/DC PS. Wood base eliminates the problems with the museum quality metal box. NOS chip eliminates the smoothing filter. Proprietary programmed reciever chip reduces jitter so it doesn't matter what transport or cable you use. Powerful but simple opamp output stage provides perfect load for the DAC and drive for any load following so no high freqs are lost as with many other NOS DAC designs. It is simple and elegant and the sound is proof of the concept of eliminating distortion. The choices also result in drastically lowered price compared to similar performing DAC whose designers have chosen to reduce all these distortion modes in more traditional ways.

I don't need RS232 control, UL Listing, or silk screened cast aluminum faceplate, golden metal spikes, AES/SBU input or balanced connectors in the back. I don't need a local dealer to help me turn it on and collect tax. I can charge the battery once a month by flipping on the charger with a wall switch. It's ugly but my wife doesn't care because my whole stereo is ugly in her eyes. I have compared it to SB analog, previous couple of Scott Nixon DACs (not the very latest) and hometheaterdoc's Oracle transport and DAC and a small handful of CD players including Mike's Cambridge 804, Rega Apollo. Of these the Oracle combo was my favorite, but I still do prefer the ease of NOS sound. The Altmann is the only NOS DAC I have heard that retains the excitement and clarity of high freqs. It is not laid back at all, it is just easy sounding. It just goes into my head without effort. One friend thinks the 2134s are a little edgy, but it doesn't bother me.

When combined with Altmann's BYOB integrated amp using similar design distortion reducing principles, it is a very fun ride for only $2,500 total electronics cost, including battery charger and stock Squeezebox, only IF 10 watts is enough.
Rich

Offline Carlman

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Re: Non-Oversampling DAC's
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2008, 12:27:01 PM »
  What details are you interested in. Imo the DACs under $500 are good at best IMO. The only way you will know what I mean is to try a 47 Labs, Levinson, MSB, MBL, Meridian, Esoteric, Lector, Weiss, Accuphase, Audio Note. Sure I left a few out. Expensive yes. Thats the problem.
   Do a direct comparison to the DAC of the week in your system. Its just no contest. I have directly compared several of the DACs mentioned above to the $500 crowd. The only one that stood out was the modded Oritek and custom power supply.
  Jusy my view from actual experience in my system. Sorry if its not a popular position for the budget minded. No it dosn't have to be expensive to sound good, just great.
rollo
OK, I see... so Rollo's just saying expensive DAC's with good reputations are better than cheap ones with very little reputation... in his experience... I get it now... This thread is all about non-oversampling DAC's so wasn't sure what the point was... now I see.

As to having more detail, typically one would like to know what differences you heard.. not just 'it was better'.  If I drove an Acura, and said it was better than a Mercedes you might wonder which model and in what ways was it better?  Was it better for you personally or better in absolute terms?

That's how your statements come across... like you're just blanket saying that all sub 500 dacs suck except the modified Oritek, which wasn't bad... and has no connection with what this thread is about.

So, no one is getting defensive, just confused that I can see...

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Non-Oversampling DAC's
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2008, 06:37:54 PM »
I hope I didn't get too excited on my last post. Rereading it sounds a little defensive, but I didn't intend that. Just tech stuff. rollo, I don;t want you to think I was pointing all that excitement at you. Just having fun bragging about my little wooden dac. haha

Offline rollo

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Re: Non-Oversampling DAC's
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2008, 06:33:37 AM »
  What details are you interested in. Imo the DACs under $500 are good at best IMO. The only way you will know what I mean is to try a 47 Labs, Levinson, MSB, MBL, Meridian, Esoteric, Lector, Weiss, Accuphase, Audio Note. Sure I left a few out. Expensive yes. Thats the problem.
   Do a direct comparison to the DAC of the week in your system. Its just no contest. I have directly compared several of the DACs mentioned above to the $500 crowd. The only one that stood out was the modded Oritek and custom power supply.
  Jusy my view from actual experience in my system. Sorry if its not a popular position for the budget minded. No it dosn't have to be expensive to sound good, just great.
rollo
 
               
OK, I see... so Rollo's just saying expensive DAC's with good reputations are better than cheap ones with very little reputation... in his experience... I get it now... This thread is all about non-oversampling DAC's so wasn't sure what the point was... now I see.

As to having more detail, typically one would like to know what differences you heard.. not just 'it was better'.  If I drove an Acura, and said it was better than a Mercedes you might wonder which model and in what ways was it better?  Was it better for you personally or better in absolute terms?

That's how your statements come across... like you're just blanket saying that all sub 500 dacs suck except the modified Oritek, which wasn't bad... and has no connection with what this thread is about.

So, no one is getting defensive, just confused that I can see...

-C
   

    Well sorry if I went off topic. Defensive not one bit.  I said that the ones I have heard IN MY SYSTEM sucked compared to the ones mentioned . Yes for me personally. Never made blanket statement from heresay. My opinion is based on experience. Did I do a detailed note taking comparison ? NO, why because it was obvious from the start it was not required. They all were lacking weight, authority, image size, depth, extended top end and bass extention. The bass in general was VG overall for all the $500 DACs. Compared to the Esoteric or Levinson just no contest.
   There was a sense of continuance with the expensive DACs that eluded the wanna bees. The overall presentation was more believable. The effortless authority, air, space and image size of the sound was hard to ignore. 
    So just to clarify my position. IN MY OPINION FROM LISTENING IN MY SYSTEM THE SUB $500 DACS auditioned DID NOT DO IT FOR ME. Absolutely nothing defensive about that.   

 Ultimately where all the sub $500 DACs failed for me was the top end presentations. The Paradesia was bright and hard, Scott Nixon Hi Fi sounding, Promitheus, laidback and metallic sounding cymbals, Beresford, Bright and hard small soundstage.
     I believe my system is revealing enough to enable me to make these judgements. My take is try the inexpensive DACs and see for yourself. Do a direct comparison in your system. Better is better.
     It hurts me to say this as you know but the Promitheus DAC for the money probably takes the cake in the under $500 arena. 


   rollo
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Offline Carlman

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Re: Non-Oversampling DAC's
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2008, 07:52:50 AM »
Cool, just to clarify, that's all I was asking... just some more detail about what you were talking about and if there was a tie-in to the non-os topic... I was confused, that's all.  So, thanks for your elaboration! :)

I do plan on comparing a lot of things once I have my system in place.  I'm building the room now... my house smells like sawdust... Just a matter of time.

-C
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Non-Oversampling DAC's
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2008, 07:56:59 AM »
rollo, if you ever wanna try my Altmann DAC for a quick spin, just ask. But you will need a car battery to do it justice.
Rich

miklorsmith

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Re: Non-Oversampling DAC's
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2008, 08:55:11 AM »
I'm actually very happy with a good sized SLA for mine.  But, I haven't run it off a car battery.

Offline richidoo

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Re: Non-Oversampling DAC's
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2008, 09:42:36 AM »
It's just in case you need 800 amp peak, like on bass drum or something. hahaha 

miklorsmith

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Re: Non-Oversampling DAC's
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2008, 09:52:48 AM »
I might have a chance to try out a Paul Hynes AC supply for the thing . . .

Offline rollo

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Re: Non-Oversampling DAC's
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2008, 05:12:49 PM »
Cool, just to clarify, that's all I was asking... just some more detail about what you were talking about and if there was a tie-in to the non-os topic... I was confused, that's all.  So, thanks for your elaboration! :)

I do plan on comparing a lot of things once I have my system in place.  I'm building the room now... my house smells like sawdust... Just a matter of time.

-C
 

    No problem man. How is the room coming? Should be wonderfull. There is nothing like a dedicated room especially when done correctly. Best of luck, your gonna be one happy camper.
    Are you laying out the room for a particular speaker ? Were all coming over with the beer when its done. PARTEE !



rollo 
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Offline rollo

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Re: Non-Oversampling DAC's
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2008, 05:16:47 PM »
rollo, if you ever wanna try my Altmann DAC for a quick spin, just ask. But you will need a car battery to do it justice.
Rich

 

  Richadoo thanks for the offer. If I can borrow Lonewolfs battery I would love to compare to Lector CDP 7 and a Levinson reference DAC. Could be enlightening. Let you know. Thanks again,your the best.


rollo
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Offline richidoo

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Re: Non-Oversampling DAC's
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2008, 06:47:19 PM »
I might have a chance to try out a Paul Hynes AC supply for the thing . . .

Now that would be interesting! I am a big fan of his stuff, but don't have any yet. Nanosecond rise time! That spells M-U-S-I-C!!!!

If I can borrow Lonewolfs battery I would love to compare to Lector CDP 7 and a Levinson reference DAC.

Just pull the batt out of your Lincoln or snoblower for the afternoon. Any starter motor battery will be big enough to give you the flava. It is only a dac, so peak current can't be more than 500ma. When you find a battery let me know, but it will have to be QUICK! How long can a man live without air? ;)