New Grover IC impressions (August 2007 graphite version)

[LKdog]

Hi everyone, I'm back. I have to admit I'm surprised. I thought you guys would be in audio heaven. Of course the highest frequencies are the most critical when listening for every stage of the audio chain. In my opinion these charcoal cables are extraordinary though out the frequency range. The White cables to me were a little rolled off up there without the resolving power needed to hear say a single triangle in the mist of the orchestra. I also think the charcoal cables have a finer cleaner character. I know every thing is system dependent, but in my opinion hardness in the upper mids and highs may be elsewhere in the chain. Digital is very sensitive in this respect. If some wish I can change the cables to change the high frequency character, but I don't recommend it. Copper cables sound smooth and cover over many equipment flaws, but the sound is also covered, and not very revealing in my opinion. I worked hard to perfect these cables as you have read from Rmacklin. To me the ability of these cables to resolve the being at the recording session with lush smooth musicality especially in the vocals makes these cables very remarkable.

Grover-

I think those that are enjoying the cables may be using tubes or have a system that matches up well with the character of the cables.
I do have other tubes I can use to tame things down, but I am not sure I wish to start that merry go round. I like the Amperex 7316's I am using due to their extraordinary balance and clarity without glare. Their reputation as a reference tube is well deserved.

As far as assigning causation to "something else in the chain".......... 
I have used all silver IC's for years. My system is quite similar to many here and the amps/preamp/speakers are voiced quite neutral to slightly warm.
My modded source measures as flat as anything Paul Weitzel ever created at TRL.
In addition I have extensive room tx and AC power filtering-all the usual stuff we obsessive fools do.
My system is inherently warm/analog sounding.

I just think the IC's are slightly forward (there is complete consensus on this point), and they border on too hot for some tastes in the treble.

I am going to give them a couple more weeks of break in to see if they work out.
They are quite good without a doubt in many ways. The midrange on down is excellent.
You state you have voiced them differently in the high end.
It appears some people love that and some who have your previous versions are not so sure.

Can't please everybody, especially in this nutty group.

Best regards.

[djbnh]

Can't please everybody, especially in this nutty group.

Best regards.

Amen. It should be about what works for each individual, being comfortable to know what one prefers, with an eye to the wallet as well for most of us. NOTE: I'm not constrained by WAF per divorce, but with my youngest starting college, the wallet's definitely a factor. 

[LKdog]

Can't please everybody, especially in this nutty group.

Best regards.

Amen. It should be about what works for each individual, being comfortable to know what one prefers, with an eye to the wallet as well for most of us. NOTE: I'm not constrained by WAF per divorce, but with my youngest starting college, the wallet's definitely a factor. 

Grover's cables are certainly a great value and likely can stand up well to cables at any price.
Like any cable it has to work with your setup. Some people love BMW's. Some people love Lexus.
Some people love Hummers. They are all excellent. Grover's cables are in the category of excellent-period-regardless of price is my guess.

Speaker wire and IC's especially are a total joke in terms of markup.
Look over on Audiogon and the prices for some IC's is in the thousands of dollars.
Sorry-there is nothing a $5000 piece of three foot wire can do that makes that amount of investment worthwhile. Yes, wire makes a difference and they are maybe even at the level of secondary components, but you have to have good equipment first and foremost.

With the relative price of the competition-Grover's cables are a ridiculous value.

[grover]

I really love the graphite version in my system. In my system it's perfectly balanced and is perfection. I know now that some systems might need a softer top end, in my opinion because of the front end. I believe that most digital front end tends to be hard in the upper midrange. It's because of the electrolyte capacitors that are used due to the necessity for the high microfard capacitance needed both in the power supply, and the analogue circuitry.  I sincerely believe that with this graphite cable your hearing truly what you’re getting. That's one reason why tubes are used with digital, as they have a very smooth top end, and transistors tend to be a bit harsh up there when feedback is limited. My system is very sensitive to any harshness. All my electronics are my own design using subminiature tubes in the preamp stages. My amps also my own design using Russian transmitting tubes delivering 125 watts per amp. I use big Electro voice horns that are extraordinary resolving, and quick. The Electro voice Sentry III. My front end is a highly modified Pioneer Elite DVD player DV-05 it has soundly beat all comers even $6000 players,  originally it also was hard and bright in the upper mids. If any one wants my modifications to the DVD player email me. If any one wants me to tone down the upper ranges it can be done quickly and easily, with out charge. It is my sincere desire to have everyone very satisfied with my cables.

[jrebman]

Grover,

Very, very cool system you have!

Can I ask what submini tubes you are using?

Just for the record, right now things are only slightly tipped up in my system, but practically everything is new and still breaking in, and with a few weeks of downtime rapidly approaching, it will be a while yet before I know the final verdict.  My hunch as of now is that these are going to be a great match with my system, but it's good to know you can tone it down a bit should that be needed.

While I have your attention, can I ask what is the price for single run speaker cables, and can you make them with a spade on the speaker end?  I know you would probably rather not do that, but I have a particular need for them.

Thanks,

Jim

[Carlman]

I hope we can always get the white on white cables from the first group buy.  To me, those are the best. 

It'd be nice if there were 2 versions offered, the S and the SII maybe... The first group buy and second group buy cables are different enough to do that in my opinion.... whatever that's worth.

-C

[grover]

Of course I can make any version. So far many very reliable fanatics love the graphite version. Since I’m back I’ll take a close listen to both. I use the 5719 as the first amplifier, 6814 as the second amplifier, and the 5977 as the cathode follower. I use two feed back loops to stabilize the amps, very minimum feedback. The volume control is a single resistor with an audio pot to bleed the signal to ground, located behind the follower. Parallel capacitors chosen carefully to keep the signal linear. Any one who wants the first group buy cables may trade in the second group buy cables, or vice versa. At least this keeps things interesting.

[LKdog]

I really love the graphite version in my system. In my system it's perfectly balanced and is perfection. I know now that some systems might need a softer top end, in my opinion because of the front end. I believe that most digital front end tends to be hard in the upper midrange. It's because of the electrolyte capacitors that are used due to the necessity for the high microfard capacitance needed both in the power supply, and the analogue circuitry.  I sincerely believe that with this graphite cable your hearing truly what you’re getting. That's one reason why tubes are used with digital, as they have a very smooth top end, and transistors tend to be a bit harsh up there when feedback is limited. My system is very sensitive to any harshness. All my electronics are my own design using subminiature tubes in the preamp stages. My amps also my own design using Russian transmitting tubes delivering 125 watts per amp. I use big Electro voice horns that are extraordinary resolving, and quick. The Electro voice Sentry III. My front end is a highly modified Pioneer Elite DVD player DV-05 it has soundly beat all comers even $6000 players,  originally it also was hard and bright in the upper mids. If any one wants my modifications to the DVD player email me. If any one wants me to tone down the upper ranges it can be done quickly and easily, with out charge. It is my sincere desire to have everyone very satisfied with my cables.

You are sort of confirming what people are saying.
Perfectly balanced in your system which happens to be a custom tube preamp and tube power amp.
Interesting reference system and I am sure quite good. Not the norm, however.

They are close to ideal in my setup which is a very good tube pre and very good SS amps.
The last thing my system needed was a softer top end. The reason I actually bought these is because they were advertised as having extraordinary clarity, but still smooth. I was seeking a bit more resolution in my setup. Certainly got that.

Just talked to another person who has both recent Grover versions and he agrees that these have a lot of "extra energy" on top to his ears.

This is all phenomenological at a certain point as there is no IC that is perfect in all setups.

These are excellent IC's, Grover, without question.
Will give them a couple more weeks of burn in and let you know if I wish to have you turn them back a notch on top somehow or swap them for the most recent previous white version.
I appreciate the offer and I am sure something will work out.

[mdconnelly]

Grover,

The graphite RCA ICs that I just purchased are working extremely well in my system now that I've got a couple hundred hours on them.  They're not going anywhere.   Thank you!

What I am curious about is if your latest graphite XLR ICs would be an improvement over my earlier purchase of the white w/black XLR ICs from the earlier GB?   I know when you switched from white w/black to white w/white, the change was only in the RCA terminations.   

   

[richidoo]

Once again, I am blown away by Grover's willingness to try to make everyone happy. Something I try too hard to achieve, but rarely do... hehe  Thanks, Grover.

I have had the Charcoal wires here for two weeks and have literally not had a chance to hook them up until tonight. I can see what you guys are talking about with the top end. It is noticeably enhanced but it is not overbearing to me. It is a lot more detailed, but is not annoying or aggressive. It adds a lot of air and presence to strings and brass, and as Grover said orchestral bells and tinkly things are wild, the overtones go on forever.  These cables reveal more of what I love about tube amp treble.

I can now clearly hear the dirty growl in the chimes and triangle from my SB, I presume, since that distortion was not present with the Altmann DAC. The problem with lowering distortion in one place is now you can hear it in 3 other places.   I'm sure the cables will change with some break in, and will be interesting to compare to whiteys next week. I'll try to finish the SC break in this week too.

Tony, you can still try my whites if you want to compare them directly.

No system is the 'norm,' they are all very 'special,' just like their owners...   
Rich

[jrebman]

Rich,

Yup, even though they were the white ICs you lent me, they did great things in concert with the minimax.  It wasn't until I tried those that I really understood all the minimax was capable of.

-- Jim

[Carlman]

Grover has (graciously) agreed to upgrade the original demo pairs of cables for us to the first group buy version and the 2nd group buy version.  So, I'll have a couple sets available if anyone wants to hear the newer graphites or white/white versions.  Let me know and I'll ship either or both sets. 

I'm shipping the old ones to Grover tomorrow so I'm guessing it'll be a couple of weeks but they may get done sooner.. just depends on Grover's schedule.

Thanks,
Carl

[Nick B]

Grover
I have the graphite IC's and posted a very positive review recently in another section on this site. I still have limited hours on them and need to break in my new speakers as well. The resolution on the graphite's is excellent and in my system, they are very enjoyable. I did demo the white's, but don't have a set of those to compare now. You really produce an excellent cable and great value for the money. Congratulations and thank you   
Nick

[richidoo]

Carl, I still have one pair of the original set of four pair Grover sent as demos. I keep forgetting to return it to you. I can send to you tomorrow or direct to Grover. Lemme know. 

Grover, after only 5 hours of playing, the cables sound awesome. They are exactly what you said, beautiful extension on the highs, a noticeable improvement, one very worthwhile for a PP tuber with yummy high freq. response.    Harmonics on brass, strings are stunningly clear including the grunge of the SB player screwing with them which is painfully obvious now. Great job! I think I will be sending my whites in for update after all! I will be sending a "tip" to cover some materials cost to do the update. I was content with the whites, they were everything you said they were at the time. Now there's something better, I don't mind paying to update it. I may not be in the majority here, though....  haha
Rich

[bixby]

Well, I finally got a chance to listen to the Grover S XLR cables after about 200 hours of burning in.  I have not had a pair of cables in the XLR format in my system that was of this calibre before so my reference is limited to what I have had in the system with another DAC and with single ended cables.

On with the First Impressions then!

Pros:

Quiet cables with good dark background
Dynamic in the low end.  Really impressive on the lower bass notes.
Good low end extension.  Really digs deep.
Spacious, good width and depth.
Smooth, no raspiness that is apparent to the cable, when the source has some raspy stuff the cable will reproduce it.
Reminds me of my Jaden Signature single ended cables

Concerns:
Some mids, not all, seem a little recessed, perhaps that is the newfound depth.
Some instruments with tones in the upper midrange seem to be tonally off a tad.  eg. trumpet.  Will have to do some more listening
Cymbals don't quite seem right, many times the weight is lacking, kind of like a thinner cymbal than normal, less brassy.
Some percussive effects lack the leading transient edge.
Some acoustic guitar tracks seem to have too much fingerboard emphasis.
Piano seems a bit light on the upper keys on a few reference recordings as do certain strings like harp.

I am impressed with the cables and they are clearly a good value.  I have some more listening to do, since this is only a first pass based on about 3 hours of listening.



cheers