Cable strategies

[rollo]

  All cables have a sonic signature period. Resistance, inductance and capacitance all play a role in sonics.
 Inductance affects bass, capacitance the top end and resistance affects detail, clarity and overall character.
  Any cable should be judged by its entire assembly not any ONE part of the assembly.
   a neutral cable is one that does not favor any part of the spectrum. Not bright, dark, lean or fat. A linear presentation so to speak. No part of the frequency range stands out.
    The digital interface is a tough one to settle on. BNC, SPDIF, balanced. Oye ! First off a true 75 Ohm cable measured from tip to tip is a VG start. BNC is the perferred connector.
    The digital link is critical to great sound. Try as many as you can. Avoid balanced as CD was not designed for balanced connection. It is flawed.
     Speaker cable for us over the years has wrought more change than any other cable change [ digital excluded ].
      Synergy must be found for each system as the loads are not equal on the components one has.
      The wire itself is a good start, connectors as well however the final assembly is really what matters.



charles   

[Nick B]

  All cables have a sonic signature period. Resistance, inductance and capacitance all play a role in sonics.
 Inductance affects bass, capacitance the top end and resistance affects detail, clarity and overall character.
  Any cable should be judged by its entire assembly not any ONE part of the assembly.
   a neutral cable is one that does not favor any part of the spectrum. Not bright, dark, lean or fat. A linear presentation so to speak. No part of the frequency range stands out.
    The digital interface is a tough one to settle on. BNC, SPDIF, balanced. Oye ! First off a true 75 Ohm cable measured from tip to tip is a VG start. BNC is the perferred connector.
    The digital link is critical to great sound. Try as many as you can. Avoid balanced as CD was not designed for balanced connection. It is flawed.
     Speaker cable for us over the years has wrought more change than any other cable change [ digital excluded ].
      Synergy must be found for each system as the loads are not equal on the components one has.
      The wire itself is a good start, connectors as well however the final assembly is really what matters.



charles   

Hmmm.....component interaction. Who knew this could get so complicated??
I appreciate your comments. Lots to consider and I'm learning a lot from this discussion

[Werd]

  All cables have a sonic signature period. Resistance, inductance and capacitance all play a role in sonics.
 Inductance affects bass, capacitance the top end and resistance affects detail, clarity and overall character.
  Any cable should be judged by its entire assembly not any ONE part of the assembly.
   a neutral cable is one that does not favor any part of the spectrum. Not bright, dark, lean or fat. A linear presentation so to speak. No part of the frequency range stands out.
    The digital interface is a tough one to settle on. BNC, SPDIF, balanced. Oye ! First off a true 75 Ohm cable measured from tip to tip is a VG start. BNC is the perferred connector.
    The digital link is critical to great sound. Try as many as you can. Avoid balanced as CD was not designed for balanced connection. It is flawed.
     Speaker cable for us over the years has wrought more change than any other cable change [ digital excluded ].
      Synergy must be found for each system as the loads are not equal on the components one has.
      The wire itself is a good start, connectors as well however the final assembly is really what matters.



charles   

On XLR it has to be transformer choked or its no good. If you got that its better. If you don't its sounds limp.

[Werd]

 All cables have a sonic signature period. Resistance, inductance and capacitance all play a role in sonics.
 Inductance affects bass, capacitance the top end and resistance affects detail, clarity and overall character.
  Any cable should be judged by its entire assembly not any ONE part of the assembly.
   a neutral cable is one that does not favor any part of the spectrum. Not bright, dark, lean or fat. A linear presentation so to speak. No part of the frequency range stands out.
    The digital interface is a tough one to settle on. BNC, SPDIF, balanced. Oye ! First off a true 75 Ohm cable measured from tip to tip is a VG start. BNC is the perferred connector.
    
     Speaker cable for us over the years has wrought more change than any other cable change [ digital excluded ].
      Synergy must be found for each system as the loads are not equal on the components one has.
      The wire itself is a good start, connectors as well however the final assembly is really what matters.



charles    

Speaker cables are interesting and they seem to offer the biggest bang for the buck. I'm using Gutwire synchrony2 at 10'feet. I just heard the next generation synchrony 2s. They are like about $1600 for 8 feet.
They tonal sound is identical. Where they differ is the newer has a wider sound soundstage which also makes it sound more beefier. It was way better.

This improvement is more of a trick than anything. I am guessing all they've done is parallel another pos and neg cable that drops it impedance the amp sees. The new version cable is thicker.

I would like to find another older Synchrony thats in spades terminated so I can run it into my amp to see.

Speaker cable is largely about resolution and digital is about prat.

[DaveC]

Speaker cable is much more variable in results vs ic cable because there is much more difference in speaker crossover and amp design than there is with the environment ics work in.

Systems using class D amps are very unpredictable as to the results you get not only with cabling but with many aspects of system setup too. The word "tweaky" comes to mind...

[rollo]

Speaker cable is much more variable in results vs ic cable because there is much more difference in speaker crossover and amp design than there is with the environment ics work in.

Systems using class D amps are very unpredictable as to the results you get not only with cabling but with many aspects of system setup too. The word "tweaky" comes to mind...

  Speaker cable has brought the most change for me over the years. Wether I use any of my amps as follows. Audio Research Classic 60 0r AR DR250 servo. Consonance 211 SET mono blocks or my beloved Arion Class "D" hybrid.
   Speaker cables in the house are, Stealth silver ribbon, Lenehan copper ribbon, TWL all American,  James Morey multistrand, Sperry coaxial silver and last but not least Radio Shack double run 14Ga.
   All offer a different sonic sing with each amp used. Each has its place and not one conquers all. The most consistent and neutral to date has been TWL.
    If I had no intention of changing out any component then hard wire with no connector would be used. Si Senor solder directly to board. One can determine the sound of any connector when added. Not practical for most however a huge improvement in sound. Same for speaker cable. Unless it is cold welded then bare wire.
    Saying class "D" amps are tweaky means what ? 100K, 1.5v input sensitivity 500w/8ohm,1000W/4)Ohm, 2000w/2Ohm load. Wired internally with JPS SC-3 and Cardas silver.



charles
   
     

[tmazz]

Speaker cable is much more variable in results vs ic cable because there is much more difference in speaker crossover and amp design than there is with the environment ics work in.

It is also a matter of simple physics. Inductive and capacitive impedance vary as functions of current and voltage rise times. When looking as the same signal as it goes through an IC and a speaker cable in a given system the frequency of the signal should be the same in both cables but since the IC is only a line level signal the amount of voltage and current swing across a speaker cable is much great (this of course the the whole reason we have power amp in the first place.) so if the timeframe of the rise is the same, but the amount of the rise is much greater, then the rise time will be much quicker (or in other words a much higher number of volts or amps per unit of time). this means that simply put the not linear effects of capacitive and inductive impedance in a speaker cable will be far greater than one would see in an IC simply because the signal far carried by a speaker cable by its very nature produces higher voltage and current wings. It is just the nature of the beast.

[BobM]

You could say much the same thing about power cables as speaker cables (except they are not signal carrying), but it is funny how many people don't believe a power cable can change the sound of a system.

[tmazz]

You could say much the same thing about power cables as speaker cables (except they are not signal carrying), but it is funny how many people don't believe a power cable can change the sound of a system.

Except that in the case of a power cable the signal is of a fixed frequency so whatever the capacitive and inductive impedances are, they are. Givena fixed frequency signal those impedances never change and for all intents and purposes they simply become part of the cable resistance (or the most part, I guess any noise riding on the cable could be seen as frequency changes, but the noise is very small compared to the carried AC voltage.) Having a fixed impedance added to the cable resistance is not a problem with a power cord. The problem comes in when the a cable to carry an audio signal the impedance is not linear across the audio band and therefore effects different frequencies in different ways, which leads to distortion of the signal.

That said, to totally agree with Bob that power cords can have a profound impact on the sound of a high end system. I am completely baffled as to how or why the change the sound, but i know what I hear and there is no doubt in my mind that they do. (I have had half a dozen people, with ears that I rust, listen to my system with and without the TWL power cords and not only did they all hear a difference, but they all described and identified the same changes that I did.)

[DaveC]

Good points tmazz 

With speaker cables not only does the impedance vary with frequency but elements of the crossover and the speaker motor itsself are reactive and of a low impedance.

On power cords, they are also acting as a filter (any cable really) and it's characteristics are very audible in the amplified signal that the AC power is used to create. Also, in most gear the ground wire in your power cord is connecting the ground plane of your components together the same way the ground wires in ic cables do. This forms a pathway for signal return, and this definitely makes a difference in sound quality as well as how much noise your system generates due to differences in the potential of components' ground planes. It's also the reason I feel it's best to connect your system to the house's power at a single point using a power distribution system.

[tmazz]

Good points tmazz 

My mother killed all the dumb ones.... 

[Werd]

You could say much the same thing about power cables as speaker cables (except they are not signal carrying), but it is funny how many people don't believe a power cable can change the sound of a system.

I actually think power cables represent an unconfirmed electrical phenomenon. Its possible that using a larger cable at the amp changes the entire impedance of the 14gauge right to the neighbourhood transformer. I wouldn't know how to test it but the amp might see the impedance of the aftermarket power cable wire as if it was the entire length to (maybe fuse box) or transformer at that impedance.

All appliances in the neighbour hood are in fight mode for power from the local transformer. Current will take the easiest path. So it might be useful to drop the entire impedance of your house to ensure stiff power. You can do that by hospital grade outlets and better power cables hardwires to all appliances in your house. Another Werd inkling, but it solves why power cables can be so different from cheaper ones.

[rollo]

   Dave could not agree more about a single point distribution system.
    A few thingies really helped at the panel. first was getting all the motors, refrig, boiler, AC on the same leg. Which freed up the other for normal house wiring. Changing out the 60 year old breakers. Cleaning and tightening the house ground. Cleaning the ground clamp at the cold water pipe and refitting.
    Adding cryo treated outlets at the wall. When installing the outlets the house wire was chemically cleaned and polished then Pro gold and tightened down.  The duplex recept. were soaked in a chemical treatment to remove any manf. residue.The brass clip that connects one recept. to another in the duplex outlet was snapped away and 10Ga wire was used to connect one recpt. to another. Squeaky clean and ready to rumble.
    Do not overlook the recept. at the wall. A big improvement can be heard.
     All gear is connected to two Uberbusses. One for digital only and one for all else. TWL 7+ to Ubers and TWL to everything else. For digital TWL latest digital PC is the bomb. No going back after hearing that baby.
     BTW guys if you have a PC that is not in use plug it in your TV and be amazed.


charles
    Crystal treatment at the entering wire bundle to panel [ alan maher ]

[DaveC]

I have decided to try out the Furutech GTX, it's not cheap but the design looks amazing. My panel is right next to my stereo, will wire it up with 10 gauge. The GTX and Leviton MRI receptacles will be the ones I will use for power distribution, assuming the GTX live up to their reviews, and I'm sure they will as Furutech has always come through with superior connectors.

On plating, when the manufacturer gets it right it can work out very well. WTB's platinum plating works great for RCA plugs, Furutech's rhodium plated copper connectors are also great. Rhodium can be balanced out with gold. I really don't like the idea of having my cable connectors corrode and have them degrade in performance over time. Sure, some folks will clean them but the fact is many will not, and most probably won't do it often enough. Corrosion can also get into the grain of the metal, penetrating into it. That can;t be cleaned. Now, I'd rather use unplated brass receptacles than nickle plated ones when choosing an economical solution, but unplated male power plugs go downhill pretty quick and if you have the cash for plated connectors I feel it's well worth it and makes for a much longer lasting connector.

[Triode Pete]

On plating, when the manufacturer gets it right it can work out very well. WTB's platinum plating works great for RCA plugs, Furutech's rhodium plated copper connectors are also great. Rhodium can be balanced out with gold. I really don't like the idea of having my cable connectors corrode and have them degrade in performance over time. Sure, some folks will clean them but the fact is many will not, and most probably won't do it often enough. Corrosion can also get into the grain of the metal, penetrating into it. That can;t be cleaned. Now, I'd rather use unplated brass receptacles than nickle plated ones when choosing an economical solution, but unplated male power plugs go downhill pretty quick and if you have the cash for plated connectors I feel it's well worth it and makes for a much longer lasting connector.

Plating always colors the sound in some fashion. Generally speaking, rhodium is a terrible electrical conductor and lends to a very bright sound. Gold plating tends to have a warmer sound, but always colored & inaccurate. However, Cardas is one of the only manufacturers IMO who gets rhodium plating correct. Furutech tries but the only product worth mentioning is their FI-50M series of connectors, crazy prized at $584 for a set of rhodium plated connectors with carbon-fiber bodies (used on the $10K Crystal Cable Absolute Dream power cable). Close but the Furutech FI-50M has slight coloration.

I will take a high copper content brass connector that has been properly cryogenically treated over any of the cheaper rhodium or platinum plated connectors. In my experience, very good brass improves dramatically and is the ideal candidate for cryogenic treatment. Pure good bare copper (with cryogenic treatment) is better as long as it's had a corrosion prevention treatment during manufacture such as acid washing or burnishing, etc. When done right, it does not corrode in audio environments and is far superior sonically.

My $0.02,
Pete