Cable strategies

[Werd]

Has anyone noticed how the digital cable (in RCA or Xlr) and the speaker cable sonic signatures are so interdependent with one another? These two cable positions pretty much dictate the entire sonic cable signature in signal cables imo. To the point where the speaker cable sonics are best heard using the same brand digital and vice versa.

I've notice tweaking cables is a lot easier if these two cable positions are brand matched or at least same type of design. Leaving open source to pre or pre to amp for further enhancement....

[DaveC]

Since you mention it, absolutely! 

The character of the wire you use in your cables comes through in different ways with different cables. When using different brands/types of cables, this can be complimentary, or it can clash and sound bad. It is a safer bet to use the same cables and sometimes you get great synergy that way, but it's not necessary to get good results.

What you noticed with the digital cable and the speaker cables also happens with interconnects and speaker cable to some extent depending on the system.

With my cables, I purposely use my OCC silver/gold alloy wire across all lines of cables (with the exception of power cables, but my litz wire synergizes well with the alloy wire) for this exact reason. It does include a s/pdif cable, ics and scs. It's not inexpensive, but the results of having all OCC silver/gold alloy cables is amazing.

[Nick B]

Werd and Dave, you guys have more experience re cables than I do. But I look at it this way. Although I have different IC's (Grover Huffman) and speaker cables (Straley), the next IC's and SC's I buy will very likely be from the same company. That keeps it simpler for me and IMO allows for a uniformity of character of the sound. Once that's dialed in, then I'll work on the digital. I'm fortunate that I now have an amp and dac that will allow me to do this

[DaveC]

One other comment... I hear a lot of people who are looking to fix or adjust the sound of their system with cables. Some want and like smooth, warm cables that add the same kind of tone to everything that passes through them. Some want exciting cables that accentuate leading edges make everything sound more detailed than it really is.

I don't think trying to make adjustments to your system with cables is going to be a satisfying long-term approach. The more neutral a cable can be, the more detail you hear in the music, and the more the music has it's own character rather than being a product of the system it's played on, the better. I know this invites the inevitable "well, what really is neutral?" question, and to answer that ahead of time, it's whatever adds the least coloration to the music and this has to be judged on a comparative and not absolute basis because we don't have a perfect reference.

In conclusion, I think we would be better off using the most neutral and accurate cables we can afford, if this makes other shortcomings audible it should be welcomed as an opportunity to improve our systems. We shouldn't try to mask our system's shortcomings with cables.

This isn't to say synergy isn't important, we just need to be careful of how we define the term. 

[Werd]

I don't really like using the same cable brand through out the system. I find it diminishes the ability to focus on a particular component position in the system. Using the same digital IC with speaker cable is an exception imo. No one needs to be locked down to this but it does help using the same type or brand cable in these 2 positions.

[sleepyguy24]

For me if you can keep anything constant in your system it will help focus on other components. Keeping cables, preamps, sources etc constant is something you don't have to worry about. I've learned this the hard way when I would make wholesale changes at once to a system because I didn't have patience or was lazy to do incremental changes if something went awry I was scratching my head as to where in the signal chain is the problem.

When possible I like to keep the same cables constant throughout the whole system from source to speaker cables. For peace of mind, and synergy.

I have though made changes to only digital coax cables and and speaker cables at different times and did notice differences in music.

With a digital coax change there was a slightly noticeable change to my system. I went from a McCormack Wonderlink J cable to a Black Cat Silver Star 75 cable using a Jolida Tube DAC.

With a speaker cable only change I did hear a difference as well but that may be attributable to the quality difference between both cables. I was going from Belden alarm wire with Monster banana plugs and audioquest spades to premium boutique cables.

[Nick B]

I've been in this hobby/addiction? for over 20 years, and for many of those years, was making the wrong decisions on how  to upgrade my system. It is through being on AN and AC for a number of years and reading many, many posts that I was able to start "dialing in" my system. After a period of time, I started getting a sense of which posters truly were experienced and who's advice/comments were worth noting. Now that I have an excellent amp and dac, the ability to discern differences is so much easier. IIRC, when I got Dave's cables, I auditioned the IC's separately and then his SC's. The combination of both together was an eye (ear)- opener. I enjoy audio a lot, but also don't want to audition tons of stuff over many, many hours and days. So auditioning the IC's and SC's together still makes the most sense to me. There are lots of cable manufacturers out there, on Agon and the web. Based on technical knowledge and good reviews by people whose judgment I now trust, the only 2 worth pursuing in my situation are Dave's and Pete's products. As to a digital cable, I haven't thought about that as much and will make a decision after the IC's and SC's in place.

[DaveC]

I have had many people comment on the IC/SC synergy with my cables, and while I think you can achieve great synergy mixing brands and types of cables as well, it is worth trying the same brand of cables because there is a very good chance it will work out really well.

I have used the same upocc copper litz wire as well as the silver/gold alloy in many types of cables so far and the character of the wire comes through in different ways in different cables. One example is the litz wire used in IC, SC and PCs, even in power cords the character of the wire is very audible and it contributes to the sound of the system in a similar way to the other cables, and since it is the same wire the sonic contributions work well together. And even with different wire manufactured by the same company, the manufacturing process imparts similar sonics as well, so there are similarities in all upocc conductors, whether it be copper, silver or silver/gold alloy.

[Werd]

I've been in this hobby/addiction? for over 20 years, and for many of those years, was making the wrong decisions on how  to upgrade my system. It is through being on AN and AC for a number of years and reading many, many posts that I was able to start "dialing in" my system. After a period of time, I started getting a sense of which posters truly were experienced and who's advice/comments were worth noting. Now that I have an excellent amp and dac, the ability to discern differences is so much easier. IIRC, when I got Dave's cables, I auditioned the IC's separately and then his SC's. The combination of both together was an eye (ear)- opener. I enjoy audio a lot, but also don't want to audition tons of stuff over many, many hours and days. So auditioning the IC's and SC's together still makes the most sense to me. There are lots of cable manufacturers out there, on Agon and the web. Based on technical knowledge and good reviews by people whose judgment I now trust, the only 2 worth pursuing in my situation are Dave's and Pete's products. As to a digital cable, I haven't thought about that as much and will make a decision after the IC's and SC's in place.

You just want to be careful not to drown out the digital cable. Its less of an issue with cabling as it is with component swapping. You want to hear the digital cable and/or hear the variation in digital cables. If you can't then there is a problem somewhere. It can happen if you over-run your entire cable fitting with the same brand including power cables.

I've never like using the same cabling through out but have noticed benefits with speaker and digital together. Together they seem to allow a better insight into digital cable with out drowning out the digital IC. Its only a inkling and not a theory in anyway.

[Nick B]

Not sure what you really mean by drowning out the digital cable. My goal is for the cabling to be neutral and revealing. If I were to lean toward one side, it would be on the warmer side rather than the lean, etched and analytical. I have lived with systems that have been bright and edgy and can't handle that anymore. My thinking is that if the IC's and SC's are right...and revealing, then that will allow me more easily to get the digital cable correct.
I've made mistakes in the past and have been stuck with the poor result until I could afford something better. That's why I especially appreciate companies that allow reasonable audition periods.
There are lots of great components out there. I'm very happy with the modded McCormack gear, so much so that I bought a DAC 1 and am having that modified. It's a very old dac with an old chip, but I trust Steve and Kris and have spoken with an individual who's quite experienced and who's judgment I really trust. If the level one mod works out, I'll have them do more. Same goes for the McCormack Micro Phono that I got from Agon a few months ago.
For me, it'll be fun to have an all McCormack system.

[DaveC]

I think Werd is saying that if the cabling has a particular sonic signature then using it throughout the system will impart too much of that flavor. Some people feel the same way about using all the same resistors or other passive components too and in theory I agree... in practice though, if you can find a very neutral and revealing cable or component then I like using more of it. A really good and neutral resistor like Mills would be fine to use a bunch of but if you fill your gear with a good carbon comp like AB instead of just using it for grid leak (for example) then the sonics of your gear will be dominated by your resistor choice. I go for as close to neutral as the price point will allow and I err on the warm side rather than harsh/etched so I feel like using a lot of my cables would be a great choice, but I may be a little biased there. 

[Nick B]

OK, I get that if that's what Werd was thinking. Philosophically, though, it seems to me that trying to fix too much of a sonic characteristic means the thing was designed right in the first place. I don't mind mixing and matching though if that's what I'll eventually have to do. Dave, it's actually all your fault since I liked the synergy of your IC's and SC's so much    

[Nick B]

OK, I get that if that's what Werd was thinking. Philosophically, though, it seems to me that trying to fix too much of a sonic characteristic means the thing wasn't designed right in the first place. I don't mind mixing and matching though if that's what I'll eventually have to do. Dave, it's actually all your fault since I liked the synergy of your IC's and SC's so much   

[DaveC]

Thanks Nick! That's also the reason I wanted to send both IC and SC for demo at the same time. One or the other may work great, but it is very common that using both is far better than one or the other.

Also, I should point out that not all cable companies use the same wire for all their cables... like my Duelund IC which has a considerably different sonic signature vs all my other cables and I would not expect the same synergy with it and my SCs. I have made a Duelund silver speaker cable for R&D purposes, still have it kicking around, but it's pricey and I really like my upocc silver and silver/gold alloy cables much better. The Duelund wire also contributes much more coloration vs upocc conductors, so I could definitely see using all-Duelund based cables as being too much or drowning out the contribution of other cables or components.

[Werd]

OK, I get that if that's what Werd was thinking. Philosophically, though, it seems to me that trying to fix too much of a sonic characteristic means the thing wasn't designed right in the first place. I don't mind mixing and matching though if that's what I'll eventually have to do. Dave, it's actually all your fault since I liked the synergy of your IC's and SC's so much   

The idea behind neutral is a bit of misnomer in audio for me. I am not interested in neutral to obtain (what might be) a truer studio recording.
Neutral for me is a device that doesn't try and play boss in my system.
The component that wants to decide what your entire system is going to sound like, and worse at the cost of drowning out every other cable, tweak or component out.

Cabling can suffer from amps that are like this. Old SST Bryston or Mcintosh solid state are bad for this. Including almost all HT receivers.

Once every component position can be heard and tweaked upon it makes system building far easier. Especially source tweaking. The only component that should really play boss imo. Hearing source tweaks allows you to assign what your source is doing sonically. Hearing tweaks in your preamps lets you hear your preamp and what it does (in the grand scheme of your soundstage).

Running the same brand of cabling can defeat that whole strategy since it can drown out the tweaks of each component. Making it hard to hear every piece individually.
Its only a strategy but it works for me. I still like hearing entire system cable looms. But for me I would rather go with putting a lil bit a cable brand here. And a lil bit of different brand over there. Mix and match for maximum satisfaction.