AudioNervosa

Systemic Development => Bipolar System Disorders => Topic started by: steve on October 24, 2019, 09:41:02 PM

Title: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: steve on October 24, 2019, 09:41:02 PM
I just made, maybe, my last tweak. I added two turns to an inductor on my speaker crossover.
A friend, with multiple systems, came over, who owns Harbeth, LS3/5A speakers, flat out told me never to make another tweak again.

Soooooo, I thought I would sneak in another tweak, by adding one more turn to the inductor. No go. Had to remove the one more turn.

But honestly, it looks like the journey with my system is over except for speaker wire, which is prohibitively expensive. I am not sure I need it though.

The Modi 2 has been successfully modified.
My test Phono stage is sounding superb. (It is still hay wired together though.)
The 11A has been finished for some years.
My 20 watt PPT (push pull triode) mono amp design has been finished for some time.
Interconnects have been finished for some years.
Speaker wire could be better, maybe using all 6N pure solid 18 gauge wire.
Speakers are finished for use in this room. (Except for covering/painting)
Inner tube below 11A, Test Phono Stage, Modified CD player.

40 years and finally finished. Been enjoying the music so much these past couple of weeks.

As you go thru this string, another tweak or so occurs. Here is a string I started demonstrating the lack of
artificial flavoring/absence of sonic signature.

https://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=6954.0

Cheers

steve
Title: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: Guy 13 on October 24, 2019, 10:18:47 PM
Hi Steve,
are you 100% sure you wont tweak again your system ?
Can you resist the temptation of modifying something ?
Only time will tell.

Guy 13
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: S Clark on October 24, 2019, 11:56:01 PM
Seriously? You could discern a difference from 2 turns on an inductor? What is that, like 1uH? 
I'm not questioning, just jealous.  That's in the realm of perfect pitch. :shock:
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: Nick B on October 25, 2019, 08:38:25 AM
Congratulations, steve. I’ve always admired your attention to detail and your descriptions of your testing methodology. Wish I could hear your system.  :thumb:
Nick
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: Folsom on October 25, 2019, 10:17:58 AM
Maybe a YouTube video?
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on October 26, 2019, 06:29:47 PM
Guy13, I think so as I have not had any inclination to make another tweak to the digital source system, since I attempted the addition of one more turn on the speaker inductor. I probably should have stated that I still need to make it look much better, but that was not my point.

I did tweak the interconnect between the TT to phono stage IC by adding a shield. Not great looking, but pretty much eliminated any 60hz hum.

Scott, with the inductor I am using, the two turns added approximately 20 micro henries to the inductance. Sonic change does not really surprise me as I have altered a resistor parallel with my full range driver (FRD) by a millionth of an ohm and music lovers notice the sonic difference. It is not the spl change, but the frequency response change that is perceived. +/- 0,1db 20 - 20khz spec is almost meaningless.

I have another resistor in series with the FRD and I also alter its resistance by a millionth of an ohm, which changes the FRD to woofer spl "matching", if I can use that term.

Thanks for the compliment Nick. I try to be as accurate as possible.

Hi Jeremy. I have no idea of how to do YouTube, nor mics, nor camera etc. I have attached a photo of my test system in the listening room. It does not look pretty at all. That is my fault. I am somewhat scared to move the speakers when putting on a covering. Last time Dan was here, he moved the speakers about 1/16".

A few comments on the photo.
The small capacitors in front of the monoblocks are switchable, for different input/output tube combinations.
Next, the speaker drivers have been modified.
The test modified Modi 2 DAC is inside the aluminum chassis on the floor, to house polypropes.
The gold colored chassis is the test phono stage with 36db of gain. I wish it was more, will tinker later, maybe.
Power conditioning has been incorporated inside each component.

Here is a selection that will test one's system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaugLriyEbs

Cheers
steve



Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: S Clark on October 26, 2019, 07:36:39 PM

Scott, with the inductor I am using, the two turns added approximately 20 micro henries to the inductance. Sonic change does not really surprise me as I have altered a resistor parallel with my full range driver (FRD) by a millionth of an ohm and music lovers notice the sonic difference. It is not the spl change, but the frequency response change that is perceived. +/- 0,1db 20 - 20khz spec is almost meaningless.

I have another resistor in series with the FRD and I also alter its resistance by a millionth of an ohm, which changes the FRD to woofer spl "matching", if I can use that term.

Interesting.  One year I had my physics students wind their own inductors, and we didn't see that kind of sensitivity.  But I never tried it again...winding inductors from scratch is a royal PITA.
And how in the world do you vary a resister by .000 000 1 ohm?  I've heard differences in 1/2 ohm, but  1/1000000? I'm always amazed by what you guys with good ears can hear.
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on October 26, 2019, 10:17:59 PM

Scott, with the inductor I am using, the two turns added approximately 20 micro henries to the inductance. Sonic change does not really surprise me as I have altered a resistor parallel with my full range driver (FRD) by a millionth of an ohm and music lovers notice the sonic difference. It is not the spl change, but the frequency response change that is perceived. +/- 0,1db 20 - 20khz spec is almost meaningless.

I have another resistor in series with the FRD and I also alter its resistance by a millionth of an ohm, which changes the FRD to woofer spl "matching", if I can use that term.

Interesting.  One year I had my physics students wind their own inductors, and we didn't see that kind of sensitivity.  But I never tried it again...winding inductors from scratch is a royal PITA.
And how in the world do you vary a resister by .000 000 1 ohm?  I've heard differences in 1/2 ohm, but  1/1000000? I'm always amazed by what you guys with good ears can hear.

Hi Scott,

The inductor is iron core, rated 600 watts if memory serves me correctly, so not as many turns. (The amp only puts out 20 watts or so.)

For the second question, an example. Say we have a 20 ohm resistor "A" shown in schematic below. I used a similar circuit as shown below. Adjusting "F" pot (we measure across resistor "E"), we can then calculate the total resistance change of resistor "A". I did not actually calculate this circuit, I used different values, but it does show how it can be done.

Your third question, I think, has to do with how much masking does the system, each component create. When each component is designed/listening tested for accuracy (does the output sound like the input signal), it is my opinion that true openness occurs. It is quite easy to perceive minute changes in tonal balance, assuming no masking is occurring. However, when masking occurs, in varying degrees, tonal balance changes are not as noticeable. +/- 0,1db means a small change in frequency response correlating to ~54db down, varying over octaves. Of course venue also influences our perceptions

Another aspect is that frequency response (FR) changes, usually toward frequency extremes, the harmonic structure changes. The higher the harmonic number, the easier it is to perceive the change (RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook, 1960).

Late now, cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on October 27, 2019, 04:59:00 PM
I see we have an optical illusion with the right speaker appearing to be severely slanted. However, that is not the case, the speakers are straight up and down.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: mresseguie on October 27, 2019, 08:57:40 PM
Steve,

Several of the audiophiles I know and hang out with in Taiwan are engineers (electrical, mechanical). One of the guys is the husband of a friend of my wife. His audio room looks quite a lot like yours. I call his room 'the mad scientist room'.  :rofl:
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: rollo on October 29, 2019, 06:54:32 AM
  Wishful thinking Steve.  :)


charles
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: tmazz on October 29, 2019, 02:50:20 PM
Building a stereo system is like arguing with your wife, it's never over...... unless she says it's over.  :rofl:
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on November 02, 2019, 07:24:51 PM
I just performed one more experiment, that involving my speaker "cables" that I thought could be improved upon. I installed one 6N copper wire across both the right and left speaker wires. That not only increased the wires from 12 on each leg to 13, but also added a 6N pure wire.

I had to tweak my speaker controls just slightly, but a slight improvement in believability was perceived. There was just a smidgen of confusion in the lower piano range that was corrected. Checking multiple pianos pieces, it just sounds live up and down the scale. I am right at the apex of believability.

Next, Dan, an audiophile/music lover from Mt. Pulaski, will be auditioning, hopefully next tuesday.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on November 14, 2019, 09:21:47 PM
Dan came over the other night, he is really good at speaker placement etc. Disconnected the 6N wire; we played some of the same and new selections while he adjusted, later I tweaked the speaker positions less than a 0,5 pen's thin line. Over the past couple of days, sounds just slightly better still, mainly lower end cleaner kick drum, yet still fleshy mids. I thought I was finished, but so close; this was a swing type super minute adjustment though.

Setting the temperature to 72 degrees, as per standard from what review mags used to do. Was at 70.

cheers
steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on February 05, 2020, 03:25:26 PM
An update on my personal lab stereo system.

I modified the Modi 2 some months ago, I don't even consider purchasing any other, regardless of cost. I am also
willing to upgrade another's.

The reference monoblocks were obtained by special proprietary listening tests to make sure the amps do not alter the sonics of the input. (This same procedure was performed with my 10A and perfect 11A line preamplifiers when I was still active. I am retired now.)

I am working with JJ KT-88s and JJ 6dj8/Ecc88 tubes. The sound is so natural that I don't even think of changing to
NOS tubes. I know what others say concerning newly manufactured tubes. Forget their experiences.
And forget those "comparison capacitor" articles.

I am hoping this 40+ year experiment will help others find a tube combo, reasonably priced, that can be made to sound awesome in their components, along with some tweaking. Something worth trying that will not break the bank.

cheers
steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: Nick B on February 05, 2020, 11:33:46 PM
An update on my personal stereo system.

Got the Modi 2 modified some months ago, to the point that I can upgrade it if one wishes. It is indeed world class.

My monoblocks, triode connected, are using Winged C KT-88s with Amperex orange, A frame, PQ 6dj8/Ecc88 made in Holland input/driver tube as reference. (Good luck finding Winged C KT-88s).

As such, I am working with different combinations of currently manufactured tubes to obtain the best quality sound, closest to my reference tubes, with prices people can afford.

This requires that I use two switches so I can find a new manufactured tube combination that "sounds" closest to my reference. The reference was obtain by special proprietary listening tests to make sure the amps do not alter the sonics of the input. (This same procedure was performed with my 10A and perfect 11A line preamplifiers when I was still active. I am retired now.)

Right now I am working with SED KT-88s and JJ 6dj8/Ecc88 tubes. Will report later on findings.

I am hoping this experiment will help others find a tube combo, reasonably priced, that can be made to sound awesome in their components, with some tweaking. Something worth trying that will not break the bank.

cheers
steve

Hi Steve,
Interesting you should mention the Modi 2 made by Schiit. A few years back, Jeff from Sonic Craft was quite enthusiastic on a Schiit dac mod, although I cant recall the model. I’m curious as to what was done to yours and the cost.
Nick
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on February 06, 2020, 05:01:11 PM
An update on my personal stereo system.

Got the Modi 2 modified some months ago, to the point that I can upgrade it if one wishes. It is indeed world class.

My monoblocks, triode connected, are using Winged C KT-88s with Amperex orange, A frame, PQ 6dj8/Ecc88 made in Holland input/driver tube as reference. (Good luck finding Winged C KT-88s).

As such, I am working with different combinations of currently manufactured tubes to obtain the best quality sound, closest to my reference tubes, with prices people can afford.

This requires that I use two switches so I can find a new manufactured tube combination that "sounds" closest to my reference. The reference was obtain by special proprietary listening tests to make sure the amps do not alter the sonics of the input. (This same procedure was performed with my 10A and perfect 11A line preamplifiers when I was still active. I am retired now.)

Right now I am working with SED KT-88s and JJ 6dj8/Ecc88 tubes. Will report later on findings.

I am hoping this experiment will help others find a tube combo, reasonably priced, that can be made to sound awesome in their components, with some tweaking. Something worth trying that will not break the bank.

cheers
steve

Hi Steve,
Interesting you should mention the Modi 2 made by Schiit. A few years back, Jeff from Sonic Craft was quite enthusiastic on a Schiit dac mod, although I cant recall the model. I’m curious as to what was done to yours and the cost.
Nick

Thanks for the inquiy. The sound is so open (of course the speakers are totally gone), superlatives galore. I am not even interested in auditioning another expensive dac/player etc.

The mod included disassembly, working with the tiny pc board holes (working in static type conditions), out boarding output capacitors to Mundorf Supremes that customer purchased himself. Vampire all copper jacks, 6n pure copper wire from Jenalabs. Mount, fasten parts. ~2.5 hours labour since I have it down.


I am figuring ~$650.00 plus shipping/handling without the larger chassis. The customer would point me to the part number and I would order their chassis, or other part selection. Of course, I cannot guarantee the sound quality if they wish custom capacitors.

The photo below uses an old 17" x 10" x 3.5" aluminum chassis, used parts so I can test and easily make modifications. No hole drilled for USB cable. I assume one would want a much smaller chassis, although 2 1/2" minimum height chassis would be needed. Width and Length would be dependent upon layout. For example, the output capacitors could be run directly back from the dac, so the length could be half or less.

Cheers
steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: Nick B on February 06, 2020, 06:50:57 PM
An update on my personal stereo system.

Got the Modi 2 modified some months ago, to the point that I can upgrade it if one wishes. It is indeed world class.

My monoblocks, triode connected, are using Winged C KT-88s with Amperex orange, A frame, PQ 6dj8/Ecc88 made in Holland input/driver tube as reference. (Good luck finding Winged C KT-88s).

As such, I am working with different combinations of currently manufactured tubes to obtain the best quality sound, closest to my reference tubes, with prices people can afford.

This requires that I use two switches so I can find a new manufactured tube combination that "sounds" closest to my reference. The reference was obtain by special proprietary listening tests to make sure the amps do not alter the sonics of the input. (This same procedure was performed with my 10A and perfect 11A line preamplifiers when I was still active. I am retired now.)

Right now I am working with SED KT-88s and JJ 6dj8/Ecc88 tubes. Will report later on findings.

I am hoping this experiment will help others find a tube combo, reasonably priced, that can be made to sound awesome in their components, with some tweaking. Something worth trying that will not break the bank.

cheers
steve

Hi Steve,
Interesting you should mention the Modi 2 made by Schiit. A few years back, Jeff from Sonic Craft was quite enthusiastic on a Schiit dac mod, although I cant recall the model. I’m curious as to what was done to yours and the cost.
Nick

Thanks for the inquiy. The sound is so open (of course the speakers are totally gone), superlatives galore. I am not even interested in auditioning another expensive dac/player etc.

The mod included disassembly, working with the tiny pc board holes (working in static type conditions), changing, out boarding output capacitors to Mundorf Supremes, poly a portion of the power supply (analog), Vampire all copper jacks, 6n pure copper wire from Jenalabs. Mount, fasten parts. ~2.5 hours labour since I have it down.


I am figuring ~$599.00 plus shipping/handling without the larger chassis. The customer would point me to the part number and I would order their chassis, or other part selection. Of course, I cannot guarantee the sound quality if they wish custom capacitors.

The photo below uses an old 17" x 10" x 3.5" aluminum chassis, used parts so I can test and easily make modifications. No hole drilled for USB cable. I assume one would want a much smaller chassis, although 2 1/2" minimum height chassis would be needed. Width and Length would be dependent upon layout. For example, the output capacitors could be run directly back from the dac, so the length could be half or less.

Cheers
steve

Thanks for that info, Steve. That’s a very nice price, especially because you think so highly of the sound. I was just on the Schiit website and wasn’t aware that they had so many products. I now recall that Jeff at Sonic Craft was so enthused over the modded Bifrost. My Border Patrol SE dac resolves beautifully, but I’d be quite curious how it compares to your Modi 2.
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on February 07, 2020, 01:19:50 PM
An update on my personal stereo system.

Got the Modi 2 modified some months ago, to the point that I can upgrade it if one wishes. It is indeed world class.

My monoblocks, triode connected, are using Winged C KT-88s with Amperex orange, A frame, PQ 6dj8/Ecc88 made in Holland input/driver tube as reference. (Good luck finding Winged C KT-88s).

As such, I am working with different combinations of currently manufactured tubes to obtain the best quality sound, closest to my reference tubes, with prices people can afford.

This requires that I use two switches so I can find a new manufactured tube combination that "sounds" closest to my reference. The reference was obtain by special proprietary listening tests to make sure the amps do not alter the sonics of the input. (This same procedure was performed with my 10A and perfect 11A line preamplifiers when I was still active. I am retired now.)

Right now I am working with SED KT-88s and JJ 6dj8/Ecc88 tubes. Will report later on findings.

I am hoping this experiment will help others find a tube combo, reasonably priced, that can be made to sound awesome in their components, with some tweaking. Something worth trying that will not break the bank.

cheers
steve

Hi Steve,
Interesting you should mention the Modi 2 made by Schiit. A few years back, Jeff from Sonic Craft was quite enthusiastic on a Schiit dac mod, although I cant recall the model. I’m curious as to what was done to yours and the cost.
Nick

Thanks for the inquiy. The sound is so open (of course the speakers are totally gone), superlatives galore. I am not even interested in auditioning another expensive dac/player etc.

The mod included disassembly, working with the tiny pc board holes (working in static type conditions), out boarding output capacitors to Mundorf Supremes since customer purchased them, and since I am not using mine, etc.. Vampire all copper jacks, 6n pure copper wire from Jenalabs. Mount, fasten parts. ~2.5 hours labour since I have it down.


I am figuring ~$650.00 plus shipping/handling without the larger chassis. The customer would point me to the part number and I would order their chassis, or other part selection. Of course, I cannot guarantee the sound quality if they wish custom capacitors like my customer did.

The photo below uses an old 17" x 10" x 3.5" aluminum chassis, used parts so I can test and easily make modifications. No hole drilled for USB cable. I assume one would want a much smaller chassis, although 2 1/2" minimum height chassis would be needed. Width and Length would be dependent upon layout. For example, the output capacitors could be run directly back from the dac, so the length could be half or less.

Cheers
steve

Thanks for that info, Steve. That’s a very nice price, especially because you think so highly of the sound. I was just on the Schiit website and wasn’t aware that they had so many products. I now recall that Jeff at Sonic Craft was so enthused over the modded Bifrost. My Border Patrol SE dac resolves beautifully, but I’d be quite curious how it compares to your Modi 2.

I would not mind auditioning yours first if that is ok. I want to see just how close they compare in absolute terms.

Actually, I am using the best coupling cap on the planet (cap went extinct some years ago), but the Mundorf Supreme is a real close second. I would also have to rearrange the caps and button mine down before shipping.

cheers
steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: Nick B on February 07, 2020, 08:15:15 PM
An update on my personal stereo system.

Got the Modi 2 modified some months ago, to the point that I can upgrade it if one wishes. It is indeed world class.

My monoblocks, triode connected, are using Winged C KT-88s with Amperex orange, A frame, PQ 6dj8/Ecc88 made in Holland input/driver tube as reference. (Good luck finding Winged C KT-88s).

As such, I am working with different combinations of currently manufactured tubes to obtain the best quality sound, closest to my reference tubes, with prices people can afford.

This requires that I use two switches so I can find a new manufactured tube combination that "sounds" closest to my reference. The reference was obtain by special proprietary listening tests to make sure the amps do not alter the sonics of the input. (This same procedure was performed with my 10A and perfect 11A line preamplifiers when I was still active. I am retired now.)

Right now I am working with SED KT-88s and JJ 6dj8/Ecc88 tubes. Will report later on findings.

I am hoping this experiment will help others find a tube combo, reasonably priced, that can be made to sound awesome in their components, with some tweaking. Something worth trying that will not break the bank.

cheers
steve

Hi Steve,
Interesting you should mention the Modi 2 made by Schiit. A few years back, Jeff from Sonic Craft was quite enthusiastic on a Schiit dac mod, although I cant recall the model. I’m curious as to what was done to yours and the cost.
Nick

Thanks for the inquiy. The sound is so open (of course the speakers are totally gone), superlatives galore. I am not even interested in auditioning another expensive dac/player etc.

The mod included disassembly, working with the tiny pc board holes (working in static type conditions), changing, out boarding output capacitors to Mundorf Supremes, poly a portion of the power supply (analog), Vampire all copper jacks, 6n pure copper wire from Jenalabs. Mount, fasten parts. ~2.5 hours labour since I have it down.


I am figuring ~$599.00 plus shipping/handling without the larger chassis. The customer would point me to the part number and I would order their chassis, or other part selection. Of course, I cannot guarantee the sound quality if they wish custom capacitors.

The photo below uses an old 17" x 10" x 3.5" aluminum chassis, used parts so I can test and easily make modifications. No hole drilled for USB cable. I assume one would want a much smaller chassis, although 2 1/2" minimum height chassis would be needed. Width and Length would be dependent upon layout. For example, the output capacitors could be run directly back from the dac, so the length could be half or less.

Cheers
steve

Thanks for that info, Steve. That’s a very nice price, especially because you think so highly of the sound. I was just on the Schiit website and wasn’t aware that they had so many products. I now recall that Jeff at Sonic Craft was so enthused over the modded Bifrost. My Border Patrol SE dac resolves beautifully, but I’d be quite curious how it compares to your Modi 2.

I would not mind auditioning yours first if that is ok. I want to see just how close they compare in absolute terms.

Actually, I am using the best coupling cap on the planet (cap went extinct some years ago), but the Mundorf Supreme is a real close second. I would also have to rearrange the caps and button mine down before shipping.

cheers
steve

Steve,
I just sent you a PM. As I’ve heard of you since Marty DeWulf was writing Bound for Sound many years ago, I’d very much enjoy your thoughts. Marty raved about your 11A preamp.
Nick
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on February 08, 2020, 08:52:33 PM
An update on my personal stereo system.

Got the Modi 2 modified some months ago, to the point that I can upgrade it if one wishes. It is indeed world class.

My monoblocks, triode connected, are using Winged C KT-88s with Amperex orange, A frame, PQ 6dj8/Ecc88 made in Holland input/driver tube as reference. (Good luck finding Winged C KT-88s).

As such, I am working with different combinations of currently manufactured tubes to obtain the best quality sound, closest to my reference tubes, with prices people can afford.

This requires that I use two switches so I can find a new manufactured tube combination that "sounds" closest to my reference. The reference was obtain by special proprietary listening tests to make sure the amps do not alter the sonics of the input. (This same procedure was performed with my 10A and perfect 11A line preamplifiers when I was still active. I am retired now.)

Right now I am working with SED KT-88s and JJ 6dj8/Ecc88 tubes. Will report later on findings.

I am hoping this experiment will help others find a tube combo, reasonably priced, that can be made to sound awesome in their components, with some tweaking. Something worth trying that will not break the bank.

cheers
steve

Hi Steve,
Interesting you should mention the Modi 2 made by Schiit. A few years back, Jeff from Sonic Craft was quite enthusiastic on a Schiit dac mod, although I cant recall the model. I’m curious as to what was done to yours and the cost.
Nick

Thanks for the inquiy. The sound is so open (of course the speakers are totally gone), superlatives galore. I am not even interested in auditioning another expensive dac/player etc.

The mod included disassembly, working with the tiny pc board holes (working in static type conditions), changing, out boarding output capacitors to Mundorf Supremes, poly a portion of the power supply (analog), Vampire all copper jacks, 6n pure copper wire from Jenalabs. Mount, fasten parts. ~2.5 hours labour since I have it down.


I am figuring ~$599.00 plus shipping/handling without the larger chassis. The customer would point me to the part number and I would order their chassis, or other part selection. Of course, I cannot guarantee the sound quality if they wish custom capacitors.

The photo below uses an old 17" x 10" x 3.5" aluminum chassis, used parts so I can test and easily make modifications. No hole drilled for USB cable. I assume one would want a much smaller chassis, although 2 1/2" minimum height chassis would be needed. Width and Length would be dependent upon layout. For example, the output capacitors could be run directly back from the dac, so the length could be half or less.

Cheers
steve

Thanks for that info, Steve. That’s a very nice price, especially because you think so highly of the sound. I was just on the Schiit website and wasn’t aware that they had so many products. I now recall that Jeff at Sonic Craft was so enthused over the modded Bifrost. My Border Patrol SE dac resolves beautifully, but I’d be quite curious how it compares to your Modi 2.

I would not mind auditioning yours first if that is ok. I want to see just how close they compare in absolute terms.

Actually, I am using the best coupling cap on the planet (cap went extinct some years ago), but the Mundorf Supreme is a real close second. I would also have to rearrange the caps and button mine down before shipping.

cheers
steve

Steve,
I just sent you a PM. As I’ve heard of you since Marty DeWulf was writing Bound for Sound many years ago, I’d very much enjoy your thoughts. Marty raved about your 11A preamp.
Nick

Thank you Nick. Sent pm with address. I will take care and will post my thoughts. Yes, both Martin DeWulf and Rich Weiner from Bound for Sound purchased an 11A for each of their reference systems.

The 10A line preamp was one of only three that made the "Exceptional Merit" list of BFS.

Cheers and great week.
steve

ps. BFS did not accept any advertising.
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: jimbones on February 20, 2020, 09:50:03 AM
ha ha he said over ha ha  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on February 24, 2020, 02:18:37 PM
ha ha he said over ha ha  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Well, I did do one thing this past week. I bypassed my speaker xover  capacitor with a 190pf capacitor.

Secondly, I do need to make my speakers more attractive.

cheers   :D
steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on April 15, 2020, 09:55:20 PM
ha ha he said over ha ha  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Well, I did do one thing this past week. I bypassed my speaker xover  capacitor with a 190pf capacitor.

Secondly, I do need to make my speakers more attractive.

cheers   :D
steve

I am eating crow. I adjusted the 190pf cap to 150pf polystyrene capacitor shunted across a 100uf
polypropylene capacitor. 

I also added one 18 gauge solid wire to the ten 18 gauge solid wires to the "red" speaker lead, while the black speaker lead still uses ten 18 gauge wires. (Coloring the speaker leads makes the explanation simpler to me.) This tiny adjustment is similar to my 1 millionth ohm pot adjustment, and adjusting speaker toe in of 0,5mm or less.

Although each of the three super fine adjustments affects the sonics differently, each also demonstrates the sensitivity of the audio system.

We will see how this adjustment works over time. 

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: jimbones on April 16, 2020, 05:34:44 AM
I don't see how a 190pf cap could materially affect the SQ of the crossover. I've been designing and building for years and my experience has been that generally you need a cap of significant percentage to improve the SQ. I have tried using a 0.22uf cap in parallel with a 7 uf cap and didn't really notice. Some publications say it needs to approach 50% of the total value.
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on April 18, 2020, 10:35:30 PM
I don't see how a 190pf cap could materially affect the SQ of the crossover. I've been designing and building for years and my experience has been that generally you need a cap of significant percentage to improve the SQ. I have tried using a 0.22uf cap in parallel with a 7 uf cap and didn't really notice. Some publications say it needs to approach 50% of the total value.

There are several reasons. Also those "rules of thumb" one often sees on forums are almost always inaccurate.

1. The venue might be, maybe one. No obvious echos.

2. The best, most accurate/natural sounding capacitors have been extinct for some years due to improper "testing" and "comparisons", individual and article capacitor comparisons alike, and then posting their results on audio forums. So what you have are 2nd rate caps these days.

3. Not the best designs, which includes values, ratings, biasing etc. A few equations won't design a
preamplifier or amplifier. It takes a whole lot more than that.

4. No one has developed or seems to use any specialized listening tests to determine if their resultant product is actually accurate across the audio frequency range. Claims of sounding good, "to die for" 
really means little,,, and compared to what.

That 150pf bypass cap affects the ultrasonic frequencies, thus rise time (attack time). The ultra sonic response affects everything down to the bass in a top notch system when masking is minimal to non existent.

By the way, the crossover capacitor is over 530,000 times larger than the 150pf cap. That information tells us how sensitive my speakers are, the lack of masking is incredible. Another way of putting it, there is virtually no sonic signature.

There are several changes that we can correlate.

A. Rotating my test speakers by 0,5mm is perceptible, tonal balance, sound stage etc.

B. One millionth of an ohm resistance change with a variable speaker control, tonal balance perception, sound stage etc.

C. the number of 5 foot speaker wires in parallel per speaker leg. My last adjustment was 10 parallel wires in one leg and 9 parallel wires in the other leg.

D. ~100pf capacitor in parallel with ~100uf capacitor. I am using ~ values due to proprietary reasons.

Update, after some tweaking with an inductor (about 1" more wire was added to a turn). Will continue to test over the
entire audio band.

The result in my lab setting is a system with virtually no sonic signature, and total natural accuracy to the source.
The remaining limitation is the recording due to inferior electronics.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on May 11, 2020, 03:01:22 PM
Well, a customer purchased and sent me a Supra usb cable as a present, and I am testing it.
It made a difference and is a superior usb cable, more live sounding than the double shielded gold plated
plug cable I was using.

The realism of the instruments and voices, the transparency is mind blowing.

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on August 14, 2020, 05:25:18 PM
Well, a customer purchased and sent me a Supra usb cable as a present, and I am testing it.
It made a difference and is a superior usb cable, more live sounding than the double shielded gold plated
plug cable I was using.

The realism of the instruments and voices, the transparency is mind blowing.

steve

I did not know if I could do it, but I have improved my super upgraded Modi 2 by using multiple caps in parallel in certain areas. The highs are cleaner, the cymbals are a little more whispy, light, airy, better clarity and attack times. The upgrade further separated my world class Modi 2 from what I previously reviewed it against.

cheers
steve

Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: rollo on August 21, 2020, 01:50:44 PM
  Done ?? Never done. With your knowledge and building talent you never will be done.  Just saying. There is always that variable that we want to try. Modding inexpensive gear is fun sometimes with good results sometimes not . Hence the chase. Have fun.

charles
 
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: Barry (NJ) on August 22, 2020, 06:27:56 AM
See my sig line ;)
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on August 23, 2020, 09:57:43 AM
See my sig line ;)

I had to do a double take read. At first I thought you meant neurotic. But I do visit Ed's once a week.



Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: Barry (NJ) on August 24, 2020, 01:02:19 PM
LOL!
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on August 24, 2020, 09:58:50 PM
  Done ?? Never done. With your knowledge and building talent you never will be done.  Just saying. There is always that variable that we want to try. Modding inexpensive gear is fun sometimes with good results sometimes not . Hence the chase. Have fun.

charles
 

Upgrading the dac was fun and now really really accurate. Even used 6 inch 6n all copper wires. Can't do much more with the room.
The 11A is perfect; monoblock triode amps, ics are finished, except looks.

I suppose eventually better drivers for the test speakers and some solid 6n speaker wires? Problems are the cost and the
limited frequency range of the best cone materials. I like two way designs, obviously modded the full range driver. Time to
fully enjoy the music.

cheers
steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: Nick B on August 25, 2020, 12:28:13 AM
  Done ?? Never done. With your knowledge and building talent you never will be done.  Just saying. There is always that variable that we want to try. Modding inexpensive gear is fun sometimes with good results sometimes not . Hence the chase. Have fun.

charles
 

Upgrading the dac was fun and now really really accurate. Even used 6 inch 6n all copper wires. Can't do much more with the room.
The 11A is perfect; monoblock triode amps, ics are finished, except looks.

I suppose eventually better drivers for the test speakers and some solid 6n speaker wires? Problems are the cost and the
limited frequency range of the best cone materials. I like two way designs, obviously modded the full range driver. Time to
fully enjoy the music.

cheers
steve

Steve,
Time indeed to fully enjoy the music. Congratulations on the result  :thumb: I’m very close to having things dialed in, just awaiting a digital coax. It’s amazing what adding some Jupiter caps and Amperex 7308s can do. I’m a fan of 2 ways. Thank goodness for speakers that sound great and that I can easily handle.
Nick
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on August 25, 2020, 01:54:14 PM
i'm a fan of 2-ways, as well.  if crossed over to subwoofers!   :mrgreen:

re: drivers, you should check out accuton.  expensive?  yes.  but quite efficient, and good frequency range - if you're willing to cross over the woofers at 100hz or so, to subwoofers.  israel blume uses an accuton woofer from 100hz-4khz, crossed to an accuton tweeter; the woofer can be crossed as high as 6khz, but going lower allows better driver overlap, while still allowing the accuton woofer to cover the majority of musical info.  this set-up is in his most expensive offerings, which have gotten critical praise from most everyone.  while i've never heard them, i owned a pair of his less-expensive offerings, (the coincident victory's), and i can say w/o reservation that he knows how to design speakers...

doug s.
Upgrading the dac was fun and now really really accurate. Even used 6 inch 6n all copper wires. Can't do much more with the room.
The 11A is perfect; monoblock triode amps, ics are finished, except looks.

I suppose eventually better drivers for the test speakers and some solid 6n speaker wires? Problems are the cost and the
limited frequency range of the best cone materials. I like two way designs, obviously modded the full range driver. Time to
fully enjoy the music.

cheers
steve

Hi Doug,

Thanks, but some years ago I decided to exit the midrange crossover frequencies, where the ear is most sensitive, and crossover quite low, in my case around 170hz. By doing so, I don't have the doppler effect while having the advantage of one driver from
low mids to 20khz.

The main problem I am having now is that the typical pots are so touchy and change resistance due to play in the control shaft.
So it looks like 10 or 15 turn pots are in order.

Cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: Nick B on August 25, 2020, 04:25:45 PM
Doug,
You did say expensive, but these prices surprised me a bit  :shock:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/accuton/

I have heard of Coincident, but Israel Blume’s name wasn’t familiar to me. An interesting read for me.
http://coincidentspeaker.com/about.htm
Nick

i'm a fan of 2-ways, as well.  if crossed over to subwoofers!   :mrgreen:

re: drivers, you should check out accuton.  expensive?  yes.  but quite efficient, and good frequency range - if you're willing to cross over the woofers at 100hz or so, to subwoofers.  israel blume uses an accuton woofer from 100hz-4khz, crossed to an accuton tweeter; the woofer can be crossed as high as 6khz, but going lower allows better driver overlap, while still allowing the accuton woofer to cover the majority of musical info.  this set-up is in his most expensive offerings, which have gotten critical praise from most everyone.  while i've never heard them, i owned a pair of his less-expensive offerings, (the coincident victory's), and i can say w/o reservation that he knows how to design speakers...

doug s.
Upgrading the dac was fun and now really really accurate. Even used 6 inch 6n all copper wires. Can't do much more with the room.
The 11A is perfect; monoblock triode amps, ics are finished, except looks.

I suppose eventually better drivers for the test speakers and some solid 6n speaker wires? Problems are the cost and the
limited frequency range of the best cone materials. I like two way designs, obviously modded the full range driver. Time to
fully enjoy the music.

cheers
steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on August 25, 2020, 05:41:19 PM
Doug,
You did say expensive, but these prices surprised me a bit  :shock:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/accuton/

I have heard of Coincident, but Israel Blume’s name wasn’t familiar to me. An interesting read for me.
http://coincidentspeaker.com/about.htm
Nick

i'm a fan of 2-ways, as well.  if crossed over to subwoofers!   :mrgreen:

re: drivers, you should check out accuton.  expensive?  yes.  but quite efficient, and good frequency range - if you're willing to cross over the woofers at 100hz or so, to subwoofers.  israel blume uses an accuton woofer from 100hz-4khz, crossed to an accuton tweeter; the woofer can be crossed as high as 6khz, but going lower allows better driver overlap, while still allowing the accuton woofer to cover the majority of musical info.  this set-up is in his most expensive offerings, which have gotten critical praise from most everyone.  while i've never heard them, i owned a pair of his less-expensive offerings, (the coincident victory's), and i can say w/o reservation that he knows how to design speakers...

doug s.
Upgrading the dac was fun and now really really accurate. Even used 6 inch 6n all copper wires. Can't do much more with the room.
The 11A is perfect; monoblock triode amps, ics are finished, except looks.

I suppose eventually better drivers for the test speakers and some solid 6n speaker wires? Problems are the cost and the
limited frequency range of the best cone materials. I like two way designs, obviously modded the full range driver. Time to
fully enjoy the music.

cheers
steve

No problem Nick. Just zip out to your money tree.   :-P


----------

Seriously, I hate to be a downer to anyone, but I checked out some of the midrange and tweeter FR plots and am not a fan
in my two way designs. I doubt I would use them in a three way design either.

Just my opinion.

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: toobluvr on August 26, 2020, 12:06:27 PM
.........  while i've never heard them, i owned a pair of his less-expensive offerings, (the coincident victory's), and i can say w/o reservation that he knows how to design speakers...

doug s.

[/quote]

I concur.

Over the years I've owned several pair of Coincident speakers:  Conquest, Visionary Reference, Super Eclipse, Digital Master.
All excellent.
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on August 26, 2020, 04:49:54 PM
hi steve,

it was my understanding that crossovers at 100hz and 4khz pretty-much avoid having a x-over in the midrange.

i do have a speaker driver in my oris 150 horn that goes from 150hz to 20khz...

doug s.
Hi Doug,

Thanks, but some years ago I decided to exit the midrange crossover frequencies, where the ear is most sensitive, and crossover quite low, in my case around 170hz. By doing so, I don't have the doppler effect while having the advantage of one driver from
low mids to 20khz.

The main problem I am having now is that the typical pots are so touchy and change resistance due to play in the control shaft.
So it looks like 10 or 15 turn pots are in order.

Cheers

steve

Hi Doug,

That is what some may say, so I attached some data graphs. Notice that the ear is most sensitive between ~800hz to 6khz, with 3.5khz/4khz clearly being the most sensitive frequencies of the ear. 100hz is somewhat ok, I used 170hz and found it was very touchy. How touchy?

150hz +/- is a normal low impedance area of a typical cone type speaker. I had been playing around with 5 feet length of 10 solid 18 gauge wires on one speaker leg, but only 9 parallel wires in the other speaker leg. 10 was too many and 8 was too few in that leg.

And the wire is nothing special, certainly not 4 or 6n. (Maybe that will be my next project but it won't be cheap.)

As mentioned before, I can also make a variable control adjustment to a millionth of an ohm or less range and visitors can perceive the sonic difference. Kinda backs up my parallel wires conclusions above. Could also mention 0,5mm rotation of speakers.

If a speaker is that critical at 170hz, imagine how sensitive the ear is at 4khz.

I like to keep the crossover as simple as possible, minimal slopes, minimal parts, for flat response, dynamics, sound stage, naturalness, which is difficult with the poor quality capacitors in the components and crossovers these days. Whenever I see
sharp resonances, even if out of band, I avoid it.

I have not found a speaker that I like, and I have auditioned plenty, up to $28k, pricey. After all these decades, that is why I designed my own test speakers.

cheers

steve
 
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on August 27, 2020, 11:58:58 AM
hi steve,

while i haven't heard mr blume's implementation of the accuton drivers, i have heard them in other speakers, and they sound damned nice, imo.  and considering my experience i've had w/the coincident victory's, and the almost universal raves from reviewers and customers alike, regarding all his products, i can't imagine a proper implementation of the accuton midrange and tweeter wouldn't be outstanding.  and coincident does it with a 1st order x-over using only one cap and two inductors.  according to mr blume, he can do this due to the synergy of the accuton midrange and tweeter, and that you cannot tell it isn't a single driver.  the accuton midrange is flat to 6khz; i'm sure he would have crossed it over higher if he felt it sounded better.

here's what coincident says about its x-over implementation w/these two drivers:
"As with all Coincident speakers, first order crossovers (which are the purest and preserve phase coherency) are used with only the finest components, matched to within 1%, all hardwired with lead to lead construction (eschewing the use of unnecessary wires or connectors). The signal path contains only one capacitor (Mundorf – The most transparent cap for the purpose) and two inductors (proprietary 10 AWG OFC Litz - one for the midrange and one for the bass). That is it. Elegant simplicity but as Einstein remarked- not too simple. This crossover is the most transparent, unobtrusive in existence. In bypass tests, its presence is virtually undetectable."

don't get me wrong; i think it's great that you're designing your own speakers.  which is why i suggested the accutons.

doug

Don't get me wrong Doug, I really appreciate the suggestions and thoughtfulness. I think I have heard of Accuton, but never
checked them out.

It is just that I am extremely picky when it comes to drivers, and I almost always go with the flattest response. Yes, there are other parameters such as cone material, the ts and Xmax values etc that I also take into account.

Past this point is more for newbies, not at Doug.

For instance, Qts is all important for me when it comes to woofers for my test speaker. An Fs of 20hz with a Qts of .2 is not what I am looking for when I want response to 20hz. I want accurate and tight response even with a tube amp.

Interestingly, two amplifiers can have a damping factor of 10, yet one will "sound" tight bass while the other will have flabby bass.

I went with the old tried and tested big box because it just sounds better than all these new concept types using
the above parameters (Fs 20 and Qts of .2). One of the comments I receive is how in the world did I get such taut and
natural sounding bass (both electric and double bass). Proper speaker design and proper amplifier design.
I realize that many folks do not like large 4.5 cubic foot cabinets. But I find it yields the best bass response. (Even with a 12"
woofer, the Xmas, cone movement, limits the spl of deep bass.)

I don't know which midrange or tweeter is used in a particular design.
But here is the response of a 2" Accuton Cell C51-6-286 2" Ceramic Dome Midrangemidrange driver.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-2-midrange/accuton-cell-c51-6-286-2-ceramic-dome-midrange/

Below is the FR plot. Using a 1st order, 6db/octave crossover at 4khz is begging for problems. There is
going to be a problem due to the rise above 10khz. My system would easily expose the problem.
A special low pass filter is needed above 10khz or so. But that is more parts which will also influence the purity.
One could also use a 4th order, but again too many parts for me.

Anyway, that is my rant for now.

Cheers and thanks for thinking of me Doug. I do appreciate your thoughtfulness.

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: _Scotty_ on August 27, 2020, 02:31:28 PM
That out of band undamped resonance has been the flaw with all of the drivers I've seen with very stiff cones.
According to distortion plots  I've seen of both the raw drivers and complete speaker systems the out band resonance point has a very large amount of 3rd order harmonic distortion associated with it. Even when this resonant peak is suppressed X dB with a 24db/oct. network the 3rd order distortion can be heard by many people and is very off putting.
 Sidebar, the dynamic life of the music takes a hit every time another component is added to the X over network in my opinion , which why I am proponent 1st order networks even though speakers designed this way usually come with off axis frequency response errors. The music sounds more alive to me and the off axis response errors can be ameliorated by appropriate room treatment.
Obviously YMMV.
Scotty

Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on August 27, 2020, 10:32:41 PM
That out of band undamped resonance has been the flaw with all of the drivers I've seen with very stiff cones.
According to distortion plots  I've seen of both the raw drivers and complete speaker systems the out band resonance point has a very large amount of 3rd order harmonic distortion associated with it. Even when this resonant peak is suppressed X dB with a 24db/oct. network the 3rd order distortion can be heard by many people and is very off putting.
 Sidebar, the dynamic life of the music takes a hit every time another component is added to the X over network in my opinion , which why I am proponent 1st order networks even though speakers designed this way usually come with off axis frequency response errors. The music sounds more alive to me and the off axis response errors can be ameliorated by appropriate room treatment.
Obviously YMMV.
Scotty

I agree Scotty. Resonances in, above, below the audio band cause all sorts of problems. Thanks for posting this
valuable information.

On a side note, I try very hard to keep my strings clean, keep the shovel in the shed. However, as a fool, at midnight,
I checked a link in this string, and had to get the shovel out and the hip boots on. It got pretty deep.

cheers
steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on August 28, 2020, 02:36:07 PM
hi steve,

i suspect this is the midwoofer that coincident uses in its top speakers:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-midrange/accuton-c173-6-090-6.5-ceramic-cone-midrange/ (https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-midrange/accuton-c173-6-090-6.5-ceramic-cone-midrange/)
its fs is 57hz, and it's crossed over to subwoofers at 100hz in the coincidents; it's not the fs of 581hz like the one you linked.  and no large frequency peak at higher frequencies like the one you linked.

and the point scotty made re: distortion, the midrange driver i linked has ~1.5% 2nd order distortion between 5-6khz, (no 3rd order to speak of); accuton says this about it:
"Anti-resonant cutout fills in the ceramic dome provide for damping of the 6 kHz dome resonance."

and this is the tweeter:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/hard-dome-tweeter/accuton-c30-6-024-1.2-ceramic-dome-tweeter-neodymium-magnet/ (https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/hard-dome-tweeter/accuton-c30-6-024-1.2-ceramic-dome-tweeter-neodymium-magnet/)

and, its 1st order crossover implementation is minimal - 1 cap and 1 inductor on the mid/tweet. and 1 inductor on the mid/subwoofers.

coincident may have some custom work done for its drivers by accuton, but as-is, the driver's frequency plots seem to indicate they could blend well, with appropriate cabinetry and crossover design.  and that audio nerd arthur salvatore, who has interesting things to say about all things audio, [http://www.high-endaudio.com/ (http://www.high-endaudio.com/)], thinks the top coincident model is the best speaker period, regardless of price.  personally, i'd love to hear these speakers.  there's a pair of the next model down - same drivers, but one box - f/s used at a great price, and i'm sorely tempted.  too bad i'm on furlough at present.  or maybe, it's a good thing!  ;)

doug s.

Don't get me wrong Doug, I really appreciate the suggestions and thoughtfulness. I think I have heard of Accuton, but never
checked them out.

It is just that I am extremely picky when it comes to drivers, and I almost always go with the flattest response. Yes, there are other parameters such as cone material, the ts and Xmax values etc that I also take into account.

Past this point is more for newbies, not at Doug.

For instance, Qts is all important for me when it comes to woofers for my test speaker. An Fs of 20hz with a Qts of .2 is not what I am looking for when I want response to 20hz. I want accurate and tight response even with a tube amp.

Interestingly, two amplifiers can have a damping factor of 10, yet one will "sound" tight bass while the other will have flabby bass.

I went with the old tried and tested big box because it just sounds better than all these new concept types using
the above parameters (Fs 20 and Qts of .2). One of the comments I receive is how in the world did I get such taut and
natural sounding bass (both electric and double bass). Proper speaker design and proper amplifier design.
I realize that many folks do not like large 4.5 cubic foot cabinets. But I find it yields the best bass response. (Even with a 12"
woofer, the Xmas, cone movement, limits the spl of deep bass.)

I don't know which midrange or tweeter is used in a particular design.
But here is the response of a 2" Accuton Cell C51-6-286 2" Ceramic Dome Midrangemidrange driver.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-2-midrange/accuton-cell-c51-6-286-2-ceramic-dome-midrange/

Below is the FR plot. Using a 1st order, 6db/octave crossover at 4khz is begging for problems. There is
going to be a problem due to the rise above 10khz. My system would easily expose the problem.
A special low pass filter is needed above 10khz or so. But that is more parts which will also influence the purity.
One could also use a 4th order, but again too many parts for me.

Anyway, that is my rant for now.

Cheers and thanks for thinking of me Doug. I do appreciate your thoughtfulness.

steve

Hi Doug,

Yes, he picked some of the better drivers which is good. There are still some questions I would ask myself though.

The tweeter looks pretty good, although I would like to check out the off axis response. Does it beam? I take it he minimized that
effect. If I had a choice, and gobs of money etc I would go for the Heils air motion transformers, maybe even the ionized helium, requiring tanks. Nah, the tanks are too much bother.
But so far so good.

The midrange is another matter between 2-4khz, within the most sensitive portion of the ear. I still don't like the 5khz and above
either as there is not a gentle, linear downward slope from 1.8khz to 8khz. That 5db "roughness in response" is going to show an unevenness when combined with the tweeters overlaping response. The worst part is the dip covers a whole octave, well above
the 1/3 octave width Rane claims is the minimum width necessary for being perceivable. Less than 1/3 octave is generally not perceivable.

Forgot to mention DB spikes and dips are directly added. For instance, if we have a spike of 5db, then the overlap will show the
5db spike. If we have a dip of 5db, then the overlap will dip 5db.

Not to worry Doug, I have had the same problem whenever I look at any 3 way design. Overlapping always occurs, worse with lower order crossover designs. That is why I went with a two way design, just one overlap to deal with, and at a much lower frequency.

Cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on September 12, 2020, 07:34:40 PM
Well, I made two more adjustments to the system. I went back to ten 18 gauge wires on both legs of my speaker cables.
This necessitated the lessening of the inductance by ~1 inch of one turn. These adjustments affect mainly the
upper bass/lower midrange output, which affects the perception across the entire audio band.

Going to check over many selections to see if any other touch ups might be necessary.

This is one minute adjustment, yet still made a positive sonic difference in the "lab".

cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on September 13, 2020, 06:17:35 PM
Could be good, but I am not everyone. I use specs, but even more, sophisticated/proprietary listening tests, that no one else uses. I have also "worked" with some exemplary individuals if I may.

Jneutron and I communicated and posted together some years ago. Jneutron worked at FermiLab, then Cern when they were designing and building it, last I heard J is at Brookhaven National Laboratory. He has "professored" other scientists in the classroom, and been an audiophile/music lover for some two decades now.

Decades ago, when fussing over parts quality, I spent some time conversing with Jenalabs. Michael worked as a sub-contractor on the probes that ventured outside our solar system and Jennifer worked on some "minor" government research projects. They gave me clues which parts were the most accurate, thus saving me valuable time.
By the way, I personally checked out their suggestions for myself.

I ran the lab in college, then my own lab for some decades. I have had students and professors consult me, not often, concerning audio projects etc.

One of the flags I look for when checking out a speaker is what electronic components are used to evaluate said speaker design. Using DHT is yesterdays news, and indicates what their "reference" is. DHTs have inherent limitations/flaws that limit the musical quality. Everything follows laws, whether it is room acoustics, parts quality, the design, or listening tests, in otherwards true Physics, not personal theories.

One of the major barriers that is occurring is that NOS tubes are fleeting, prices are rising; so the challenge is to produce a component that is superior without them. It Can be done.

That is where the 10A and 11A preamplifiers come in. Both preamplifiers are designed around new production tubes.
Both models consistently beat the competition, which use expensive NOS tubes, regardless of price.

That is why you won't find a used 11A for sale. The question is, who will continue the legacy when I am gone?

Sorry for the rant but my string has the goal of informing what is possible in audio vs what others are preaching dooms day with newly manufactured tubes.

I like the Heils, but the crossover point dictates a three way system imo. I would not use one with a xover at 800hz or lower as one would have to address Mr. Doppler, which degrades the sound. I would also not like one higher, say 1.6-2khz either.

I hope you can see my goal more clearly, I have been in uncharted territory for well over 20 years.

cheers

steve



 

re: the accutons; well, while not having heard mr blume's top creations, all i can say is i've never heard anyone who has, say anything less than they're one of the best speakers they've ever heard.

interesting you should mention the heil amt's.  their largest driver - 6" tall -  is rated 800hz to 20khz and 96db efficient.  i've always wondered how a stack (8, 9 or 12 drivers per side) would sound.  retail for 24 of them would be $4800 - not chump change, but within the realm of affordability.  ( and if you wanted to buy 24, i suspect the mfr might provide a bit of a price break.)  i wonder how low you could cross them, if running that many.  12 drivers would be something like ~106-107db efficient; i bet you could cross them over quite a bit lower and be successful, w/eq...

best,

doug s.

Hi Doug,

Yes, he picked some of the better drivers which is good. There are still some questions I would ask myself though.

The tweeter looks pretty good, although I would like to check out the off axis response. Does it beam? I take it he minimized that
effect. If I had a choice, and gobs of money etc I would go for the Heils air motion transformers, maybe even the ionized helium, requiring tanks. Nah, the tanks are too much bother.
But so far so good.

The midrange is another matter between 2-4khz, within the most sensitive portion of the ear. I still don't like the 5khz and above
either as there is not a gentle, linear downward slope from 1.8khz to 8khz. That 5db "roughness in response" is going to show an unevenness when combined with the tweeters overlaping response. The worst part is the dip covers a whole octave, well above
the 1/3 octave width Rane claims is the minimum width necessary for being perceivable. Less than 1/3 octave is generally not perceivable.

Forgot to mention DB spikes and dips are directly added. For instance, if we have a spike of 5db, then the overlap will show the
5db spike. If we have a dip of 5db, then the overlap will dip 5db.

Not to worry Doug, I have had the same problem whenever I look at any 3 way design. Overlapping always occurs, worse with lower order crossover designs. That is why I went with a two way design, just one overlap to deal with, and at a much lower frequency.

Cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on October 22, 2020, 02:13:25 PM
One more improvement I made, for musical stability purposes, is to exchange a couple of typical single turn potentiometers with 15 turn potentiometers. Too much shaft play in a typical pot for stability, and I need to adjust down to 1/16th turn on the 15 turn pot. Imagine trying that with a single turn pot.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on December 17, 2020, 04:58:50 PM
Some may be wondering why I started this string. For a few reasons.

The first is that as NOS tubes evaporate, there eventually will be none left. It is true that
just about every manufacturer designs around NOS but installs newly manufactured tubes.
So either one settles for second rate sound due to lack of funds for NOS tubes, or at some
future point NOS will become unavailable and all will have to settle for second rate musicality
anyway.

Being futuristic in nature and understanding the developing problem, I decided over 30 years
ago to design specifically around newly manufactured tubes. Those who know me understand
I am a perfectionist and will not stand for second rate musical reproduction. Read the string for
the lengths I will go to obtain the best musical reproduction.

https://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=6954.0

The first area I started with was the line preamplifier. I developed the 11A Line
Preamplifier which is so accurate to the source that one can only match its performance, not
usurp it.

What is amazing is that the 11A, with new tubes, was consistently judged better than
those preamplifiers using NOS tubes, whether indirectly heated or directly heated triodes.
I also did the same with my monoblock triode amplifiers (Ultra-Linear switchable).

Every stage of the preamplifier and monoblock amplifiers utilize a separate power transformer
for each DC plus and for each minus power supply voltage to eliminate musical interactions between
active stages. From the link above, one can see the fanatical attention to every fine detail.

Another example is the 11A uses 6 filter stages and eliminates up front/ac artifacts, isolates the power transformer and recdtifier, as well as an adjustment for differences in amplifier input impedance which affects the bass response.
 
The overall point in my strings is that it is possible to reproduce the very very best musical
quality by using new tubes and other newer parts vs NOS. It was a tough R&D process, but it
can and has been done. Don’t let anyone claim it cannot be done.

I have some reviews if anyone is interested. I will post a couple.

“SAS 10A Tube preamp. (Jon L)

"I must thank Steve once again for giving us the opportunity to audition this wonderful preamp.
My experience closely reflects what's been said in Bound For Sound and Eric, so I will be brief and just emphasize a couple of impressions.

THE strength of this preamp IMO is its sheer ability to communicate music in a way that makes you not even care about how it's doing it.

Let me explain. From pure audiophile point of view and in direct comparison to my EVS Ultimate Nude attenuators, I can nitpick and point out that the upper-midrange is a tad softened compared to dead neutral. The very low bass does not quite have the sheer granite slam of some humongous SS preamps. I'm talking about subtle degrees here, nothing that stands out.

What IS amazing is the fact the treble is just as extended, pure, grainless, and detailed as my EVS. This is an extremely difficult thing for any active preamp to achieve at any price, let alone a tubed preamp. What is even more amazing is that even though EVS does seem to pass more information, I actually enjoyed music more through 10A despite that knowledge. This is a feat that even a Bent silver TVC couldn't achieve against my EVS.

My sense is that there are very limited number of tube preamps out there that actually achieve what a "good tube preamp should do," which is to lend a sense of harmonic completeness, bloom, dimensionality, and plain musicality while NOT sacrificing objectionable amount of detail, extension, neutrality, bass definition/slam. You'd be surprised how many pricey, perhaps even famous, tube preamps do not meet the above definition. SAS 10A IS a "good tube preamp" in all its glory.

There's one thing I must complain about, however, which is the lack of IEC inlet to allow power cord swapping. (I include the jack now.) I am an admitted power cord junkie, and I can think of a few power cords that will minimize the upper midrange softness and add kick to low bass. For example, VH Audio cords will do exactly that for little investment. If I owned the 10A, I would definitely either DIY an IEC inlet, or hardwire a VH cord into the preamp. This combo will be scary good without question.

If I didn't have a system that was purpose-built around passive preamp (EVS), with whopping digital output voltage and 95dB sensitive speakers, I would own the 10A (with VH cord). It's just so musically engaging that this tube-rolling junkie didn't even try to roll any different tubes. FYI, That has not happened for any other tubed equipment that I've used ever..."

NOTE: All my preamplifiers now incorporate an AC IEC Jack, Standard. This allows for rolling power cords. My 10A also has an active stage of gain.

Second quick reviewer, (Earlmarc)

"First up, the SAS 11A preamplifer. Personally, I didn't think it was possible to better the 10A's performance. The 11A took it to another level. The degree of improvement is not in my opinion dramatic but is apparent. All the things I said in previous post about the 10A apply to the 11A, only the 11A increased the real factor to as close to live music as I have ever heard. Everything was more indentifiable and believable. The 11A is truly a reference preamplifier that I believe will stand toe to toe with the best of the best.

Second, the SAS Push/Pull KT88 mono amplifiers. Wow, what can I say. The best sounding amplifiers I've heard, especially when it comes to midrange magic. The palpability of images, the liviliness of voices, the air between notes, etc. I could go on and on about how shockingly real these amps sounded...."

I hope all continue to strive for excellence, as it can be obtained, so don't give up.

Caveat: I have been retired for some 8 years. I may start selling my “V” non shielded interconnects with 6n copper wire and gold plated, all copper RCA plugs again.

Please feel free to reply with questions.

Cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: Nick B on December 17, 2020, 11:01:37 PM
Some may be wondering why I started this string. For a few reasons.

The first is that as NOS tubes evaporate, there eventually will be none left. It is true that
just about every manufacturer designs around NOS but installs newly manufactured tubes.
So either one settles for second rate sound due to lack of funds for NOS tubes, or at some
future point NOS will become unavailable and all will have to settle for second rate musicality
anyway.

Being futuristic in nature and understanding the developing problem, I decided over 30 years
ago to design specifically around newly manufactured tubes. Those who know me understand
I am a perfectionist and will not stand for second rate musical reproduction. Read the string for
the lengths I will go to obtain the best musical reproduction.

https://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=6954.0

The first area I started with with the line preamplifier. I developed the 11A Line
Preamplifier which is so accurate to the source that one can only match its performance, not
usurp it. What is amazing is that the 11A, with new tubes, was consistently judged better than
those preamplifiers using NOS tubes, whether indirectly heated or directly heated triodes.
Thus I have obtained my perfectionist goal long sought after. I also did the same with my
monoblock triode amplifiers (Ultra-Linear switchable).

Every stage of the preamplifier and monoblock amplifiers utilize a separate power transformer
for each DC plus and minus power supply voltage to eliminate musical interactions between
active stages. From the link above, one can see the fanatical attention to every fine detail.
Another example is the 11A uses 6 filter stages and eliminates up front/ac artifacts.
 
My overall point in my strings is that it is possible to reproduce the very very best musical
quality by using new tubes and other newer parts vs NOS. It was a tough R&D process, but it
can be done. Don’t let anyone claim it cannot be done.

I have some reviews if anyone is interested. I will post a couple.

“SAS 10A Tube preamp. (Jon L)

"I must thank Steve once again for giving us the opportunity to audition this wonderful preamp.
My experience closely reflects what's been said in Bound For Sound and Eric, so I will be brief and just emphasize a couple of impressions.

THE strength of this preamp IMO is its sheer ability to communicate music in a way that makes you not even care about how it's doing it.

Let me explain. From pure audiophile point of view and in direct comparison to my EVS Ultimate Nude attenuators, I can nitpick and point out that the upper-midrange is a tad softened compared to dead neutral. The very low bass does not quite have the sheer granite slam of some humongous SS preamps. I'm talking about subtle degrees here, nothing that stands out.

What IS amazing is the fact the treble is just as extended, pure, grainless, and detailed as my EVS. This is an extremely difficult thing for any active preamp to achieve at any price, let alone a tubed preamp. What is even more amazing is that even though EVS does seem to pass more information, I actually enjoyed music more through 10A despite that knowledge. This is a feat that even a Bent silver TVC couldn't achieve against my EVS.

My sense is that there are very limited number of tube preamps out there that actually achieve what a "good tube preamp should do," which is to lend a sense of harmonic completeness, bloom, dimensionality, and plain musicality while NOT sacrificing objectionable amount of detail, extension, neutrality, bass definition/slam. You'd be surprised how many pricey, perhaps even famous, tube preamps do not meet the above definition. SAS 10A IS a "good tube preamp" in all its glory.

There's one thing I must complain about, however, which is the lack of IEC inlet to allow power cord swapping. (I include the jack now.) I am an admitted power cord junkie, and I can think of a few power cords that will minimize the upper midrange softness and add kick to low bass. For example, VH Audio cords will do exactly that for little investment. If I owned the 10A, I would definitely either DIY an IEC inlet, or hardwire a VH cord into the preamp. This combo will be scary good without question.

If I didn't have a system that was purpose-built around passive preamp (EVS), with whopping digital output voltage and 95dB sensitive speakers, I would own the 10A (with VH cord). It's just so musically engaging that this tube-rolling junkie didn't even try to roll any different tubes. FYI, That has not happened for any other tubed equipment that I've used ever..."

NOTE: All my preamplifiers now incorporate an AC IEC Jack, Standard. This allows for rolling power cords. My 10A also has an active stage of gain.

Second quick reviewer, (Earlmarc)

"First up, the SAS 11A preamplifer. Personally, I didn't think it was possible to better the 10A's performance. The 11A took it to another level. The degree of improvement is not in my opinion dramatic but is apparent. All the things I said in previous post about the 10A apply to the 11A, only the 11A increased the real factor to as close to live music as I have ever heard. Everything was more indentifiable and believable. The 11A is truly a reference preamplifier that I believe will stand toe to toe with the best of the best.

Second, the SAS Push/Pull KT88 mono amplifiers. Wow, what can I say. The best sounding amplifiers I've heard, especially when it comes to midrange magic. The palpability of images, the liviliness of voices, the air between notes, etc. I could go on and on about how shockingly real these amps sounded...."

I hope all continue to strive for excellence, as it can be obtained, so don't give up.

Caveat: I have been retired for some 8 years. I may start selling my “V” non shielded interconnects with 6n copper wire and gold plated, all copper RCA plugs again.

Please feel free to reply with questions.

Cheers

steve

Steve,
The mention of your amps made me wonder if Marty DeWulf or Richard Weiner ever reviewed them. I looked for your website, but it doesn’t appear to be active. If you have any pics or literature on the amps, maybe you could post.
Thanks,
Nick
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on December 19, 2020, 07:35:31 PM
My goal has been realized; that it is possible to design components with new stock tubes that can blow out NOS tube upgrades or NOS tube designs.

Referring to Dr. Weiner's list of preamplifiers (and more not mentioned), I think it is interesting to note that when Dr. Weiner first auditioned my 10A, it was the first time he had ever heard the recording studio wall reflections in a particular violin recording. He even asked his wife to confirm such.

That is true inner detail, revealing the backround of the venue, not harmonic distortion masking as inner detail.

I found a review from Earlmarc. Here is a portion concerning the 10A, 11A Line Preamplifiers, and 25PPT 2 stage monoblock amps.

"First up, the SAS 11A preamplifer. Personally, I didn't think it was possible to better the 10A's performance. The 11A took it to another level. The degree of improvement is not in my opinion dramatic but is apparent. All the things I said in previous post about the 10A apply to the 11A, only the 11A increased the real factor to as close to live music as I have ever heard. Everything was more indentifiable and believable...."

Second, the SAS Push/Pull KT88 mono amplifiers. Wow, what can I say. The best sounding amplifiers I've heard, especially when it comes to midrange magic. The palpability of images, the liveliness of voices, the air between notes, etc. I could go on and on about how shockingly real these amps sounded....."

More from my old 11A webpage. My website is down as my server has retired, but I might bring it back.

"Graham: "I took the B11a into a shop in Auckland. I know the owner fairly well, and we agree that Shindo make some wonderful pieces of kit. (I wasn't looking for a change!) Almost immediately we started listening, he said "That's really fast!" We also agreed that the B11a was much clearer, making the Shindo Aurieges sound slow, muddy, and coloured."

Terence: "I have been using the 11A since I received it but I didn't want to be premature in my assassment, although my initial assessments were favourable. Now, I must say that the 11A is certainly the best preamp I have ever owned, and the best I have ever heard-ss or tube. Thank you for a wonderful product, Steve."

Charles Phd, does musical reviews for PBS, Florida: "I just saw this post and you know I have to chime in here. After three years of preamp auditions I just pulled the trigger on the SAS 11A preamp. It was an unknown product to me but Marty Dewulf over at BFS (and who knows whats going on there these days, by that I mean it seems that Marty has slipped into retirement - forgive me Marty if I am wrong) Anyway he always said wonderful things about the preamp! So having no mind of my own I bought the preamp from Steve at SAS audio. The reason I bought the preamp is that I did not want to do the crazy audiophile thing of always upgrading. Buying the SAS preamp was the best thing I could have done. It's wonderful! Clear, fast musical and very truthful to the source. And more importantly it works well with both tube and solid state amps (i.e. Pass 30.5 & Audio-space 300b mono-blocks).

Bernie: "I have also tested the 11A in terms of comparing the sound from my excellent cd source directly to amps versus inserting the 11A pre between. I could detect no difference whatsoever.... So, my two cents: the SAS preamps are stellar – with my 11A I hear no compression or any other alteration of the originating signal."

George: "Steve,, this pre is "top shelf",, I currently have it thru odyssey mono se's to a pair of Carver Amazings,,, it's gonna be difficult for me to box it up and ship it on to Weez,,, organic, man,, organic,,, as soon as I receive the address, I'll ship it on,, I've got it "dialed in",,, it's so good,,it's scary---thanks for the opportunity to let me/us audition such a fine piece of gear---- george (George tested the 11A on tour.)

Charlie: "Steve,The overwhelming Majority of comments regarding the 11A during the tour have been very favorable. Everyone at Woodsyi's with the exception of Doug S who seemed to have prior issues with you because of you refusing to offer the 10A with a remote volume thought that the 11A was by far the best sounding pre of the bunch. DaveG sat there with Scotty and myself and fully agreed that the 11A was clearly the superior preamplifier out of the group."

Rich (Audio Circle): "I've been listening to a lot of preamps this week and even with the problems, it is evident to me that the 11A is in a different league. I'm glad I heard it first, because it set a high mark for the others to follow. The only other pre that sounds naturally musical so far is the Minimax with vintage 12AU7s. They are just too tubey though. But at least the sound is natural and tone is not all screwed up.....

Thanks Steve.
Rich"

Ray: "your prees are somewhat legendary in their reviews."

Jack: "My 10A is going to the grave with me, it's my favorite piece of audio gear. The 11A is better but they rarely come up for sale." (Jack auditioned the 11A at his venue.)

Bob: "Hey guys. . .if anyone's interested, I'm selling my Tram 2 preamp since my SAS B11A is so awesome...." (Tram 2 uses 45, 2A3s)"


My goal has been realized; that it is possible to design components with new stock tubes that can blow out NOS tube upgrades or stock designs.

Cheers

steve

Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on February 11, 2021, 01:01:02 PM
steve, you shouldn't tease us like this, and then remind us you're retired.  you need to start making these again.

doug s.


It has crossed my mind Doug, but not strongly. I am currently testing one manufacturers capacitors. I could use
the 10A black chassis, but it is not the best, but it would keep the price down some.

How to label the knobs in front as my silk screener is retired. Of course there are only the selector, two volume controls, and the power switch. But no lettering in front or back, including warnings of shock inside?

The 11A would be the design I would wish to start again if I decided to.

cheers

steve

ps. I just compared two upgraded DACs and player to a Monarchy 24 tube DAC.

https://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=8173.msg100860#msg100860
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on June 10, 2021, 08:12:19 PM
Well, I have made a couple of more tweaks to my monoblock tube amps over the past week or so.

1. The first was to add another filter stage to my negative power supply rail in each monoblock. This was to increase isolation between the signal stage and the power transformer, line cord, AC power etc. I needed to use a 4" wire on one capacitor lead. Little did I know I was to perform another experiment. Point two.

2. One capacitor lead was just not long enough, so I used a 22 gauge 4" wire to connect the poly cap to ground.  Sounded incredible. Then I got the bright idea of replacing the wire with a 20g wire. The sound became too full, lost depth, transparency, too full etc. So I swapped back to the 22g wire and amazingly, the sound was back. I continued the back and forth swap during this week. The sonic difference was quite apparent.

This experiment was under "lab" conditions. So the criteria of building such a component is, every single wire and connection needs to be very carefully performed to obtain optimum results.
Degradation is so so so easy.

Cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: Nick B on June 10, 2021, 09:17:36 PM
Well, I have made a couple of more tweaks to my monoblock tube amps over the past week or so.

1. The first was to add another filter stage to my negative power supply rail in each monoblock. This was to increase isolation between the signal stage and the power transformer, line cord, AC power etc. I needed to use a 4" wire on one capacitor lead. Little did I know I was to perform another experiment. Point two.

2. One capacitor lead was just not long enough, so I used a 22 gauge 4" wire to connect the poly cap to ground.  Sounded incredible. Then I got the bright idea of replacing the wire with a 20g wire. The sound became too full, lost depth, transparency, too full etc. So I swapped back to the 22g wire and amazingly, the sound was back. I continued the back and forth swap during this week. The sonic difference was quite apparent.

This experiment was under "lab" conditions. So the criteria of building such a component is, every single wire and connection needs to be very carefully performed to obtain optimum results.
Degradation is so so so easy.

Cheers

steve

Hi Steve,
How interesting regarding the difference with the 20 vs 22 gauge wire. Am curious what solder you like to use.
Nick
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on June 11, 2021, 03:15:05 PM
Well, I have made a couple of more tweaks to my monoblock tube amps over the past week or so.

1. The first was to add another filter stage to my negative power supply rail in each monoblock. This was to increase isolation between the signal stage and the power transformer, line cord, AC power etc. I needed to use a 4" wire on one capacitor lead. Little did I know I was to perform another experiment. Point two.

2. One capacitor lead was just not long enough, so I used a 22 gauge 4" wire to connect the poly cap to ground.  Sounded incredible. Then I got the bright idea of replacing the wire with a 20g wire. The sound became too full, lost depth, transparency, too full etc. So I swapped back to the 22g wire and amazingly, the sound was back. I continued the back and forth swap during this week. The sonic difference was quite apparent.

This experiment was under "lab" conditions. So the criteria of building such a component is, every single wire and connection needs to be very carefully performed to obtain optimum results.
Degradation is so so so easy.

Cheers

steve

Hi Steve,
How interesting regarding the difference with the 20 vs 22 gauge wire. Am curious what solder you like to use.
Nick

Cardas Quad, but I also made a special blend for certain components such as ics (interconnect cables).

By the way, simply using a gas tight crimp type wire/plug connection will NOT result in an accurate musical
signal "transfer". This via specialized listening tests over years.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on August 10, 2021, 03:48:56 PM
hey!

i just now saw this, and i'm pretty sure it never happened!  while it's true that a preamp w/o a remote is not on my shopping list, i would never make a sonic judgment about it because of that.  and i certainly NEVER had any issues w/you, steve; for this or any other reason!?!  why would i ever have issues w/someone who's made a design choice about his product, simply because i'd prefer something else - seriously?!?  (i might consider using my diy paradise eva with it, if i heard it and liked it enough - heh!)

while i've been to rim's and enjoyed his system on quite a few occasions, (not lately, tho; he seems to have written me off since i've been banned from a well-known site run by someone who always had it in for me), i actually don't ever recall hearing hearing one of steve's preamps there.  and, while i am getting up there a bit in age, my memory is still pretty sharp.

i do recall hearing a modwright tubed preamp there that sounded solid-state and i wasn't too crazy about it; i don't remember the model, and maybe it was even w/a remote!  it certainly wasn't an sas preamp. maybe the modwright is what charlie was thinking about?  everyone there certainly knew it wasn't my cuppa...

just wanting to set the record straight...

doug s.

Charlie: "Steve,The overwhelming Majority of comments regarding the 11A during the tour have been very favorable. Everyone at Woodsyi's with the exception of Doug S who seemed to have prior issues with you because of you refusing to offer the 10A with a remote volume thought that the 11A was by far the best sounding pre of the bunch. DaveG sat there with Scotty and myself and fully agreed that the 11A was clearly the superior preamplifier out of the group."

No harm taken Doug. You have always been a straight shooter and I appreciate that. My posts have to be approved by the moderator on that forum. Frankly, I agree. I never liked the Mod either, not accurate, sterile, not natural at all. 

cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on August 19, 2021, 10:14:30 PM
I believe you Doug. No sweat.

Arg, I found two metal oxide resistors in the speaker crossovers from years ago. They look close to metal films.

I have to parallel resistors, include very high ohmage ones as my 0.5% accurate Tektronix resistance/capacitance meter just cannot measure to the accuracy necessary. So I use a small 26 turn Vishay bulk foil variable control in series and pink noise to match speakers. We are talking 1 part in 100,000 minimum on the bass control.

Anyway, I replaced the high ohmage metal oxides with metal films and what only I can describe as something I did not believe was possible occurred.

ps. In general, a bad sonic part becomes more important to sonics, the music, as the number of poor parts is reduced.

I have not mentioned it in a while, but the system is a grand lab experiment to see what the ear is capable of, and to see how live the recording can sound with some of the better recordings.

Of course, the experiment is virtually impossible to copy. But I think it is valuable information, as knowledge is  power and helps in making decisions, and what is simply marketing tatics. 

cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on August 27, 2021, 01:28:18 PM
A little while back I noticed the sonic/music become more full. So I started performing some experiments with the tightness of the speaker wire nuts on both the amplifier and speaker.

For newbies, the tighter the nuts, the more contact pressure, and the lower the contact resistance.

I think this aspect has been extremely neglected, having never seen a post mentioning the problem over the decades on any forum.

That is, the sonics will vary with the contact resistance of the speaker wires at both the amplifier and speakers. I am able to alter the sonics on my system by simply adjusting the contact pressure on either the speaker or amplifier connections.

Finger tight is not enough. I noticed a musical difference at every session.

First, I cleaned the connectors on both amp and speakers with a cleaner that leaves no residue. I cleaned the speaker wire ends as well. 
Next, use either a wrench or worst case pliers and tighten more, until extremely tight. This should provide some consistency in musical reproduction if one notices the sonic qualities seeming to change from session to session.

Will everyone notice a musical difference? No. If the system has masking problems, too full, a sonic difference may not be noticed.

If ok, I would like to post this same post in amps and preamps, as I have never seen this aspect presented in any forum.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: Nick B on August 27, 2021, 01:40:27 PM
A little while back I noticed the sonic/music become more full. So I started performing some experiments with the tightness of the speaker wire nuts on both the amplifier and speaker.

For newbies, the tighter the nuts, the more contact pressure, and the lower the contact resistance.

I think this aspect has been extremely neglected, having never seen a post mentioning the problem over the decades.

That is, the sonics will vary with the contact resistance of the speaker wires to both the amplifier and speaker. I am able to alter the sonics on my system by simply adjusting the contact pressure on either the speaker or amplifier connections.

Finger tight is not enough. First, clean the connectors on both amp and speakers with a cleaner that leaves no residue. Clean the speaker wire ends as well. 
Next, use either a wrench or worst case pliers and tighten more, until extremely tight. This should provide some consistency in musical reproduction if the sonic qualities seem to change from session to session.

Will everyone notice a musical difference? No. If the system has masking problems, too full, a sonic difference may not be noticed.

I would appreciate any posts that describe the sonic difference they notice.

If ok, I would like to post this same post in amps and preamps, as I have never seen this aspect presented in any forum.

cheers

steve

Steve,
It’s ok with me to post in those sections as well. I don’t recall having seen this presented elsewhere either. I can’t try this experiment as for the first time ever I’m using bananas.
Nick
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: tmazz on August 28, 2021, 01:20:16 PM
I agree, finger tight just doesn't cut it. Fir many years now I have used ab Audioquest device called The Postman. It look like a screwdriver handle with 1/2 and 7/16th sockets sunk into each hand. With an open ended or socket  wrench on a ratchet handle it is too easy to apply too much torque and strip or even break  a plastic binding post. The Postman gives you the grip of a socket but without the leverage of a wrench, making it easier to control how tight you make the binding post.

It does a great job and in audiophile terms it is a bargain at less than $20 from Amazon or any of the online high end dealers.

Highly recommended

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41NFp16SYsL._AC_SS450_.jpg)
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on August 30, 2021, 09:32:23 PM
Unfortunately, my speaker jacks are round, otherwise I would use an inch pounds tork wrench to
tighten.

For newbies, over the years, I have found banana, spades etc to be inferior to direct speaker
wire connection. Bypassing the jacks and soldering the speaker wires to the OPT leads is probably the
best of all, but I have not proven it, and I need flexibility to remove the amps for testing purposes.

It is important that the surface be completely smooth, with no slight kinks or small, rough spots that
would reduce the contact area, increasing the resistance.
Increasing the resistance lowers the damping factor across the entire audio band.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on October 21, 2021, 11:03:26 AM
Question about how my system responds to the sonic differences between YouTube Premium and redbook?

Adjustments, controls on the speakers. I wish all speakers had touch up controls so as to optimize reproduction from both. Simply repositioning the speakers can help most of the time. But even with YouTube Premium, overall, I would not switch audio systems using Redbook. Maybe another venue for wider soundstage, but that is it.

The ear is incredibly sensitive to tonal changes/frequency response changes. Correlating resistance changes to -DB amplitude changes, 1 in 100,000 would equate to ~ -100db tonal balance/frequency response change. One in a million equates to ~ -120db change.
 
Since the damping factor between amp/speakers is only ~10, perfect correlation is not achievable. However, even within a db or three off demonstrates the extreme sensitivity of the ear.

That is why it is so difficult to obtain perfect input to output perfection with electronic components.

cheers

steve 
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: P.I. on October 21, 2021, 11:42:51 AM
Been asked about how my system responds to the sonic differences between YouTube Premium and redbook?

Adjustments, controls on the speakers. I wish all speakers had adjustments so as to optimize reproduction from both.
Just a small change is necessary. Simply repositioning the speakers will definitely help most of the time.

The ear is incredibly sensitive to tonal changes/frequency response changes. Correlating resistance changes to -DB amplitude changes, 1 in 100,000 would equate to ~ -100db change. One in a million equates to ~ -120db change.
Since the damping factor between amp/speakers is only ~10, a perfect correlation will not be present. However, even within a db or two of perfect correlation demonstrates the extreme sensitivity of the ear.

That is why it is so difficult to obtain perfect input to output perfection with electronic components.

cheers

steve
The ear is an incredibly precise complex set of instruments.  I'm well past my listening prime at 73, but in years past I had the ears of a bat.  Even at my age I can instantly identify the difference between a m7b5 chord vs a dim7 and generally nail the scale.  I can detect tuning differentials of 2 cents easily. 

BUT: I had the pleasure of working with fellow engineers that had astonishing pitch and level discernment.

Eric Larson, the main engineer/producer/arranger of Sara K's "Gypsy Alley" recording could consistently detect level differences of ~.1dB.  I just couldn't do that.  About .2dB was as good as I could get an 80% confidence agreement upon.  Doug Geist (Santa Fe Center Studios) could and still can nail the center frequency of a dip in frequency response. It is MUCH easier to identify a peak... even I can do that within about 1/16 octave, but Doug has the confidence skill of about 90% with +/- 3Hz < 250Hz.  Uncanny.

Great mastering engineers have both perfect and relative pitch ingrained into their souls.

Critical listening is a skill, but also a gift. Some people just never get there.  Being able to listen critically is one of those things that makes for a thoroughly enjoyable and simultaneously painful experience with bad recordings.   :D
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on October 21, 2021, 01:23:44 PM
Been asked about how my system responds to the sonic differences between YouTube Premium and redbook?

Adjustments, controls on the speakers. I wish all speakers had adjustments so as to optimize reproduction from both.
Just a small change is necessary. Simply repositioning the speakers will definitely help most of the time.

The ear is incredibly sensitive to tonal changes/frequency response changes. Correlating resistance changes to -DB amplitude changes, 1 in 100,000 would equate to ~ -100db change. One in a million equates to ~ -120db change.
Since the damping factor between amp/speakers is only ~10, a perfect correlation will not be present. However, even within a db or two of perfect correlation demonstrates the extreme sensitivity of the ear.

That is why it is so difficult to obtain perfect input to output perfection with electronic components.

cheers

steve
The ear is an incredibly precise complex set of instruments.  I'm well past my listening prime at 73, but in years past I had the ears of a bat.  Even at my age I can instantly identify the difference between a m7b5 chord vs a dim7 and generally nail the scale.  I can detect tuning differentials of 2 cents easily. 

BUT: I had the pleasure of working with fellow engineers that had astonishing pitch and level discernment.

Eric Larson, the main engineer/producer/arranger of Sara K's "Gypsy Alley" recording could consistently detect level differences of ~.1dB.  I just couldn't do that.  About .2dB was as good as I could get an 80% confidence agreement upon.  Doug Geist (Santa Fe Center Studios) could and still can nail the center frequency of a dip in frequency response. It is MUCH easier to identify a peak... even I can do that within about 1/16 octave, but Doug has the confidence skill of about 90% with +/- 3Hz < 250Hz.  Uncanny.

Great mastering engineers have both perfect and relative pitch ingrained into their souls.

Critical listening is a skill, but also a gift. Some people just never get there.  Being able to listen critically is one of those things that makes for a thoroughly enjoyable and simultaneously painful experience with bad recordings.   :D

Thanks for the informatioin P. I. Much appreciated. If the bad recording sounds thin/sterile, personally, that can be tough to take, depending upon how sterile.

Dan, audiophile from Mt. Pulaski, Illinois, comes over and I make a 1 part in 1,000,000 resistance change across the full range driver and we both clearly here the tonal balance change; the harmonic structure, cleanness, dymanics/attack time, transparency, depth, width change is obvious.

Parts as well. Finding and replacing that one high resistance metal oxide resistor (in parallel with a very low metal film resistor), the sonic change that took place was quite gratifying.

The limit for me, now, is the low/moderate recording equipment design/parts quality used. Fortunately, I believe there are some venues that are starting to use higher quality recording components and interconnects, and shortening the signal path, fewer parts, better parts quality etc. Hopefully, future recordings will continue to improve.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: Nick B on October 21, 2021, 10:36:57 PM
Been asked about how my system responds to the sonic differences between YouTube Premium and redbook?

Adjustments, controls on the speakers. I wish all speakers had adjustments so as to optimize reproduction from both.
Just a small change is necessary. Simply repositioning the speakers will definitely help most of the time.

The ear is incredibly sensitive to tonal changes/frequency response changes. Correlating resistance changes to -DB amplitude changes, 1 in 100,000 would equate to ~ -100db change. One in a million equates to ~ -120db change.
Since the damping factor between amp/speakers is only ~10, a perfect correlation will not be present. However, even within a db or two of perfect correlation demonstrates the extreme sensitivity of the ear.

That is why it is so difficult to obtain perfect input to output perfection with electronic components.

cheers

steve
The ear is an incredibly precise complex set of instruments.  I'm well past my listening prime at 73, but in years past I had the ears of a bat.  Even at my age I can instantly identify the difference between a m7b5 chord vs a dim7 and generally nail the scale.  I can detect tuning differentials of 2 cents easily. 

BUT: I had the pleasure of working with fellow engineers that had astonishing pitch and level discernment.

Eric Larson, the main engineer/producer/arranger of Sara K's "Gypsy Alley" recording could consistently detect level differences of ~.1dB.  I just couldn't do that.  About .2dB was as good as I could get an 80% confidence agreement upon.  Doug Geist (Santa Fe Center Studios) could and still can nail the center frequency of a dip in frequency response. It is MUCH easier to identify a peak... even I can do that within about 1/16 octave, but Doug has the confidence skill of about 90% with +/- 3Hz < 250Hz.  Uncanny.

Great mastering engineers have both perfect and relative pitch ingrained into their souls.

Critical listening is a skill, but also a gift. Some people just never get there.  Being able to listen critically is one of those things that makes for a thoroughly enjoyable and simultaneously painful experience with bad recordings.   :D

Very interesting comments, Dave, that you and Steve have made recently. I think my hearing is still quite good nowadays and I have a natural ability to easily detect musical rhythms. Maybe a little bit of that is due to my ballroom dancing days. I wish I were a musician or had a degree in music. Although I’ve been a member of a couple of audio clubs, I can’t say that I’ve ever been super impressed with anyone’s system or listening skills. Even being age 70, it would be fun to know to what extent I could detect differences that you guys are describing. My brother-in-law is a sound engineer in Los Angeles, but I never asked him if I could see his studio or sit in when some of the groups were recording at his place.
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: P.I. on October 21, 2021, 11:20:34 PM

Parts as well. Finding and replacing that one high resistance metal oxide resistor (in parallel with a very low metal film resistor), the sonic change that took place was quite gratifying.

The limit for me, now, is the low/moderate recording equipment design/parts quality used. Fortunately, I believe there are some venues that are starting to use higher quality recording components and interconnects, and shortening the signal path, fewer parts, better parts quality etc. Hopefully, future recordings will continue to improve.

cheers

steve
Parts quality and materials are really where 'system voicing' lives and breathes.  The worst culprits overall, are all of the resistors in the signal chain, from input to speaker output - IME.

Capacitors suck (I'll get to this) but resistors suck, absolutely.

It is not only the materials used as resistive elements, but construction and coatings.

The differences between: carbon composition; carbon film; metal film; metal oxide; wire wound; non-inductive wire wound, tantalum; bulk foil; nude bulk foil; cermet oxide; pencil lead graphite...  they all sound very different.  It all comes down to using the 'right' resistor for the application.

Experience dictates which one of these options is appropriate.  I have 59 years of experience and I learn something about "that piece of gear" when I make changes.

Steve, you nailed it.  Those minuscule changes can sometimes take us from"whaaa?" to "ahhhhhhhhh!".  That is a huge part of the reward we get for what we do!  :thumb:
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: dflee on October 22, 2021, 08:16:21 AM
Dave
And the humble masses reap the rewards of your knowledge.
Thus we will be forever grateful (or at least I will).
I don't have a clue of what both you and Steve are talking about yet I've read every post.

Don
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: tmazz on October 22, 2021, 04:11:26 PM
Dave
And the humble masses reap the rewards of your knowledge.
Thus we will be forever grateful (or at least I will).

Ditto!   :thumb:
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: P.I. on October 22, 2021, 04:57:22 PM
Guys, thanks, but as it has been said "I am not worthy".  I just try hard!
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on October 24, 2021, 07:25:17 AM
Guys, thanks, but as it has been said "I am not worthy".  I just try hard!

You have put in a labor of love, the countless hours of work, and we appreciate you.

D and T, and others, I understand where you are coming from. We all have some sort of expertise in
different fields. Hopefully, we help one another.

It takes so much work to gain knowledge. Stated in at least one book, it takes 10,000 hours minimum to become an expert in a field. I believe that is absolute minimum, but probably much higher.

Maybe the best way to explain it, is the difference between the first generation tape recording, and the third or fourth generation LP pressing. Although not an exact comparison (for those who have not heard the difference) maybe place a thin cloth over your speakers.

One poor capacitor, resistor, wire type/size, material mating, solder connection, compression connection can degrade the sound. Synergy only helps to a point, best to minimize errors when possible.

When completed, as Dave so nicely put it, from "whaaa?, to ahhhhhhhhh".

cheers

steve



 

 

Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: P.I. on October 24, 2021, 09:40:42 AM
Guys, thanks, but as it has been said "I am not worthy".  I just try hard!

You have put in a labor of love, the countless hours of work, and we appreciate you.

D and T, and others, I understand where you are coming from. I have the same trouble understanding some other fields. We all have some sort of expertise in different fields. Hopefully, we help one another.

It takes so much work to gain knowledge. Stated in at least one book, it takes 10,000 hours minimum to become an expert in a field. I believe that is absolute minimum, but probably much higher.

Maybe the best way to explain it, is the difference between the first generation tape recording, and the third or fourth generation LP pressing. Although not an exact comparison (for those who have not heard the difference) maybe place a very thin cloth over your speakers.

One poor capacitor, resistor, wire type/size, material mating, solder connection, compression connection can degrade the sound. Synergy only helps to a point, best to minimize errors when possible.

When completed, as Dave so nicely put it, from "whaaa?, to ahhhhhhhhh".

cheers

steve
Thanks Steve.  I love what I do, I love music and I love spreading the joy.

There is a corollary to the 10,000 hours statement:  an expert is a person that has made 10,000 errors in one field of endeavor... and learned from every one of them.
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on October 24, 2021, 03:16:46 PM
Guys, thanks, but as it has been said "I am not worthy".  I just try hard!

You have put in a labor of love, the countless hours of work, and we appreciate you.

D and T, and others, I understand where you are coming from. I have the same trouble understanding some other fields. We all have some sort of expertise in different fields. Hopefully, we help one another.

It takes so much work to gain knowledge. Stated in at least one book, it takes 10,000 hours minimum to become an expert in a field. I believe that is absolute minimum, but probably much higher.

Maybe the best way to explain it, is the difference between the first generation tape recording, and the third or fourth generation LP pressing. Although not an exact comparison (for those who have not heard the difference) maybe place a very thin cloth over your speakers.

One poor capacitor, resistor, wire type/size, material mating, solder connection, compression connection can degrade the sound. Synergy only helps to a point, best to minimize errors when possible.

When completed, as Dave so nicely put it, from "whaaa?, to ahhhhhhhhh".

cheers

steve
Thanks Steve.  I love what I do, I love music and I love spreading the joy.

There is a corollary to the 10,000 hours statement:  an expert is a person that has made 10,000 errors in one field of endeavor... and learned from every one of them.

Amen to that Dave. I was fortunate in that early on, I got a tip of an accurate capacitor, purchased it and thoroughly listen tested it by a couple of methods for input to output accuracy; the advice was spot on. Similar with resistors. After that, over 2 decades of research and development.

For newbies, if simply solving a few engineering equations for a design, and presenting those specs is ok for an average design, why pay an engineer/company when virtually anyone can design an average component with a couple of equations?

What sets those above are those who understand and address many other considerations, such as the field of physics, layout, audio transmission of wire itself, the correct value of those parts, to obtain a top notch sonic performance. R&D, R&D.

Here is a clue. One can obtain the same/similar specs by using a variety of parts types, and parts value. However, only one part type and value of each will give the most accurate music.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: dflee on October 24, 2021, 06:27:50 PM
"Here is a clue. One can obtain the same/similar specs by using a variety of parts types, and parts value. However, only one part type and value of each will give the most accurate music."

My head just exploded.

Don
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: tmazz on October 24, 2021, 09:12:08 PM
When I was in college I spent time working as a photographer. Whenever possible I would use a handheld incident light meter instead of the camera's reflective light meter. The cameras meter measured the light bouncing off the subject and assuming the amount of refection in an average mix of colors it estimated the amount of light falling on the subject. This is OK if you are just looking for acceptable pictures as film has a range of exposures that it will work with. However; using the incident light meter I could measure the actual amount of light falling on the subject instead of estimating it and this allowed be to precisely set my exposures down to a quarter of an f/stop. Yes you can get an OK picture with an estimated reading from a reflective meter, but when you dialed in that exposure dead on the resulting pictures just had a pop to them that I could never get using just the in board camera meter.

It is the same thing with electronic design. It is fairly easy to get an OK design, but when you put in the time, effort and experience to get it just right, you are in a whole different world of performance.
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on October 24, 2021, 11:02:03 PM
When I was in college I spent time working as a photographer. Whenever possible I would use a handheld incident light meter instead of the camera's reflective light meter. The cameras meter measured the light bouncing off the subject and assuming the amount of refection in an average mix of colors it estimated the amount of light falling on the subject. This is OK if you are just looking for acceptable pictures as film has a range of exposures that it will work with. However; using the incident light meter I could measure the actual amount of light falling on the subject instead of estimating it and this allowed be to precisely set my exposures down to a quarter of an f/stop. Yes you can get an OK picture with an estimated reading from a reflective meter, but when you dialed in that exposure dead on the resulting pictures just had a pop to them that I could never get using just the in board camera meter.

It is the same thing with electronic design. It is fairly easy to get an OK design, but when you put in the time, effort and experience to get it just right, you are in a whole different world of performance.

Great example from a different field that is easy to digest. Thank you Tom.

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: Nick B on October 25, 2021, 12:40:05 AM
This is great stuff  :thumb:  To what extent I could determine some of the very small changes being described here, I don’t know, but it sure would be fun trying to find out…

What would also be fun is to have is a CD of recorded music/sounds that would allow comparison of different caps, resistors, types and purity of wire, etc. Don’t know if that’s doable or that I’ve seen something like that, but it would be a great companion disc to have.
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on October 25, 2021, 05:23:38 PM
"Here is a clue. One can obtain the same/similar specs by using a variety of parts types, and parts value. However, only one part type and value of each will give the most accurate music."

My head just exploded.

Don

Didn't mean to explode your head Don. I think I can expand and make my comment easier to understand.

1. By varying the bias on a tube or ss device, the distortion pattern will vary. The distortoin spectrum might not
be that different, but enough if it involved 2nd vs 3rd, or better yet 2nd vs 9th order. The higher the harmonic, the lower the % to be perceived.

2. One sees so many components whose specs state 0,1db from 20 to 20khz or +/- 0,1db 20 to 20khz (0,2db total variation). Very rarely is the actual spec going to be exactly 0,1db at 20hz or 20khz. It could be a variation, say -0,035db, -0,078db or -0,092db etc at one extreme and a different -0,xdb at the other extreme.

Remember that - 0,1db means the frequency response lowered only a small amount, about ~60db down from the midrange reference. However, the ear can perceive tonal changes (frequecy response changes nearly -100db down or more. Besides tonal changes, thin or fullness, we can notice changes in dynamics, sound stage width/depth, "cleanness" etc. Small changes is why so many notice sonic differences between different models, brands of components.

As such a -60db change is huge. All it takes is a small variation of resistance value/quality, and/or capacitor type and value/quality as well. (+/- 0,1db is only a -54db change in FR. that is quite pathetic.)

 Never, never accept an article comparing capacitor brands as anywhere even close to being accurate.

3. As mentioned above, capacitors are notorious for being inaccurate. A capacitor is two foils separated by an insulator. Usually the foils/insulator are wrapped around and around, as an example let's say 100 turns.

If one measures with a scope, meter, you won't observe much of a difference between capacitors? Simply put, a scope or meter is not nearly sensitive enough, thus not sensitive enough to measure all parameters. (

The equation 1/2piFC equation (1/6.28 times frequency times capacitance in farads) doesn't really tell us a whole lot either. It is simply an equation that tells us the approximate capacitive reactance (AC resistance) at a particular frequency. It does not give us any information concerning the dielectric absorption (DA), nor the equivalent series resistance, the internal resistance and inductance of the foil turns.
     
     a. In simple terms, the dielectric absorption problem is electrons sticking to the insulation when they should let go and "travel" in the circuit. Energy is stored when it should not be. Below is a graph test demonstrating this effect in voltage (a form of signal). The old fashion picture tube short test is another way. Short the picture tube, wait 30 seconds and watch for another spark when shorted. High DA causes a lack of dynamics, blurring etc, etc.

     b. The termination of a capacitor's foils to lead wires affects the charging and discharging of a capacitor. A capacitor actually "fully" charges and discharges every cycle (perfect capacitor). 20khz per second is mighty fast charge and discharge. Any resistance in the foil and inductance affects this charging and discharging.

I hope this helps everyone (even though simplistic). Below is a general type test that shows a capacitor being discharged to zero, and over time the voltage gradually rises. As mentioned above, this is due to electrons slowly releasing from the insulator instead of instantaneously, and being released when it should not be. This slow releasing occurs for several minutes. In music, the  milliseconds, two seconds, 30 seconds, 2 minutes later changes bias,
smears the sound etc.

Its a real mess that should be addressed if possible.

I hope this is easier to understand.

cheers

steve

Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on October 26, 2021, 11:11:26 AM
This is great stuff  :thumb:  To what extent I could determine some of the very small changes being described here, I don’t know, but it sure would be fun trying to find out…

What would also be fun is to have is a CD of recorded music/sounds that would allow comparison of different caps, resistors, types and purity of wire, etc. Don’t know if that’s doable or that I’ve seen something like that, but it would be a great companion disc to have.

The brighness, the clarity, attack times seem easily discernable to those who visit. However, hearing fatigue will set in that will affect one's ability to discern if listening to the same selections over and over at one sitting. The quality of the recordings vary quite considerably as well. Some mask the musical information much more than others.

Others have attempted and written capacitor comparison articles, but I am not sure if that is what you mean. Anyway, those articles are less than worthless when it comes to how accurate is the capacitor itself. That is because they either don't know, or they don't do the work necessary to perform those experiments.

Actual, accurate testing requires multiple sources, multiple setups, highest quality selections, more than one testing  method, and takes a long time if one wishes to be spot on, (may wish to quit, sick of recordings) to make sure one's conclusions are absolutely correct in absolute terms.

When I was young I performed the research from scratch, but today I don't think I could. Just very complicated, time consuming, and fatiguing.

I am sorry to report Nick, that there is no way of easily scientifically test a capacitor, or resistor. I wish I could be more positive.

cheers and great week my friend.

steve






Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: Nick B on October 26, 2021, 05:39:47 PM
This is great stuff  :thumb:  To what extent I could determine some of the very small changes being described here, I don’t know, but it sure would be fun trying to find out…

What would also be fun is to have is a CD of recorded music/sounds that would allow comparison of different caps, resistors, types and purity of wire, etc. Don’t know if that’s doable or that I’ve seen something like that, but it would be a great companion disc to have.

The brighness, the clarity, attack times seem easily discernable. However, hearing fatigue will set in, that will affect your ability to discern, if listening to the same selections over and over at one sitting. The quality of the recordings vary quite considerably.

Others have attempted and written capacitor comparison articles, but I am not sure if that is what you mean. Anyway, those articles are less than worthless when it comes to how accurate is the capacitor itself. That is because they either don't know, or they don't do the work necessary to perform those experiments.

Actual, accurate testing requires multiple sources, multiple setups, highest quality selections, more than one testing  method, takes a long long long long time, (may wish to quit, sick of recordings) to make sure one's conclusions are correct in absolute terms.

When I was young I performed the research from scratch, but today I don't think I could. Just very complicated, time consuming, and fatiguing.

I am sorry to report Nick, that there is no way of easily scientifically test a capacitor, or resistor. I wish I could be more positive.

cheers and great week my friend.

steve

Thanks for the explanation, Steve. I was just wondering if there was a different/easier methodology to accomplish the testing. My recollection about the Van Alstine ABX Comparator got me thinking.. 
Ultimately, I will just continue to rely on the opinions of members here and reviewers whose opinions I’ve come to trust and rely on.
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on October 26, 2021, 08:31:56 PM
This is great stuff  :thumb:  To what extent I could determine some of the very small changes being described here, I don’t know, but it sure would be fun trying to find out…

What would also be fun is to have is a CD of recorded music/sounds that would allow comparison of different caps, resistors, types and purity of wire, etc. Don’t know if that’s doable or that I’ve seen something like that, but it would be a great companion disc to have.

The brighness, the clarity, attack times seem easily discernable. However, hearing fatigue will set in, that will affect your ability to discern, if listening to the same selections over and over at one sitting. The quality of the recordings vary quite considerably.

Others have attempted and written capacitor comparison articles, but I am not sure if that is what you mean. Anyway, those articles are less than worthless when it comes to how accurate is the capacitor itself. That is because they either don't know, or they don't do the work necessary to perform those experiments.

Actual, accurate testing requires multiple sources, multiple setups, highest quality selections, more than one testing  method, takes a long long long long time, (may wish to quit, sick of recordings) to make sure one's conclusions are correct in absolute terms.

When I was young I performed the research from scratch, but today I don't think I could. Just very complicated, time consuming, and fatiguing.

I am sorry to report Nick, that there is no way of easily scientifically test a capacitor, or resistor. I wish I could be more positive.

cheers and great week my friend.

steve

Thanks for the explanation, Steve. I was just wondering if there was a different/easier methodology to accomplish the testing. My recollection about the Van Alstine ABX Comparator got me thinking.. 
Ultimately, I will just continue to rely on the opinions of members here and reviewers whose opinions I’ve come to trust and rely on.

Please be careful as abx (along with typical dbt testing addressing only sight as a confound variable) is clearly unreliable. If all the confound variables are not properly addressed, the input data will be compromised, thus the
calculated confidence test result is unreliable.

Others can claim the testing is repeatable over and over with the same results/conclusions, thus accurate. Making mistake after mistake with the input data does not produce honest conclusions. Unreliable times repeated unreliable equals unreliable, not reliable.

A quick question for the general public if I may. In a typical room, there are bass increasing modes and bass decreasing modes. How does one obtain a 95% confidence conclusion when statistically one half of a group is in the bass increasing modes while the other half of the group is in the bass decreasing modes?

There is a second and third abx tester that I am aware of. They both use ordinary (often cheap) parts and at least one uses solder, switch(es), an ic chip, low pass filter (blocks higher frequencies) directly in the signal path. As an example, price differential is often a few cents to over ten dollars for one resistor.

An interesting paradox indeed. The abx/dbt promoters claim/assume (a bias) that all parts, including the ordinary, questionable parts, sound the same and don't deteriorate the sonic quality. The question is, how can one use the questionable parts in abx comparators to "prove" the questionable parts are accurate. Questionable parts to test the questionable part(s). Does anyone not see a problem? Yet abx comparitors are advertised as being scientific.

Does just one part interfere with the sonic quality? As an example, when I was designing my monoblocks, I soldered a capacitor in a circuit to increase the fullness. I then decided to install a silver coin contact switch to add or subtract this capacitor to the circuit. This gave some versatility in the real world.

However, when I used the silver contact switch and connected the capacitor, the sound actually got leaner/thinner, just the opposite of it being soldered in. The listening testing occurred over months. Obviously I exchanged out the silver contact switch and the sound got fuller, which it was designed for and the circuit worked properly. Physics and other data are important.

cheers and all the best.

steve

ps. I hope my modified post is simpler and easier to understand.
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on March 06, 2022, 09:33:35 AM
The latest update to my system; I am checking to see if I can tweak my upgraded dac
for just a touch more realism, naturalness, focus in the backround. I was able to
get a touch more out of it, and still continuing research. To put so far into perspective; I have not
experienced this level of “live experience” in any other system in all the decades of shows,
homes etc, at any price.

The journey is much more difficult than one might think. Designing a limited range
system with “magic midrange” might seem good and simple. I have to ask the question, if it
were that easy, why have the seemingly unlimited number of brands?

So what do we have with a limited bandwidth system? Well, let’s go to a concert and minimize
some of the bass, the highs, if classical then high violins, piccolos, and manipulate the hall
backround as well. So we are not really at the venue are we.

Talk to the higher level manufacturers, and they will tell you it is those lowest and highest
octaves that are so difficult to properly design and execute. With the "magic midrange" and
both extremes, we can make breath taking, jaw dropping music.

This experiment is about, recreating the live experience. However, there is a second
reason, as I have stated in an earlier post.

That second reason is to see if it is possible to design perfection using newly manufactured
tubes, tubes at a reasonable price. (Forget solid state with the inherent limitations.) The answer
is a resounding YES. In fact, many if not most NOS or new tubes won’t work properly. I was able to use
all JJ tubes for the project as well as bin stocked Wing C KT88s and 6550 output tubes. But one cannot just
throw a circuit together and expect the tubes to sound great.

Think of all the money one would save using new tubes in a design, vs nos tubes costing $xxx.99
 
I am still testing and performing very minor tweaking of outside components in my system,
DAC, Wire, my test Speakers, and might even test some other outside components.
 
Some time ago I was able to compare a 4 grand lampizator to my upgraded dac and the
lampizator sounded just slightly wider, but the same in other respects. I have compared an
entry level Denafrips and although it sounded good, my upgraded dac was clearly superior.

I can adjust my speakers (2 controls) for using youtube premium, redbook, or hi rez.

Stay tuned for more.

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: Nick B on March 06, 2022, 01:33:57 PM
The latest update to my system; I am checking to see if I can tweak my upgraded dac
for just a touch more realism, naturalness, focus in the backround. I was able to
get a touch more out of it, and still continuing research. To put so far into perspective; I have not
experienced this level of “live experience” in any other system in all the decades of shows,
homes etc, at any price.

The journey is much more difficult than one might think. Designing a limited range
system with “magic midrange” might seem good and simple. I have to ask the question, if it
were that easy, why have the seemingly unlimited number of brands?

So what do we have with a limited bandwidth system? Well, let’s go to a concert and minimize
some of the bass, the highs, if classical then high violins, piccolos, and manipulate the hall
backround as well. So we are not really at the venue are we.

Talk to the higher level manufacturers, and they will tell you it is those lowest and highest
octaves that are so difficult to properly design and execute. With the "magic midrange" and
both extremes, we can make breath taking, jaw dropping music. (Actually, the magic midrange is
not accurate.)

This experiment is about, recreating the live experience. However, there is a second
reason, as I have stated in an earlier post.

That second reason is to see if it is possible to design perfection using newly manufactured
tubes, tubes at a reasonable price. (Forget solid state with the inherent limitations.) The answer
is a resounding YES. In fact, many if not most NOS or new tubes won’t work properly. I was able to use
the JJ tubes for the project as well as bin stocked Wing C KT88s and 6550s. But one cannot just throw a
circuit together and expect the tubes to sound great.
 
I am still testing and performing very minor tweaking of outside components in my system,
and might even test some other outside components.
 
Some time ago I was able to compare a 4 grand lampizator to my upgraded dac and the
lampizator sounded just slightly wider, but no better in any other aspect. I have compared an
entry level Denafrips and although it sounded good, my upgraded dac was clearly superior.

I can adjust my speakers (2 controls) for using youtube premium, redbook, or hi rez. I generally setup
for youtube pre since there are so many many selections, and  the music is better than any other
system I have auditioned, whether using redbook, high rez, or turntable.

Stay tuned for more.

steve

Steve,
You are trying to squeeze even more out of your $99? Modi??  I’m glad you are! Very interesting if you can do it. I believe you have spent maybe $400 to $500  in this dac  project. It would be rather amazing to get better performance than a $4000 Lampi.
Pls keep us posted
Nick
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: dflee on March 06, 2022, 04:26:02 PM
Steve:
You are one amazing dude.  I am amazed at what you do. It would drive me crazy to attempt to do the work you do on the equipment. Really enjoy reading about it.
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: rollo on March 09, 2022, 01:18:37 PM
  Steve Youtube has better sonics ?? That is very interesting to hear that.

charles
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on March 09, 2022, 08:15:08 PM
I think I can answer Nick's, Don's, and Charles's comments and questions in this post.

A few things most already know. But some do not.

1. It has a DAC chip.

2. It  has a following analog chip for gain of about 2 times, or about 6db.

3. The analog chip has no markings/labels.

4. There is no re clocking in this little dac, thus a good usb cable is necessary. (The supra usb cable turned out to be pretty descent.)

5. The DAC chip includes both digital and analog circuitry with two power inputs, one for digital and the other for the analog sections. The one for analog handles both channels. I have no idea of how many transistors are incorporated
in the analog section of the chip. We also have X number of solid state resistors and capacitors (silicon types) within the analog section.

Fortunately, Schiit did a wonderful job with the digital part or I would not have gotten the resultant superior quality of my upgrade. However, the analog section is a quite different matter. But then for the $99.00 price point set, what should one expect, not faulting the company at all; they wanted to reach a certain market. Nothing wrong with that.

There is nothing to be done with the analog section of the DAC chip. I have not spent a ton of time on this DAC, no schematic. So I have left the analog chip connected.

One of the faults I often see in players/dacs is the power supply simply using electrolytic capacitors and typical solid state voltage regulators. Both degrade the sound. However, using poly caps takes a huge amount of room. I used a 17" by 10" by 3" chassis for all the parts in my upgrade. I used a variety from my parts bin from yesteryear. Is it possible to improve further? Maybe, but I need to investigate not assume for that possible ounce.

Maybe I will tweak a little more on the DAC if I can get a schematic. But right now I don't see why.

---------

Charles, I rewrote the last paragraph of my last post to be clearer. What I am saying is that even though I mainly use Youtube premium (many more selections), the sound is more natural, transparent, dynamic etc etc than any other audio system I have ever auditioned over the decades, and those systems used redbook/high rez, or turntable and cost xxxx. (I can use redbook or high rez, even turntable as well, but you tube has so many more selections.)

What I found, as a result of my decades of research is how far off my initial designs were 40 years ago (and other stereo designs to this day) are from accurate. I initially fell into the same trap as others, that solving a few
equations is enough, but it is far from true. From 1980 on I learned a lot.

Another major factor is the distorted history of ancient designs becoming so propagated, as to become "law".
The problem is one never sees and understands the inherent flaws of those ancient designs. How many times
has one seen the inherent flaws of any design explained? The next question becomes how does one overcome
decades of misinformation by those not understanding all the science required, yet claiming expertise. Of course,
there are obvious conflicts of interest involved.

I have mentioned that solving a few equations won't produce an accurate/truly natural sounding component..
The paradigm of what is considered "superior" sound quality was based on inherently flawed designs across the decades, with little understanding of the science.

-------

Here is another question I have. If the older electronic designs/systems are so good, then why are small speaker enclosures being pushed with high power SS amps, instead of sticking with large speaker enclosures? (My large enclosures are only 11" wide but still ~4.5 cubic feet total volume.) Is space the only answer?

I hope this has helped in understanding.

Cheers

steve

Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: rollo on March 10, 2022, 12:13:30 PM
  Always a pleasure learning from you.
charles
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on April 06, 2022, 07:23:12 PM
Thanks Charles. I try to pass important information on, as long as it does not reveal classified company secrets. (I learned that from all the politicians and company execs over the decades.  :rofl:)

I have found that as I improve the system using redbook, tidal, that YouTube premium also improves. Got to
give the public some selections that the public can test, adjust, and hopefully help their systems.

Yes, there can be "touch ups" when switching to YT Premium, but there are so many selections that the others just don't have available but the public loves to listen to. I am hoping that the public sees what is possible in the lab and that stereo improvement is still possible in this day and age.

By the way, my preamplifiers and monoblock amplifier design were manufactured in the real world,
and did not use NOS tubes, just modern tubes. The speaker was too cumbersome to move around
or test at other venues.

Anyone wish to come by for an audition, just give a shout.

cheers and thanks again.

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on April 28, 2022, 12:13:05 PM
A tidbit (for diyers) on your audio quest is the elimination of electrolytic capacitors as decoupling capacitors. Decoupling
capacitors are capacitors that connect to the plate resistor (or collector/drain resistor in solid state
devices) and ground.

In the schematic below, the C1 capacitor connected between RL plate resistor and ground. Decoupling capacitors are
in nearly every stage of the source, preamp, and amplifier.

Even one electrolytic capacitor in your system will cause loss of audio quality, the realism, naturalness of the music.
If all the electrolytic decoupling capacitors were eliminated, that last one makes the most difference. As one adds more electrolytic decoupling capacitors, the effect is less but still perceived. A typical audio system could have up to a dozen or more. That is a lot of degradation to the musical quality.

Unfortunately, electrolytics are generally necessary in the main high voltage power supply for output stages due to the high capacitance (ufd) needed; especially in solid stage amps.

The one obvious hang up is a polypropylene cap's physical size.

But if realism, naturalness is your goal, ridding of electrolytic decoupling capacitors is a positive.

cheers

steve


Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: steve on June 30, 2022, 09:42:31 AM
Doing a little cleaning out my favorites, I found this string from AC forum.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=114637.0

I found a tiny tweak in the up graded DAC's power supply, just a little cleaner in the upper bass, lower midrange.

I know, I know, I performed a tweak. Well, all I can say is that it was extremely minor.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is finally finished
Post by: Nick B on June 30, 2022, 04:24:15 PM
Doing a little cleaning out my favorites, I found this string from AC forum.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=114637.0

I found a tiny tweak in the up graded DAC's power supply, just a little cleaner in the upper bass, lower midrange.

I know, I know, I performed a tweak. Well, all I can say is that it was extremely minor.

cheers

steve

Hi Steve,

Audiophiles  don’t forget great products. I imagine you occasionally get in an 11a or a 10a to replace caps or do some other maintenance. As to your dac, I’m assuming you are still using the Schiit Modi 2?
Title: Re: I think my System is almost finally finished
Post by: steve on July 01, 2022, 12:56:27 PM
Doing a little cleaning out my favorites, I found this string from AC forum.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=114637.0

I found a tiny tweak in the up graded DAC's power supply, just a little cleaner in the upper bass, lower midrange.

I know, I know, I performed a tweak. Well, all I can say is that it was extremely minor.

cheers

steve

Hi Steve,

Audiophiles  don’t forget great products. I imagine you occasionally get in an 11a or a 10a to replace caps or do some other maintenance. As to your dac, I’m assuming you are still using the Schiit Modi 2?

Hi Nick,

To answer your last question first, yes I am still using the hugely upgrade Modi 2. I adjusted the
power supply uf total just a hair as well as the voltage rating for one cap. What is sometimes irking
is that the shape and voltage rating of a cap affects the sonics. Of course higher voltage rating,
more conductor area, more resistance involved.

I have 16 smaller poly caps in parallel in the power supply for the analog chip gain stage. For
another tweak, I could change the other analog supply, with 5 caps, and go with a bunch of smaller
and see what happens.

I just can't stop tinkering for that final gram of improvement, and I thought I could go no farther when I
started this string. The title of this string makes me a hypocrite, so I changed the title to almost finally
finished.

Concerning your first comment, actually no 10As have come for at least a decade or more. The last one I
recall working on had the gold plating of a tube socket filament pin separate, causing an intermittent tube
filament from heating.

I have had two 11As that needed repair a very long time ago. The first was on the initial tour
(~17 years ago?), when a Mills military grade resistor became noisy. The second 11A, in Europe,
an intermittent audio output relay (in parallel) that sometimes refused to open after 45 seconds.

I have tinkered around, on my own 11A, with switching the initial electrolytic capacitor to poly, so it will
last forever (except for lightning strike). This does not affect the sonics because I use a hefty 5 filter
stages after it. I attribute the longevity for two reasons.

1. The caps have very little surge and repetitive peak currents; far far below max rated. Just a few ma.
(milliamps).

2. The operational temperature is just a few degrees F above room temp. I believe the general rule of
thumb is that for every 20 degrees F below max rated temperature by the manufacturer, one can double
the hours of useful life. By the way, the hours rating by manufacturer is at both maximum temperature and
maximum ripple current. Peak current is also minimal.

Just calculating by temperature, I arrived at 90,000 hours. Since the ripple current in the 10A/11A is just
a few ma., the life should be much longer.

One customer, I replaced a couple of resistors to Vishay naked Bulk foil after I tested them in my 11A.
Vishays have at least 20db less noise than other metal film resistors.

If I have missed something, please correct me, but I don't think so.

Cheers and happy 4th Nick and Gents.

steve


Title: Re: I think my System is almost finally finished
Post by: Nick B on July 01, 2022, 10:29:50 PM
Doing a little cleaning out my favorites, I found this string from AC forum.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=114637.0

I found a tiny tweak in the up graded DAC's power supply, just a little cleaner in the upper bass, lower midrange.

I know, I know, I performed a tweak. Well, all I can say is that it was extremely minor.

cheers

steve

Hi Steve,

Audiophiles  don’t forget great products. I imagine you occasionally get in an 11a or a 10a to replace caps or do some other maintenance. As to your dac, I’m assuming you are still using the Schiit Modi 2?

Hi Nick,

To answer your last question first, yes I am still using it. I adjusted the power supply uf total just a hair
as well as the voltage rating for one cap. What is sometimes irking is that the shape and voltage rating
of a cap affects the sonics. Of course higher voltage rating, more conductor area, more resistance involved.

I have 16 smaller poly caps in parallel in the power supply for the analog chip gain stage. For
another tweak, I could change the other analog supply, with 5 caps, and go with a bunch of smaller
and see what happens.

I just can't stop tinkering for that final gram of improvement, and I thought I could go no farther when I
started this string. The title of this string makes me a hypocrite. I will change the title to almost finally finished.

Concerning your first comment, actually no 10As have come for a decade or more. The last one I recall
working on had the gold plating of a tube socket filament pin separate, causing an intermittent tube
filament heating.

I have had two 11As that needed repair. The first was on the initial tour (~17 years ago?), when a Mills military
grade resistor became noisy. The second 11A, in Europe, an intermittent audio output relay (in parallel) that
sometimes refused to open after 45 seconds, thus the output remained shorted to ground. I believe that was
a decade, give or take, ago.?

I have tinkered around, on my own 11A, with switching the initial electrolytic capacitor to poly, so it will
last forever. This does not affect the sonics because I use a hefty 5 filter stages after it. I checked the
caps in the drawer, and in use, and after 20 years they are still measuring near perfect. I can only
attribute such to two reasons.

1. The caps have very little surge and repetitive peak currents; far far below max rated. Just a few ma.

2. The operational temperature is just a few degrees F above room temp. I believe the general rule of
thumb is that for every 20 degrees F below max rated temperature by the manufacturer, one can double
the hours of useful life. The hours rating by manufacturer is at max temperature and ripple current.

Just calculating by temperature, I arrived at 90,000 hours. Since the ripple current in the 10A/11A is just
a few ma., the life should be much higher.

One customer, I replaced a couple of resistors to Vishay naked Bulk foil after I tested them in my 11A.
I think they are a little bit better than originals. No one else has contacted me for the Vishays.

If I have missed something, please correct me, but I don't think so.

Cheers and happy 4th Nick and Gents.

steve


Hi Steve,

Glad that Modi is sounding excellent. I remember when Jeff at Sonic Craft on AC was raving about the performance of a Bifrost after some mods. I’m surprised you didn’t have a number of customers asking you to make changes over the years.  We all get curious over time if a piece of equipment can be made to sound better. I am also curious if a 10a unit can be brought up to the specs of an 11a and has anyone requested that.

As to the yearning to keep tinkering and improving, that’s what this hobby is all about!  :thumb:
Title: Re: I think my System is almost finally finished
Post by: steve on July 02, 2022, 08:56:36 PM
Doing a little cleaning out my favorites, I found this string from AC forum.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=114637.0

I found a tiny tweak in the up graded DAC's power supply, just a little cleaner in the upper bass, lower midrange.

I know, I know, I performed a tweak. Well, all I can say is that it was extremely minor.

cheers

steve

Hi Steve,

Audiophiles  don’t forget great products. I imagine you occasionally get in an 11a or a 10a to replace caps or do some other maintenance. As to your dac, I’m assuming you are still using the Schiit Modi 2?

Hi Nick,

To answer your last question first, yes I am still using it. I adjusted the power supply uf total just a hair
as well as the voltage rating for one cap. What is sometimes irking is that the shape and voltage rating
of a cap affects the sonics. Of course higher voltage rating, more conductor area, more resistance involved.

I have 16 smaller poly caps in parallel in the power supply for the analog chip gain stage. For
another tweak, I could change the other analog supply, with 5 caps, and go with a bunch of smaller
and see what happens.

I just can't stop tinkering for that final gram of improvement, and I thought I could go no farther when I
started this string. The title of this string makes me a hypocrite. I will change the title to almost finally finished.

Concerning your first comment, actually no 10As have come for a decade or more. The last one I recall
working on had the gold plating of a tube socket filament pin separate, causing an intermittent tube
filament heating.

I have had two 11As that needed repair. The first was on the initial tour (~17 years ago?), when a Mills military
grade resistor became noisy. The second 11A, in Europe, an intermittent audio output relay (in parallel) that
sometimes refused to open after 45 seconds, thus the output remained shorted to ground. I believe that was
a decade, give or take, ago.?

I have tinkered around, on my own 11A, with switching the initial electrolytic capacitor to poly, so it will
last forever. This does not affect the sonics because I use a hefty 5 filter stages after it. I checked the
caps in the drawer, and in use, and after 20 years they are still measuring near perfect. I can only
attribute such to two reasons.

1. The caps have very little surge and repetitive peak currents; far far below max rated. Just a few ma.

2. The operational temperature is just a few degrees F above room temp. I believe the general rule of
thumb is that for every 20 degrees F below max rated temperature by the manufacturer, one can double
the hours of useful life. The hours rating by manufacturer is at max temperature and ripple current.

Just calculating by temperature, I arrived at 90,000 hours. Since the ripple current in the 10A/11A is just
a few ma., the life should be much higher.

One customer, I replaced a couple of resistors to Vishay naked Bulk foil after I tested them in my 11A.
I think they are a little bit better than originals. No one else has contacted me for the Vishays.

If I have missed something, please correct me, but I don't think so.

Cheers and happy 4th Nick and Gents.

steve


Hi Steve,

Glad that Modi is sounding excellent. I remember when Jeff at Sonic Craft on AC was raving about the performance of a Bifrost after some mods. I’m surprised you didn’t have a number of customers asking you to make changes over the years.  We all get curious over time if a piece of equipment can be made to sound better. I am also curious if a 10a unit can be brought up to the specs of an 11a and has anyone requested that.

As to the yearning to keep tinkering and improving, that’s what this hobby is all about!  :thumb:

Hi Nick,

Well, I suppose a tiny tweak is not too bad.

It took some major upgrading but the results were worth while, and cost was reasonable. I had the vast
majority of parts in the stock bin. In its stock form, the Modi 2 was quite poor. Fortunately, the problems
were in the analog sections.

I posted 'wanted to purchase Modi 2s' on several forums but not one response, so evidently no one
has one,,, or has one for sale???

No way to upgrade the 10A to the 11A; needs a completely different board.

I have been retired for some 10 years, and would not mind selling my designs, including the amps,
phono stage. I, of course, would teach them the advanced science necessary for their
understanding/knowledge. There is much more involved than one thinks, or as mentioned many
times, a few equations. And the antique designs bantied about will never get one there.

Cheers and great 4th.

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is almost finally finished
Post by: Nick B on July 02, 2022, 11:06:01 PM
Doing a little cleaning out my favorites, I found this string from AC forum.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=114637.0

I found a tiny tweak in the up graded DAC's power supply, just a little cleaner in the upper bass, lower midrange.

I know, I know, I performed a tweak. Well, all I can say is that it was extremely minor.

cheers

steve

Hi Steve,

Audiophiles  don’t forget great products. I imagine you occasionally get in an 11a or a 10a to replace caps or do some other maintenance. As to your dac, I’m assuming you are still using the Schiit Modi 2?

Hi Nick,

To answer your last question first, yes I am still using it. I adjusted the power supply uf total just a hair
as well as the voltage rating for one cap. What is sometimes irking is that the shape and voltage rating
of a cap affects the sonics. Of course higher voltage rating, more conductor area, more resistance involved.

I have 16 smaller poly caps in parallel in the power supply for the analog chip gain stage. For
another tweak, I could change the other analog supply, with 5 caps, and go with a bunch of smaller
and see what happens.

I just can't stop tinkering for that final gram of improvement, and I thought I could go no farther when I
started this string. The title of this string makes me a hypocrite. I will change the title to almost finally finished.

Concerning your first comment, actually no 10As have come for a decade or more. The last one I recall
working on had the gold plating of a tube socket filament pin separate, causing an intermittent tube
filament heating.

I have had two 11As that needed repair. The first was on the initial tour (~17 years ago?), when a Mills military
grade resistor became noisy. The second 11A, in Europe, an intermittent audio output relay (in parallel) that
sometimes refused to open after 45 seconds, thus the output remained shorted to ground. I believe that was
a decade, give or take, ago.?

I have tinkered around, on my own 11A, with switching the initial electrolytic capacitor to poly, so it will
last forever. This does not affect the sonics because I use a hefty 5 filter stages after it. I checked the
caps in the drawer, and in use, and after 20 years they are still measuring near perfect. I can only
attribute such to two reasons.

1. The caps have very little surge and repetitive peak currents; far far below max rated. Just a few ma.

2. The operational temperature is just a few degrees F above room temp. I believe the general rule of
thumb is that for every 20 degrees F below max rated temperature by the manufacturer, one can double
the hours of useful life. The hours rating by manufacturer is at max temperature and ripple current.

Just calculating by temperature, I arrived at 90,000 hours. Since the ripple current in the 10A/11A is just
a few ma., the life should be much higher.

One customer, I replaced a couple of resistors to Vishay naked Bulk foil after I tested them in my 11A.
I think they are a little bit better than originals. No one else has contacted me for the Vishays.

If I have missed something, please correct me, but I don't think so.

Cheers and happy 4th Nick and Gents.

steve


Hi Steve,

Glad that Modi is sounding excellent. I remember when Jeff at Sonic Craft on AC was raving about the performance of a Bifrost after some mods. I’m surprised you didn’t have a number of customers asking you to make changes over the years.  We all get curious over time if a piece of equipment can be made to sound better. I am also curious if a 10a unit can be brought up to the specs of an 11a and has anyone requested that.

As to the yearning to keep tinkering and improving, that’s what this hobby is all about!  :thumb:

Hi Nick,

Well, I suppose a tiny tweak is not too bad.

It took some major upgrading but Modi 2 is worth it. I had the vast majority of parts in the stock bin.
I posted 'wanted to purchase Modi 2s' on several forums but not one response, so evidently no one
has one,,, or for sale???

No way to upgrade the 10A to the 11A. Needs a completely different board.

I would not mind selling my designs, including the amps, phono stage, athough one can build the different
models from my schematics, board, parts etc. I, of course, would teach them the advanced science
necessary for their understanding/knowledge. There is much more involved than one thinks, or as
mentioned many times, a few equations.

Cheers and great 4th.

steve

Hi Steve.

Thanks for answering the questions about the preamps to satisfy my curiosity. You did an amazing job with that Modi 2 and liked it better than my border patrol dac. I had Gary Dews install the Jupiter beeswax caps and I sure like the sound. But I think in-spite of that, your Modi would still likely perform a bit better. I do like the border patrol a lot because of its engaging and natural presentation….  My Supratek Chardonnay preamp resolves so beautifully and I’m very pleased it brings out the best in the border patrol.
Title: Re: I think my System is almost finally finished
Post by: steve on July 03, 2022, 06:28:59 PM
Doing a little cleaning out my favorites, I found this string from AC forum.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=114637.0

I found a tiny tweak in the up graded DAC's power supply, just a little cleaner in the upper bass, lower midrange.

I know, I know, I performed a tweak. Well, all I can say is that it was extremely minor.

cheers

steve

Hi Steve,

Audiophiles  don’t forget great products. I imagine you occasionally get in an 11a or a 10a to replace caps or do some other maintenance. As to your dac, I’m assuming you are still using the Schiit Modi 2?

Hi Nick,

To answer your last question first, yes I am still using it. I adjusted the power supply uf total just a hair
as well as the voltage rating for one cap. What is sometimes irking is that the shape and voltage rating
of a cap affects the sonics. Of course higher voltage rating, more conductor area, more resistance involved.

I have 16 smaller poly caps in parallel in the power supply for the analog chip gain stage. For
another tweak, I could change the other analog supply, with 5 caps, and go with a bunch of smaller
and see what happens.

I just can't stop tinkering for that final gram of improvement, and I thought I could go no farther when I
started this string. The title of this string makes me a hypocrite. I will change the title to almost finally finished.

Concerning your first comment, actually no 10As have come for a decade or more. The last one I recall
working on had the gold plating of a tube socket filament pin separate, causing an intermittent tube
filament heating.

I have had two 11As that needed repair. The first was on the initial tour (~17 years ago?), when a Mills military
grade resistor became noisy. The second 11A, in Europe, an intermittent audio output relay (in parallel) that
sometimes refused to open after 45 seconds, thus the output remained shorted to ground. I believe that was
a decade, give or take, ago.?

I have tinkered around, on my own 11A, with switching the initial electrolytic capacitor to poly, so it will
last forever. This does not affect the sonics because I use a hefty 5 filter stages after it. I checked the
caps in the drawer, and in use, and after 20 years they are still measuring near perfect. I can only
attribute such to two reasons.

1. The caps have very little surge and repetitive peak currents; far far below max rated. Just a few ma.

2. The operational temperature is just a few degrees F above room temp. I believe the general rule of
thumb is that for every 20 degrees F below max rated temperature by the manufacturer, one can double
the hours of useful life. The hours rating by manufacturer is at max temperature and ripple current.

Just calculating by temperature, I arrived at 90,000 hours. Since the ripple current in the 10A/11A is just
a few ma., the life should be much higher.

One customer, I replaced a couple of resistors to Vishay naked Bulk foil after I tested them in my 11A.
I think they are a little bit better than originals. No one else has contacted me for the Vishays.

If I have missed something, please correct me, but I don't think so.

Cheers and happy 4th Nick and Gents.

steve


Hi Steve,

Glad that Modi is sounding excellent. I remember when Jeff at Sonic Craft on AC was raving about the performance of a Bifrost after some mods. I’m surprised you didn’t have a number of customers asking you to make changes over the years.  We all get curious over time if a piece of equipment can be made to sound better. I am also curious if a 10a unit can be brought up to the specs of an 11a and has anyone requested that.

As to the yearning to keep tinkering and improving, that’s what this hobby is all about!  :thumb:

Hi Nick,

Well, I suppose a tiny tweak is not too bad.

It took some major upgrading but Modi 2 is worth it. I had the vast majority of parts in the stock bin.
I posted 'wanted to purchase Modi 2s' on several forums but not one response, so evidently no one
has one,,, or for sale???

No way to upgrade the 10A to the 11A. Needs a completely different board.

I would not mind selling my designs, including the amps, phono stage, athough one can build the different
models from my schematics, board, parts etc. I, of course, would teach them the advanced science
necessary for their understanding/knowledge. There is much more involved than one thinks, or as
mentioned many times, a few equations.

Cheers and great 4th.

steve

Hi Steve.

Thanks for answering the questions about the preamps to satisfy my curiosity. You did an amazing job with that Modi 2 and liked it better than my border patrol dac. I had Gary Dews install the Jupiter beeswax caps and I sure like the sound. But I think in-spite of that, your Modi would still likely perform a bit better. I do like the border patrol a lot because of its engaging and natural presentation….  My Supratek Chardonnay preamp resolves so beautifully and I’m very pleased it brings out the best in the border patrol.

Hi Nick,

The Border Patrol that I tested is pretty darn good. No slouch that is for sure.
I remember I preferred the SS rectification with the box physically warmed up to be its most accurate,
natural.

For my system, I have the upgraded Modi 2 switched to "E", 24/192. I have improved the sound since it
was compared to the $4500 Lampizator and Border Patrol. Too bad music lovers live so far away.

I have come to the general conclusion that the main difference between DACs is in the analog sections.

This includes:

1. the digital to analog chip, analog section power source  (The digital section has a separate power source.)

2. the external analog gain stage of ~2 (6db). (Whether SS or tube, why have it and its associated parts.)

3. the power supply to the external gain stage

Great 4th, and to honor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Omd9_FJnerY

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is almost finally finished
Post by: Nick B on July 03, 2022, 09:44:47 PM
Thank you Steve. That is a very moving Fourth of July tribute.
https://youtu.be/Omd9_FJnerY
Title: Re: I think my System is almost finally finished
Post by: steve on July 21, 2022, 07:09:48 AM
Another tidbit is to lose the inductor if one can, especially when next to the decoupling capacitor.
Why? Because there is another filter capacitor on the other side of the inductor.

With the inductor in said circuit, that decoupling capacitor is not what you think it is.

The reactance of the inductor,  is determined by   XL = 2pi times F times L.

2pi is 6.28
F is frequency
L is inductance in henries

As one can see, as the frequency increases, the inductance increases.
The result is the isolation between the before and after filter capacitors varies with frequency.

One has two reactive filter capacitors with a reactive inductor/choke in between. When reactive
parts mix, nothing remains the same. It gets really messy.

However, a good power resistor provides constant isolation regardless of audio frequency.
(Better to have non inductive resistor to behave better at high frequencies.)

If that were not bad enough, it gets worse. The inductor has dc winding resistance. Below is
a circuit/photo showing how the inductive reactance and dc resistance deviate the frequency
response of a simple inductive/resistor circuit.

Instead of a straight diagonal line, it is curved. So the isolation between filter capacitors is
also curved vs frequency.

Simply put, the combination of inductance and dc resistance is not good.
(Unfortunately, SET amps need the inductors to minimize hum while keeping voltage losses to
a minimum. PP type amplifiers have rejection properties inherent to minimize hum.)

Any change in musical information is defined as distortion.

If possible, as a test, bypass the inductor with a power resistor equal to the
winding resistance, to keep the DC voltage constant and isolation between capacitors
constant vs frequency. (Hopefully the hum will be within limits.)

Cheers

steve

ps. I have edited several previous posts for clarity and more info.
 
Title: Re: I think my System is almost finally finished
Post by: steve on October 29, 2022, 08:51:44 PM
I found an upgrade to my STD 305M table and SME lll arm setup. The SME has two holes between
the cartridge mounting holes, and a single null point. I had purchased an SME lll protractor and been using it.

I just found out that a Stevenson protractor with 2 null points at 60mm and 117mm, from Vinyl Engine,
clearly out performed the SME protractor.

Hope this helps others.

steve
 
Title: Re: I think my System is almost finally finished
Post by: steve on November 28, 2022, 08:43:09 AM
glad to hear that, 3 years after you started this thread, you're still not finished.  😉

holly hippodaze,

doug s.

If one knew what is involved with the entire stereo project, it is mind boggling.
If I knew what would be involved, what I know today, I would have never started.  However, the
results now are extremely satisfying.

I started when I heard a friend's stereo system back in ~1980 that was so bad I still find it difficult to
comprehend. 40 years later... per your thoughts.

One cannot use specialized listening tests to check input to output integrity of the source and
speakers as one can with the preamp, amp, and ics. (The specs one reads for components are close to
worthless in terms of actual input to output musical accuracy.) In otherwards, the instruments/voices
do not sound natural.

Once the preamp, amp, ics are proven to actually be accurate/natural (25 years), then one has to use
teeter/totter method to increase the integrity of the source, speaker, and speaker wires. I have worked
on the speakers alone for some 9 years; the result is masking is near zero, as a minute adjustment of
1 part in a million in a speaker crossover being heard. I cannot do much more with the room acoustics.

cheers

steve

Title: Re: I think my System is almost finally finished
Post by: GDHAL on November 28, 2022, 10:39:03 AM
I'll add to this thread by writing that nobody who's a serious audiophile is ever *finally* finished with their "system", until said individual is deceased.
Title: Re: I think my System is almost finally finished
Post by: steve on November 28, 2022, 03:22:05 PM
I'll add to this thread by writing that nobody who's a serious audiophile is ever *finally* finished with their "system", until said individual is deceased.

That is probably true for most everyone, but I am really super close to perfection in playback
quality under lab conditions, which virtually no one else will be able to accomplish. I wish others
could. Still, a few tidbits. 

With the upgraded dac, IF possible rid of the analog gain of 2 (6db) and check out.
That stage will almost certainly degrade the sound a little. However, with
no schematic, no analog chip part number, and with shaky hands, I will probably do more
damage than improvement, so I won't attempt to bypass the stage.
   
Possible speaker xover tweak/adjustment if All speaker wires were
Jenalabs 6N hook up wire vs partial Jenalab wires used.

None of my components use NOS tubes, none. I will say that my 11A line pre and
25ppt amp are the world standard for musical accuracy and naturalness. Pro Musica (Champaign,
Illinois) came fairly close to accurate/natural reproduction in the pre and amps they upgraded.

The main problem that I am encountering on my end is bumping up against inferior quality recording
equipment producing inferior quality music (which many fail to consider). At least half of all the electronics
from singer to listener is the recording equipment. If I had the finances and were younger, I would 
have designed and build a recording studio.

That is about it (stated just in case I forgot something).

cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is almost finally finished
Post by: gjm on December 13, 2022, 01:38:17 PM

The main problem that I am encountering on my end is bumping up against inferior quality recording
equipment producing inferior quality music (which many fail to consider). At least half of all the electronics
from singer to listener is the recording equipment. If I had the money and were younger, I would love
to design and build a world standard recording studio.

I can't comment on the quality of equipment used in recording (studios), but the quality of some recordings is quite dire. The 'loudness wars' may be over (are they?) but poor engineering, poor mastering, and where physical media is concerned, poor materials and poor manufacturing lead to an extremely unsatisfactory result.
Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: rollo on December 14, 2022, 09:08:59 AM
 We are slaves to the source being the medium we use to play back music. I cherish my great recordings. How about we start a list of great recordings in every Genre ??

charles
Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: Nick B on December 14, 2022, 10:53:29 AM
We are slaves to the source being the medium we use to play back music. I cherish my great recordings. How about we start a list of great recordings in every Genre ??

charles


Sounds like a great idea  :thumb:
Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: GDHAL on December 14, 2022, 11:27:08 AM
We are slaves to the source being the medium we use to play back music. I cherish my great recordings. How about we start a list of great recordings in every Genre ??

charles
Are you speaking about recordings that were recorded digitally, analog, professionally, unprofessionally, or however so?

As to the spirit of your post, this is why I stated in a different thread, regarding the voicing of one's system, that IMO the number two variable on the pecking order list of all things audio is the recording itself.

Best.

Hal
Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: steve on December 15, 2022, 05:16:24 PM
Every type of recording equipment has analog stages (unless digital to digital for sonic manipulation etc),
which must be carefully designed. The old style recording studio designs from the 40s and 50s are
antiquated and certainly in need of improvement.

Virtually all analog stages have electrolytic capacitors. Typical electrolytic type capacitors have DA
250 times higher than the better poly capacitors. Internal inductance is probably that high as well.
ESR is also typically higher.

I believe some recent recording equipment designs have improved some; the consoles I have
seen in the past have parts and design quality typical of $199.00 receivers. That is certainly not
a compliment.
However, we understand when creating a recording studio, the routing of the interior necessities,
and equipment can run up to several hundred thousands of dollars+.

Any recording equipment that I am aware of contains many electrolytic capacitors.

Components can use all Polypropylene capacitors in the direct signal path which includes the power
supplies, all parts highest quality, as well as completely separate power supplies, including
power transformers, for each stage's DC voltages.
This eliminates any musical signal from interfering and degrading the musical quality from other stages.
This is a minimum.             

Amplifiers can be monoblock for superior channel separation, to hear what is being
recorded. The preamplifier can be mirror channels, which can have excellent channel separation
when laid out properly.

I mention this because it can be done. It is not pie in the sky. This is just partially what is required
for any recording studio to be of the highest quality standards. The expense involved is considerable
to be sure. Cost may be a problem.

Cheers

steve








Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: rollo on December 16, 2022, 09:03:00 AM
 Hal any format. A great recording is a great recording. BTW Steve how did you implement the volume control ??? Last thread was removed.

charles
Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: GDHAL on December 16, 2022, 10:34:50 AM
Hal any format. A great recording is a great recording. BTW Steve how did you implement the volume control ??? Last thread was removed.

charles

Charles, you are most qualified of anyone on this forum to vouch for the quality of my digital recordings. Sorry folks. no analog here, been there, done that. To name a small (EDIT3: small as in .01%) portion of what I have that is the most pristine you could ever obtain (as of today given today's technology):
--------------------------

Grateful Dead - Europe '72 (50th Anniversary) (2022) Remastered LP [24-192]

50th Anniversary remaster version of the original EUROPE '72 album. This has been newly mastered by Grammy Award-winning engineer David Glasser with newly restored audio by Plangent Processes.
------------------------

Oh, and if you don't like any kind of "artificial" digital processing, I have *every* 24/96 Grateful Dead "Ultra Matrix Soundboards" shows *ever* released. If you don't think Grateful Dead are the pinnacle of where analog or digital recordings can go, google it.
------------------
Saint-Saens_Symphony_No3_24-96_2.0
The Symphony No. 3 in C minor Op. 78 was completed by Camille Saint-Saëns in 1886 at what was probably the artistic zenith of his career.

Digital: Weiss ADC2 Analog to Digital Converter
Mytek ADC192 Modified by Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio
Lynx AES16 used for digital I/O
Antelope Audio Isochrone OCX Master Clock
Weiss Saracon Sample Rate Conversion Software
Weiss POW-r Dithering Software
Analog: Studer 810 Reel to Reel with JRF Magnetics Custom Z Heads & Siltech wiring
Aria tape head pre-amp by ATR Services
Manley Tube Tape Pre-amps Modified by Fred Volz of Emotive Audio
Cables: Purist Audio Design, Pure Note, Siltech
Power Cords: Purist Audio Design, Essential Sound Products
Vibration Control: Symposium Acoustics Rollerblocks, Ultra platforms, Svelte shelves
Sonic Studio CD.1 Professional CD Burner using Mitsui Gold Archival CD's
---------------------
Nagra 70th Anniversary Collection (2022) [24-352.8]

NAGRA is on a course to become a major force in the world of vinyl. Having just launched their first-ever turntable - the "statement" level, Reference Anniversary turntable/tonearm system - they now follow with the production of The Nagra 70th Anniversary 45rpm double vinyl album. Mastered at 2xHD on Nagra equipment and cut at famed Bernie Grundman Mastering, the set is pure analog from analog master tapes. The LPs feature tracks from Bill Evans, Louis Armstrong, Monty Alexander and Buddy Tate along with some amazing audiophile tracks recorded on the legendary Nagra IV-S tape machine.

Release Date: October 7, 2022
-------------------------

My list goes on and on and on. The aforementioned will suffice for now.

 8)

Best.

Hal



Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: steve on December 16, 2022, 12:45:29 PM

As a suggestion, why don't we start another string if we are going to stray off subject into recording quality.

Thanks.   :)

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: GDHAL on December 16, 2022, 12:54:52 PM
not until you tell us how you can make the perfect playback gear when the recording quality is all over the map. ;)

doug s.

As a suggestion, why don't we start another string if we are going to stray off subject into recording quality.

Thanks.   :)

steve

Doug, thank you!! I love a sense of humor, especially when in good spirits. And, even more so when the question you pose is precisely the point!

Best.

Hal
Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: rollo on December 16, 2022, 01:27:58 PM
  Doug ain't no dummy.

charles
Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: steve on December 16, 2022, 02:19:17 PM
Steve how did you implement the volume control ??? Last thread was removed.

charles

Yes, that takes a lot of consideration due to the complexities involved Charles.

1. The volume contol resistance is the weak link, whether passive or directly into a gain stage within
the same inclosure (no interconnect cable needed).

2. By itself, the volume control will affect the highs, and lows if the source is capacitively coupled. A
passive is really not the way to go. It would be better to place the control inside the integrated
amplifier itself (if possible) so as to eliminate the interconnect cable (ic) and minimize the capacitance.

3. The volume control is generally placed to feed the gain stage. With this placement, and with most
tubes plate to grid capacitance (Miller capacitance is gain times this capacitance), this setup will be most
influential in determining the high frequency response. (Long ics with high capacitance will also affect
the high frequency response. See more below.

The plate resistance (Rp) and plate load resistance (RL) into the load will also affect the high frequency
response. (The output capacitor will determine most of the low frequency response.)

Example: Suppose we use a 6SN7 family tubes, 10k ohm RL, 8.5k ohm Rp. Parallel is 4.6k ohms.

With 250pf output load capacitance (ic + load input capacitance), we can expect to see  -0,75db at 550khz.
With 100k volume control, mid resistance, 6sn7 input, 40pf Miller capacitance,                 -0,73db, 550khz
With 25k volume control, mid resistance, 6sn7 input, 40pf Miller capacitance,                   -0,25db, 550khz

100k control, mid resistance, 40pf             -0,15db at 100khz
25k control, mid resistance, 40pf               -0,012db at 100khz

------------

6dj8 family tubes, 4.3k ohm RL, 3.3k ohm Rp, Parallel 1.86k ohms.

With 250pf output load capacitance (ic +load input capacitance),                                      -0,48db at 550khz.
With 100k volume control to 6dj8 input, mid resistance, 20pf Miller capacitance,               -0,5db
With 25k volume control to 6dj8 input, mid resistance, 20pf Miller Capacitance,                -0,08db

100k control, mid resistance, 20pf                    -0.045db  100khz
25k control, mid resistance, 20pf                      -0.003db     100khz

The deviations seem small, yet they are important.  When one considers most specifications are within +/- 0.1db at oly 20khz, +/- 0,1db means little.

4. Next, let’s consider adding a cathode follower etc to the wiper arm of the volume control to eliminate the  Miller effect consideration. There are different ways to consider, but each will add  complexity and will deteriorate the musical quality.

Suppose we add a cathode follower, or similar to lower the output impedance of the preamp. With 250pf output load, we have an incredible response to over 500,000hz (500khz). If we add more load capacitance, we are starting to approach a 0,001uf capacitor. But is that really desirable?

I hope this helps Charles, and others when considering a design.

----------

"not until you tell us how you can make the perfect playback gear when the recording quality is all over the map."

It is more desirable to enjoy the music with as many sonic faults, distortions, and colorations as possible.

Interesting philosophy.

I suppose if hard rock only, one would want to add as much/many distortions as possible.
 
But as 26 RCA engineers state, that is not high fidelity reproduction. (RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook)
This discussion/string is dealing with high fidelity reproduction.

My lab work over the decades deal with ridding the playback of its many sonic faults for a better, more
natural listening experience.

We have to start somewhere if we wish to improve the musical experience.
I have taken the steps to start with the playback.

Cheers

steve 
Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: steve on December 16, 2022, 02:23:02 PM
Gentlemen, this string is exclusively concerned play back accuracy.

I have considered and Playback should be the first place to start improvements, and then afterward,
the recording quality. But even in playback territory there are problems, as mentioned below.

There are some higher quality recordings, and improving playback will reveal
those recordings. Hopefully, those high quality recordings will set the standard for others to follow.
However........

I have seen what happens to superior playback parts/components over the last decades. Let's present
an example, capacitors. Due to improper testing methods, wrong values ufd, and using inferior quality testing components, the superior capacitors are discredited and become extinct.

Instead of excellent/accurate capacitors costing $20.00/each, the cost is now hundreds
and even thousands of dollars for each capacitor, whose accurate sonic quality we do not know.
All that has been accomplished is to vastly increase the price of components with no better sonic quality.

How is Audio playback to improved when the better quality parts are diced into extinction. (And those
same high quality parts are also necessary for recording components.)
 
So the merry-go-round continues with little, if any sonic improvements.
 
For further discussion of recording accuracy, please start another string.

Cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: GDHAL on December 16, 2022, 06:28:37 PM
Gentlemen, this string is exclusively concerned play back accuracy.

If you wish to discuss recording accuracy, please start another string.

Cheers

steve

Great point, Steve. Specifically, with your point to play back accuracy,
please answer Charles' question as far as volume control regardless of what method you implement and the accuracy that ensues from your implementation.

My question, how would your implementation affect the end result, which is the enjoyment that the listener has while listening to music?

Furthermore , do you think in any way that your implementation is going to result in an *audible difference" versus any other or different implementations?

Best.

Hal
Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: steve on December 17, 2022, 06:38:14 PM
Gentlemen, this string is exclusively concerned play back accuracy.

If you wish to discuss recording accuracy, please start another string.

Cheers

steve

Great point, Steve. Specifically, with your point to play back accuracy,
please answer Charles' question as far as volume control regardless of what method you implement and the accuracy that ensues from your implementation.

My question, how would your implementation affect the end result, which is the enjoyment that the listener has while listening to music?

Furthermore , do you think in any way that your implementation is going to result in an *audible difference" versus any other or different implementations?

Best.

Hal

Please re-read my post to Charles as the answers are contained therein.  :)

cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: GDHAL on December 17, 2022, 07:00:28 PM
Gentlemen, this string is exclusively concerned play back accuracy.

If you wish to discuss recording accuracy, please start another string.

Cheers

steve

Great point, Steve. Specifically, with your point to play back accuracy,
please answer Charles' question as far as volume control regardless of what method you implement and the accuracy that ensues from your implementation.

My question, how would your implementation affect the end result, which is the enjoyment that the listener has while listening to music?

Furthermore , do you think in any way that your implementation is going to result in an *audible difference" versus any other or different implementations?

Best.

Hal

Please re-read my post to Charles as the answers are contained therein.  :)

cheers

steve

Hi Steve. If you're referring to your post to Charles December 16, 2022, 05:19:17 PM, I reread it at your suggestion.

I couldn't glean from it the answers to my questions which is how do you feel or know your implementation will positively affect the overall *enjoyment* that the listener experiences and whether or not your implementation by virtue of it being better relative to other designs and/or parts used is clearly audible that most would conclude the sound is "better" as opposed to "different".

I suppose the essence of my question is, in your opinion, at what point in the theoretical best amp/preamp/integrated design that you or anyone else can build does it become a matter of "so what"? (Miles Davis, or not, reference)

Best.

Hal
Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: rollo on December 19, 2022, 07:57:13 AM
  Thanks Steve. Not an easy task I see.

charles
Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: steve on December 19, 2022, 09:54:50 AM
  Thanks Steve. Not an easy task I see.

charles

You are correct Charles. A few points if I may.

1. I used 25k volume controls although that requires a larger source output coupling
capacitor. 50k would only marginally reduce the high frequencies if I remember correctly.

2. Some are mid resistance frequency response (FR) measurements, that is around 2 o'clock
on the shaft setting (A taper). Less rotation (less resistance to ground) and more rotation (less resistance
to the source) would improve the high frequency response.

3. We are using a nice control. I remember when someone actually used a 250k or 500k cheapy control
and claimed better highs mid resistance. That would be because of the physical materials, elements, used
actually distorted the highs. It had highs, but questionable quality.

I hope this helps all who read this string.

cheers

steve


Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: steve on February 06, 2023, 09:30:17 AM
I made a change that has worked out very nicely. I was using a pc mount 26 turn trimming
potentiometer in parallel with resistor for precision adjustment. But even using a Vishay Bulk Foil
potentiometer was not stable enough as the contact resistance changed with time due to mechanical
play.

The wiper arm/resistance strayed too much, so I have been testing another technique
where I could use a short 18 gauge wire in place of a pot. Wire has better resistance stability. Little
inductance to speak of. Working great.

cheers

steve
Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: steve on May 30, 2023, 04:51:49 PM
Performed another experiment a few weeks ago that involved bypassing the full range driver polyprope crossover
capacitor "X" with polystyrene capacitor " Y ", and subsequent added Y caps added in series with Y to reduce the capacitance. (Y capacitors are the same capacitors, each 47pf in value.)

What value of total bypass capacitor Y would it take to Not alter the sound that I normally hear with
just X capacitor?

X capacitor was 50 ufd. That is 50 times 10 to the minus 6 farads. Y 47pf is 47 times 10 to the minus 12 farads.
47pf is ~1 million times less than 50ufd.

I started with a Y bypass capacitor, 47 pf, 630 volts.
The sound was horrible as the highs were accentuated way too much. Nasty indeed.

I series one Y cap with one Y capacitor for 23pf; still way too bright.

Then another series Y for three 47pf capacitors in series, 16pf; still too bright.

I finally stopped with 4 Y caps in series for 12pf across the 50ufd; and still brighter than
without the 12pf across X 47ufd capacitor.

Additional info.

At 20khz, the reactance of Y 12pf capacitor is ~663,000 ohms. That is across the 50uf poly
capacitor with a reactance of ~0,159 ohms. So the paralleled reactance of Y total, 12pf, is
~4,100,000 times larger than the size of the 50 uf's reactance. Phase change is virtually zero.

Now let's say the signal voltage varies directly proportional to the capacitance change. It will probably
be less, but let's be conservative. We would be talking ~ -132db down change from just the lone 50 ufd.

Interestingly, the result correlates with other tests I have performed. Examples:
 
A. I was using 10 stranded 18 gauge wires in parallel in each speaker leg. Subtracting or adding
one wire from one leg made a clear sonic difference.

B. Rotating a speaker 0,5mm made a sonic difference, both frequency response (FR) and spacial etc.

C. Altering the RIAA R1 resistance by less than 1 ohm in ~20,000 (very easily heard),

D. Moving a lead wire on a crossover choke by a fraction of an inch.

E. Torquing the speaker wire jacks affected the sonics.

F. Changing wire types, switches affected the sonics.

As mentioned above, our ears are incredibly sensitive. Far beyond what is normally considered.

Another conclusion is the laboratory system (now home) is incredibly mask free.
Virtually nothing to cover over the finer details of the music while still sounding spot on natural.

An important note is the components were designed from scratch around new JJ tubes (and Tung Sol
output tubes are even better), and not designed around NOS and/or DHT tubes.

cheers

steve

ps. I rewrote for hopefully clearer, easier understanding.






 
Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: steve on June 06, 2023, 09:25:37 PM
Although I posted this before, one of the least appreciated aspects of audio is to
make sure the speaker wires are properly tightened at the amplifier jacks and speaker jacks.

Of course don't strip the threads, but the contact resistance must be constant, or the
speaker damping, for each driver, will be inconsistent. Doesn't seem like much, but it
can make a difference, and does in this system.

Most system setups have contacts for each channel to deal with;
the connections at the amplifier and the connections at the speaker the most obvious.
Some may wish to solder the speaker wires to the speaker crossovers and even at the amplifier outputs.

Some very nice reference recordings to check out one's audio system is at "Music Discussion" sub forum.

"Sharing Top Notch, Reference Musical Links..."
https://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=6076.0


cheers

steve

ps. Some time ago, I soldered the speaker wires to the crossover board. I am seriously considering soldering
the speaker wires directly to feed through amplifier output wires.
Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: steve on January 29, 2024, 09:12:46 PM
One other tidbit if I may.

It is almost always advantageous to use the same brand, and even model, capacitor throughout
a design. When one has to compensate an inferior capacitor with a different
brand capacitor, the end result is almost always degraded sound in one or more aspects.

Using the same brand, the most natural/accurate capacitors in a design results in fewer abnormal
aspects in sound. Of course, the budget needs to be considered.

As an example, adding a single 1ufd solen capacitor into the crossover network negatively affected
the sound of the entire system.

One outstanding, natural, accurate capacitor, in absolute terms, is the Mundorf M EVO aluminum,
in oil (white covering). Small to large values I have tested are outstanding and recommended.
(I am not affiliated, and/or compensated in any way from Mundorf.)
 
cheers

steve

Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: P.I. on January 30, 2024, 10:03:15 AM
One other tidbit if I may.

It is almost always advantageous to use the same brand, and even model, capacitor throughout
a design. When one has to compensate an inferior capacitor with a different
brand capacitor, the end result is almost always degraded sound in one or more aspects.

Using the same brand, the most natural/accurate capacitors in a design results in fewer abnormal
aspects in sound. Of course, the budget needs to be considered.

As an example, adding a single 1ufd solen capacitor into the crossover network negatively affected
the sound of the entire system.


One outstanding, natural, accurate capacitor, in absolute terms, is the Mundorf M EVO aluminum,
in oil (white covering). Small to large values I have tested are outstanding and recommended.
(I am not affiliated, and/or compensated in any way from Mundorf.)
 
cheers

steve
I have found capacitors made by SCR (Solen, Axon, etc) have a house sound: gritty 🫤 . 

I'm in absolute agreement about using the same cap family in gear for consistency.
Title: Re: I think my System is virtually, finally finished
Post by: steve on January 30, 2024, 12:19:01 PM
One other tidbit if I may.

It is almost always advantageous to use the same brand, and even model, capacitor throughout
a design. When one has to compensate an inferior capacitor with a different
brand capacitor, the end result is almost always degraded sound in one or more aspects.

Using the same brand, the most natural/accurate capacitors in a design results in fewer abnormal
aspects in sound. Of course, the budget needs to be considered.

As an example, adding a single 1ufd solen capacitor into the crossover network negatively affected
the sound of the entire system.


One outstanding, natural, accurate capacitor, in absolute terms, is the Mundorf M EVO aluminum,
in oil (white covering). Small to large values I have tested are outstanding and recommended.
(I am not affiliated, and/or compensated in any way from Mundorf.)
 
cheers

steve
I have found capacitors made by SCR (Solen, Axon, etc) have a house sound: gritty 🫤 . 

I'm in absolute agreement about using the same cap family in gear for consistency.

Nice way of putting it Dave. Same here, gritty, which means the harmonic structure
of the instruments/voices has to be altered, and different from, say, the M EVO Mundorfs.

I found adding the 1 ufd solen filled out the sound slightly in my system, which 1ufd would,
but the music was just not as natural. Instruments/voices sounded off, harmonics were messed up.

I mentioned this aspect because on other forums I have read some trying to improve
synergy by using different brand caps. Better off to improve the overall design.

cheers

steve