AudioNervosa
Systemic Development => Analog Devices => Topic started by: Triode Pete on October 08, 2011, 04:44:53 PM
-
Fellow AN member toobluvr came over today for a listen & to pick-up his British made Talk CD player.
He also brought over a Fozgometer, a very clever device to get azimuth perfect on your TT cartridge.
Wow... what a difference! It literally took about 30 seconds to dial-in my azimuth (on the fly) on my new WT Reference TT. Sound is more coherent and balanced! A very noticeable difference for the good! Beg, borrow, buy or steal one to really dial-in your analog rig! Might be a great "Group Buy" for an audio club like Audio Syndrome... hint, hint, Sir Charles Rollo!
My turntable, which is ~ 85% of getting there is now about 90% there. Thanks, John!
Need to work on dampening settings, various VTA's, etc.. on my table next... it's getting close...need to get to "goosebump" level!
Pete
-
John's a good guy... 8) :thumb:
http://www.musicalsurroundings.com/fozgometer.html
-
Agreed the Fozgometer is a must have for anyone that has an arm that can adjust azimuth.
Does wonders for imaging and balance. God knows how many arms out there have whacked out azimuth :duh
-
This just may be on my Christmas list this year. Funny, I never see these on sale or used on A'gon.
-
God knows how many arms out there have whacked out azimuth :duh
or... a whacked out cartridge in which the stylus is twisted & may not be visible to the naked eye...
-
Then you need the Dino-Lite USB microscope, which is on my Xmas list, great for setting VTA angles and just plain FUN!
-
Then you need the Dino-Lite USB microscope, which is on my Xmas list, great for setting VTA angles and just plain FUN!
Interesting find! Get's a bit pricey as you bump up resolution but I can think of a lot of uses for something like this. Which one are you looking at?
-
I'm going to have to invite you over some day soon John and check my azimuth. You haven't heard my new (used) Apogees either yet.
-
A must have for the vinyl junkie. You do not know what your missing until azimuth is correct. Same for VTA.
charles
SMA
-
Well my audio buddy John (toobluvr) came over today to dial-in my new Clearaudio Maestro Wood. I had it set-up pretty anal retentive (tracking force dead on @ 2.2 g, overhang perfect, VTA dead-on flat level with a normal LP, yaddya, yaddya, yaddya). I left the azimuth as perfectly perpendicular as can be...
Before toobluvr & BobM came over, I set-up Stan Ricker's Cardas LP Frequency Sweep & Burn-in record... I noticed that the left channel was perfect but the right channel had some slight crossover from the left channel.
Fast forward; hooked-up the Fozgometer & it told me the same thing... Had to adjust azimuth a very noticeable 15 degrees or so clockwise to achieve perfect channel equilibrium.
Wow, getting goosebumps right now from setting the azimuth correctly! Looking at the cartridge, you'd never think it was set-up correctly but it is... imaging, channel separation, PRAT is great... :thumb:
Thanks, John!
Pete
-
Well my audio buddy John (toobluvr) came over today to dial-in my new Clearaudio Maestro Wood. I had it set-up pretty anal retentive (tracking force dead on @ 2.2 g, overhang perfect, VTA dead-on flat level with a normal LP, yaddya, yaddya, yaddya). I left the azimuth as perfectly perpendicular as can be...
Before toobluvr & BobM came over, I set-up Stan Ricker's Cardas LP Frequency Sweep & Burn-in record... I noticed that the left channel was perfect but the right channel had some slight crossover from the left channel.
Fast forward; hooked-up the Fozgometer & it told me the same thing... Had to adjust azimuth a very noticeable 15 degrees or so clockwise to achive perfect channel equilibrium.
Wow, getting goosebumps right now from setting the azimuth correctly! Looking at the cartridge, you'd never think it was set-up correctly but it is... imaging, channel separation, PRAT is great... :thumb:
Thanks, John!
Pete
Guess I missed a good day.
-
Well my audio buddy John (toobluvr) came over today to dial-in my new Clearaudio Maestro Wood. I had it set-up pretty anal retentive (tracking force dead on @ 2.2 g, overhang perfect, VTA dead-on flat level with a normal LP, yaddya, yaddya, yaddya). I left the azimuth as perfectly perpendicular as can be...
Before toobluvr & BobM came over, I set-up Stan Ricker's Cardas LP Frequency Sweep & Burn-in record... I noticed that the left channel was perfect but the right channel had some slight crossover from the left channel.
Fast forward; hooked-up the Fozgometer & it told me the same thing... Had to adjust azimuth a very noticeable 15 degrees or so clockwise to achive perfect channel equilibrium.
Wow, getting goosebumps right now from setting the azimuth correctly! Looking at the cartridge, you'd never think it was set-up correctly but it is... imaging, channel separation, PRAT is great... :thumb:
Thanks, John!
Pete
Guess I missed a good day.
Yes you did, you workaholic (I know, "You're "On It""). You're welcome over anytime, Evan!
Pete
-
Get ready for Fozgometer to raise their price! :rofl:
-
Get ready for Fozgometer to raise their price! :rofl:
If that's the case, I'll build my own... or set-up my digital Fluke to do the same thing... just need to get a pair of RCA leads... pretty simple...
-
"or set-up my digital Fluke to do the same thing"
How would that work?
-
"or set-up my digital Fluke to do the same thing"
How would that work?
Need to make RCA leads that fit into my Fluke AC meter (measuring AC mV). Hook up RCA test leads to the turntable RCA outputs. With a test record, get both right mono & left mono channels to give the same (equal) output by adjusting azimuth. Output readings should be the same, balanced readings for both channels...
-
Or just buy a Linn LP12 and never need to adjust a thing except your wallet :duh
Yes siree Bob you can for about $14,000 have a new Linn LP12, arm and Linn cart.
Perfect sound forever :roll:. Ivor loves you.
charles
SMA
-
Sorry to be against the grain, but in terms of high end tables Linn ranks pretty low, and they sound it too.
No offense Charles I know you have a Linn, but if you ever heard a bigger table in your system you would be floored.
My old Thorens 125 was better than the Linn
Linn suffers from a rather rabid fan base, and that really limits them, as all of those ball hugger fanboy fanbases, from knowing what really could be achieved.
I never understood why people became so Linn gaga, in comparison to other tables they are nothing really
The Kuzma will kill the Linn without even trying. Kuzma is still in the dark, still a sort of unkown, but that may change as more and more people experiment with vinyl.
-
"or set-up my digital Fluke to do the same thing"
How would that work?
Need to make RCA leads that fit into my Fluke AC meter (measuring AC mV). Hook up RCA test leads to the turntable RCA outputs. With a test record, get both right mono & left mono channels to give the same (equal) output by adjusting azimuth. Output readings should be the same, balanced readings for both channels...
Digital Multimeters have gotten so cheap that you can probably get two of them (one for each channel) and some wires and connectors to make RCA input interfaces for about 1/5 of what you would pay for a Fozgometer.
-
No offense Charles I know you have a Linn, but if you ever heard a bigger table in your system you would be floored.
Sir Charles - put that Linn on the SMA website & buy my Well Tempered Classic, which served me extremely well... I'll even set it up for you & show you the importance of azimuth adjustment, something your current Scottish table can't do... :thumb:
I also have 2 WT platters with it, a heavy damped platter & original acrylic platter, 2 hold down screw clamps & throw in a Bren1 record clamp as well... :drool:
C'mon, it'll be a party!
-
... I'll even set it up for you & show you the importance of azimuth adjustment, something your current Scottish table can't do... :thumb:
... or VTA
-
Thats the beauty of a Linn. Already done right for ya. That is if using a Linn cart. No need to adjust a thing. Perfect sound forever. Didn't someone named Sony say that ??
Tweek and adjust away my dear chickadees Men I'll just sit back and get the toe tapping going. Now you wouldn't want me to bring the Linn over and make your Nervosa come out do ya ??? I'm Lingoed, Trampolined and Archived and yet to be Keeled or is that killed with the upgrade costs. :duh My only complaint.
Maybe we should conduct a TT shootout. If anything we will learn a thing or two. Only issue is cart loading. The Arkiv at .15mv needs some gain. Bob you have a TT ??
charles
SMA
-
Maybe we should conduct a TT shootout. If anything we will learn a thing or two.
Only problem with that is all the transportation and setup, since TT's are so finicky it is hard to optomize them at someone elses house. I think Mike (Topround) was going to do something like that with all the goodies at his disposal.
-
Charles, You are trying to soup up a VW when you need a Ferrari.
Save your money, sell the Linn and get the Kuzma, don't get sucked into the Linn money spending gig.
Naim does the same thing always putting a carrot in front of you.
Just get a great table and be done, the Linn was great in like 1978! Get a Kuzma arm and a good cart and be done.
Please understand no offense is being attempted here, just trying to say you could do better and save money.
That little Stogi table with a Stogi or Stogi Reference arm will blow you away, and everything is adjustable so you can nail the geometry!
-
Maybe we should conduct a TT shootout. If anything we will learn a thing or two.
charles
SMA
Been there, done that!
Recently, we directly compared my TT with a local buddy's. Same system (his), same everything, including cartridge. He had a full blown Linn, every conceivable upgrade. I have a Townshend Rock Mk3. The Linn was obviously inferior to us both. So much so that a week later he asked me to bring the Rock around again to confirm things. Same results.
Within a month, my buddy had a used Rock 3, better sound, and an extra $1000 in his pocket. Yep, I guess he learned something alright!
:rofl: :thumb:
John
-
Wow, getting goosebumps right now from setting the azimuth correctly! Looking at the cartridge, you'd never think it was set-up correctly but it is... imaging, channel separation, PRAT is great... :thumb:
Thanks, John!
Pete
Hiya Pete.....
Your rig was singing beautifully when I left on Sat. I enjoyed it very much!
Never underestimate the value of a good Fozgo session! :rofl: :thumb:
I have now Fozgoed 6, maybe 8, cartridges. Every single one needed to be twisted one way or another. In other words, a neutral tonearm was incorrect for azimuth. This means that most carts are not built properly - even new ones -- and will therefore not give full potential unless properly adjusted for azimuth.
After this experience, and hearing the profound effect of properly dialed azimuth on SQ, I would NEVER own an arm where azimuth adjustment is not possible.
John
-
Hiya Pete ...Your rig was singing beautifully when I left on Sat. I enjoyed it very much! ... John
+1
I took the liberty to edit Johns comments down to save space, but I totally agree that Pete's new TT set-up sounded great! :thumb:
SN
P.S. to Pete: Coming over to your place for a listen is a "love/hate" kinda thing... I love what your system sounds like and then hate going home to listen to mine! :roll:
-
Boys boys Linnies are Linnies which I am not. I do not believe in the upgrade path. The only big difference was installing the Lingo power supply. My total investment was $2000. Bought it used. We never had a different TT in the house. Used a Micro benz M2 wood body and Linn Arkiv.
Is the Linn better NO it is different just like anything we inject in our systems. It offers a neutral presentation which allowed me to flavor the game to my taste with different cartridges.
I have been thinking of retiring the Linn and buying a Kuzma. Before I do though an audition of the Well Tempered may be a good idea.
A mini meeting is in order.
charles
SMA
-
This means that most carts are not built properly - even new ones...
I don't think that it is a matter of cartridges not being built "properly". We have to keep in mind that what we are trying to align is is not the cartridge but actually the stylus itself. We typically us the body as a guide because it is easy to deal with visually and can get us close, but a visually aligned body is not the final answer. For the best results final optimizations must be done by ear or at least using some electrical measurements tweak out that last bit of performance. First off the final adjustments are very small such that any tiny changes in stylus position relative to the body becomes very significant. And while manufacturing to that kind of tolerance is extreme difficult (and expensive) there is also another factor at work, break in. At cartridge is a complex system of moving parts held together by a suspension system. No matter how well put together it is in the factory that suspension is going to move and shift with age and use. Different shifts in that suspension will require different body alignments even between identical model cartridges. This is why I will never do a final dial-in on a cartridge set-up until it has at least 100 hours of run time on it.
I guess the bottom line is that you are setting the azimuth of the of the stylus, not the cartridge body nor the tone arm, so how the physically look as actually irrelevant.
-
This means that most carts are not built properly - even new ones...
I don't think that it is a matter of cartridges not being built "properly". We have to keep in mind that what we are trying to align is is not the cartridge but actually the stylus itself. We typically us the body as a guide because it is easy to deal with visually and can get us close, but a visually aligned body is not the final answer. For the best results final optimizations must be done by ear or at least using some electrical measurements tweak out that last bit of performance. First off the final adjustments are very small such that any tiny changes in stylus position relative to the body becomes very significant. And while manufacturing to that kind of tolerance is extreme difficult (and expensive) there is also another factor at work, break in. At cartridge is a complex system of moving parts held together by a suspension system. No matter how well put together it is in the factory that suspension is going to move and shift with age and use. Different shifts in that suspension will require different body alignments even between identical model cartridges. This is why I will never do a final dial-in on a cartridge set-up until it has at least 100 hours of run time on it.
I guess the bottom line is that you are setting the azimuth of the of the stylus, not the cartridge body nor the tone arm, so how the physically look as actually irrelevant.
Let me clarify....
With azimuth we are trying to achieve perfect verticality of the stylus in the groove when viewed head-on. I don't know how anyone would use the cart body to achieve this, as you suggest. I think you are referring to the practise of using the cart body when adjusting the null points. This is an erroneous approach. One should view the cantilever (not cart body) and align it with protractor lines. Reason? Because the cantilever is often not perfect in the cart body, therefore the cart body is not a good proxy when setting null points.
I stand by my statement that if a new cart is built right, then a "neutral" arm position (ie: no twisting) will yield perfect azimuth. I have yet to encounter this in all the Fozgo setups I have done, so I conclude there is some imprecision in the building of the carts.
There are two possible explanations for imprecise azimuth with a new cart, and both have to do with the cart mfr process:
(1) the stylus is not attached perfectly to the cantilever
or
(2) the cantilever is not installed properly into the cart body
And good luck trying to set azimuth by ear. IMO that is impossible.
-
I'm sold. Was having some fun with you guys. Even the Linn has some wiggle room for final adjustment. When I installed the Arkiv it sounded like crap. When I had it adjusted it was night and day. Gotta love Dave at Accent on Music in Mt Kisco.
I am considering a new TT. A Kuzma with the 4 point arm. However until I install the Boboli HOMC and compare it to the Arkiv the jury is still out. The Boboli has an output of 2mv a perfect match for the Loesch. To date I have yet to use the Loesch with a higher output cart. :duh Waiting for some Ortofon 7N Cart leads to arrive from the Needle doctor.
When I do the Fozgometer will be used to great affect.
charles
SMA
-
Kuzma with a 4 point.............don't even bother with anything else.it will be great, who makes Linn carts?(AT)?
Charlie the 4 point is a music making machine
-
but first ...
... a little bit o luck
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQpDipcVbSPtOg5ze4bj3nyi1iiJc9_E4_vNsZ4JPVOxtKoKeQong)
-
Let me clarify....
With azimuth we are trying to achieve perfect verticality of the stylus in the groove when viewed head-on. I don't know how anyone would use the cart body to achieve this, as you suggest. I think you are referring to the practise of using the cart body when adjusting the null points. This is an erroneous approach. One should view the cantilever (not cart body) and align it with protractor lines. Reason? Because the cantilever is often not perfect in the cart body, therefore the cart body is not a good proxy when setting null points.
I agree that it is not right, but I have seen numerous written instructions for Cart alignment that suggest putting a small mirror on the platter and then lowering the cart onto it and twisting the azimuth until the reflection of the body in the mirror makes a straight line with the body itself. It is a very common practice with lower end TT. I don't agree with it, but I didn't pull the idea out of thin air.
-
"I agree that it is not right, but I have seen numerous written instructions for Cart alignment that suggest putting a small mirror on the platter and then lowering the cart onto it and twisting the azimuth until the reflection of the body in the mirror makes a straight line with the body itself. It is a very common practice with lower end TT. I don't agree with it, but I didn't pull the idea out of thin air."
Now this is a blast from the past. The bloody mirror (or a record with a big blank space) and using a magnifying glass to try and get the diamond exactly in line with it's reflection without doing damage. Well it was better than nothing until I got a Souther linear tracker that had all sorts of neat adjustments. To deal with this issue they had a long fine metal rod that just lay on top of the cart. This gave a much better base-line, but no matter what you did there was no way to know if the azymuth was actually correct except eye-balling...with the mirror. I think I would have given anything for the Fozmeter. I probably never heard any cart. properly set and heaven knows I tried.
-
...I have seen numerous written instructions for Cart alignment that suggest putting a small mirror on the platter and then lowering the cart onto it and twisting the azimuth until the reflection of the body in the mirror makes a straight line with the body itself. It is a very common practice with lower end TT. I don't agree with it, but I didn't pull the idea out of thin air.
I have always found that guidance to be more than sufficient. This is almost a verbatim quote of the instructions that came with my Ortofon Jubilee and Benz Wood M2 cartridges.
I don't see anything wrong with someone wanting to make sure that their cartridge is dialed in as perfectly as possible. And if the Fozgometer helps them with that then I am all for it. But I have to admit that I am of the close-is-good-enough mindset when it comes to azimuth alignment (hell, when it comes to most things in home audio).
As I have read through this thread with interest part of me was thinking that if some enterprising audio company were to come up with a gizmo that you could connect to your system and it would tell you weather or not it sounded good...such a device would find a sizable and welcoming audience among audiophiles.
I am perfectly content to set my cartridge up using the tools that came with my tonearm (I think SME does a pretty good job on its alignment and VTA aids) and the instructions that was supplied with my cartridge. I trust my ears to inform my judgment regarding the accuracy of my work. If it sounds great and I can loose myself in the music to the point where my system and the room vanish, and all that is left is me and the music...well that is all that I think I can hope for with my vinyl rig. I am already there folks. For those who want and demand more, I sincerely hope you find it.
--Jerome
-
Wow, getting goosebumps right now from setting the azimuth correctly! Looking at the cartridge, you'd never think it was set-up correctly but it is... imaging, channel separation, PRAT is great... :thumb:
Thanks, John!
Pete
Hiya Pete.....
Your rig was singing beautifully when I left on Sat. I enjoyed it very much!
Never underestimate the value of a good Fozgo session! :rofl: :thumb:
I have now Fozgoed 6, maybe 8, cartridges. Every single one needed to be twisted one way or another. In other words, a neutral tonearm was incorrect for azimuth. This means that most carts are not built properly - even new ones -- and will therefore not give full potential unless properly adjusted for azimuth.
After this experience, and hearing the profound effect of properly dialed azimuth on SQ, I would NEVER own an arm where azimuth adjustment is not possible.
John
John if you ever make it to Staten Island with Chris I wouldn't mind trying this out
-
Jerome, I think we are all happy until we hear something better.
I thought my cartridge sounded fine until it was Fozgo'd, and it only got better.
Part of it is that we really don't know if our carts are performing at their optimum, our eyes can't tell and our ears are not that good to determine absolute correct geometry even though some of us think we can.
Also if you spent several thousand dollars on a cartridge , the least you would want is it to be performing at its best.
The Fozgometer makes easy work of one of the most difficult things in analogue to nail down.
Nothing wrong with that....time marches on and so does the technology....thank God
-
Also if you spent several thousand dollars on a cartridge , the least you would want is it to be performing at its best.
You seem to be implying that someone who spent less than several thousand dollars on their cartridge is less demanding or has lower standards. I have enough invested (more than $1) in my vinyl rig that having it perform at its best is important to me. Let's not make this about money.
I wasn't critical of anyone who thinks the Fozgometer is a useful tool. But I don't agree that one is necessary to get a cartridge aligned well enough so it produces great sound. I don't loose any sleep over the thought that others might have spent way more money than I have on my set up or that they may even be enjoying better sound. I spend within my means and enjoy what I have. Keeping up with the Jones' is not the reason I am in this game. I do what pleases me and don't much care whether or not someone else approves of it.
--Jerome
-
I am perfectly content to set my cartridge up using the tools that came with my tonearm (I think SME does a pretty good job on its alignment and VTA aids) and the instructions that was supplied with my cartridge.
I disagree, SME provides a great set of setup tools and instructions with their arms. They are simple to use and have gotten my initial rough setups be closer to optimal than anything else I have ever used. (Unfortunately, they are arm specific and cannot help anyone else, but they have done real good by me.)
I also know where you are coming from with the close enough concept. Especially with the arm specific SME tools I am confident that I can a damn good setup without and exorbitant amount of effort. Case in point, when I recently upgraded from the Mk II to the Mk IV platter on my HW-19 I just used the SME tools and eyeballed it. With just that the sound was greatly improved over the previous setup and I have been just sitting back and enjoying it for about two months now. Now I know it could get better if I invested the time and fine tuned it, but it is really enjoyable right now and life as of late has been rather hectic, so I have decided that with the limited time I have had to spent in the mancave I would rather be listing to the system that futzing with it. Someday, when things calm down I will pull out the tools and invest the time in maxing out the alignment, but right now the music just seems like a better use of my time. Perhaps it is also my way of keeping the Nervosa Barbaian outside the gate in that next time I get the itch to upgrade, rather than plunking down cash for new hardware I can feed the jones by doing the alignment tweaking instead :roll:
-
Tom, I think we all have things in audio that we are sensitive to. Admittedly, gear and tweaks just are not big priorities for me. It doesn't mean I am not interested...but I have other pressure points in my pursuit of audio satisfaction.
My big issue is the quality of the source recording, mastering, and subsequent pressing to vinyl. I am extremely sensitive to physical pressing defects and damage to records, which is why you won't see me playing too many LPs that grade below NM. I won't buy any record that grades below VG+, no matter how desirable.
Sometimes I feel that in this hobby ignorance is bliss. Last year I upgraded my loudspeakers from Omega Max Hemps to Audiokinesis Planetarium Alphas. I made the change to deal with a minor problem I was having with occasional sibilance with the Max Hemps. The Audiokinesis speakers solved that issue and I also discovered that they produced more realistic highs. Cymbal crashes and Hi-Hats sounded particularly real and lifelike. But the funny thing is that I never felt this was a weakness of the Max Hemps. It was a pleasant surprise with the new speakers but that does not diminish the years of enjoyment I obtained from the Omegas. This ties into what Mike said earlier about being happy until hearing something better. I see his point...but fortunately for me I don't get out too often to hear other setups so Jonesing just isn't much of a temptation for me.
--Jerome
-
Also if you spent several thousand dollars on a cartridge , the least you would want is it to be performing at its best.
You seem to be implying that someone who spent less than several thousand dollars on their cartridge is less demanding or has lower standards. I have enough invested (more than $1) in my vinyl rig that having it perform at its best is important to me. Let's not make this about money.
I wasn't critical of anyone who thinks the Fozgometer is a useful tool. But I don't agree that one is necessary to get a cartridge aligned well enough so it produces great sound. I don't loose any sleep over the thought that others might have spent way more money than I have on my set up or that they may even be enjoying better sound. I spend within my means and enjoy what I have. Keeping up with the Jones' is not the reason I am in this game. I do what pleases me and don't much care whether or not someone else approves of it.
--Jerome
I don't think that Mike was trying to make this about money or be critical of what people did or did not spend on equipment but rather was just using a large purchase price as an indication that the person must have been very serious about the sound. and he feels that if they are serious enough to spend big bucks then they should be serious enough to want to wring the most out of that investment.
I am going to tread lightly here because this can get to be a very touch subject around here and I don't want to upset anyone or get into another "class warfare" debate, but let me make this quick comment on that idea:
This is a hobby that usually ends up requiring a good amount of cash to do well. And the people who get involved generally fall into two categories those that are well off financially and can lay out large sums of cash without thinking about it too much and those for whom participating in this hobby puts a significant drain on their disposable income and therefore want to writing every last once of performance out of every dollar the spend. (and of course not every body fits exactly or exclusively in one of these boxes, it is just a general observation. And at no time during this discussion am I trying to imply that one type is in any way better than the other.)
But the fact of the matter is that most people who make a lot of money do so at a cost....time. This leads the two groups to to view the hobby at times from very different perspectives.
To the average working Joe who loves music and makes a decent living at a 40-50 hour a week job the critical resource in putting together a high end system is cash. This is and expensive hobby and often strains the budgets of those involved in it. But what this guy does have extra of this time, so he uses that time carefully research his purchases and to tweak and modify his system such that he gets the absolute most sound he can out of every dollar he spends
On the hand, to the corporate executive or law firm partner, who has plenty of money to spend, but regularly spends 80+ hours a week in the office or on the road (you don't think they just give you those big salaries for nothing, do you?) the critical resource is very often time. They have very little time to listen to the system and would much rather just throw money at it so they can spend what little time they have listening t the system rather than working on it.
To the working guy spending several hours optimizing a $1K cartridge to get it to sound like a $2K cartridge is a great deal and meets their needs for the system. While in the case of the time constrained rich guy, he might be much more happy with a roughly set up $4K cart that sounded like a $2k cartridge because if he spent the time tweaking the Cart to optimize its potential he would have no time left to listen to it. Both guys got the sound of a nice $2k cart and both are very comfortable with the path he took to get there.
As my brother-in-law used to say to me whenever we started a project,"all it's going to take is time and money, how much of each are you willing to dedicate to the project and that will determine the path that we take to accomplish it." I am going through a very similar decision path right now at home. Now that my wife has passed I am faced with the prospect of repairing all of the sheetrock holes and ripped up molding caused by her trying to navigate her power wheelchair through a house that was never designed as handicapped accessible.
Now this is nothing that I really couldn't handle myself, but given all the other demands on my time a project that would take a professional 2 or three days to complete would drag out form month with me working an hour or two at a time. So I have to make a choice of whether to pay someone I to do something I am perfectly capable of doing myself and forgo other potential uses of that money or to use that money for something else (like a system upgrade) and give up a good chunk of my free time. (BTW, if anyone reading this is an un or underemployed carpenter in the Long Island area, shoot me a PM, we need to talk.)
Bottom line here is that there is no right or wrong hear at time vs money decision is a very personal one and just depends on what works for you at the moment (and yes these things do change over time. There are plenty of things that I would not have thought twice about doing three years ago and will probably not think twice about in another three years but just do not have the strength or ambition to tackle right now.)
Wow, who said this was going to be a quick comment? :roll:
-
I wasn't critical of anyone who thinks the Fozgometer is a useful tool. But I don't agree that one is necessary to get a cartridge aligned well enough so it produces great sound.
--Jerome
True, if your azimuth is not way outta whack. The improvement is a matter of degree, and is a function of how outta whack your starting position is.
I have experienced it, several times. I fozgoed one guy whose cartridge needed about a 40 degree clockwise rotation! Did it sound good pre-fozgo? Sure it did, and he was enjoying his vinyl playback. But oh my, the power and glory post fozgo! It was not subtle. Things just locked into place and the pesentation got very focused, solid, coherent, dimensional and natural. Just more "right".
I am neither an obsessive tweakaholic nor snake oil obsessed. I don't even use cones or footers of any sort, no shaktis, no thing-a-ma-jigs, no thing-a-ma-bobs, just a very solid maple butcher block rack. But having experienced it's effect firsthand many times, I can attest to the power of the Fozgo. So much so that, as I said earlier, I would never own an arm that does not do azimuth adjustments.
Sure, you can get good sound w/o Fozgo. But you are almost guaranteed to get noticeably better sound with it. And I don't consider it tweaky or fiddly or obsessive. I consider it critical.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think it's better to develop that opinion with actual experience before voicing it so strongly.
John
-
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think it's better to develop that opinion with actual experience before voicing it so strongly
You are free to disagree with me but I stand by my opinion. I'm sorry that you seem bothered by how I expressed my views but that doesn't change anything. If you want to argue that I am not qualified to express an opinion about azimuth alignment and how to achieve it because I haven't tried a Fozgometer, then I don't see how that is relevant. I have installed and dialed in several tonearms and cartridges over the years, and I think that experience more than qualifies me to discuss alignment. I use different tools and methods than you do, that's it. You can argue that you use better tools than I do, and I am in no position to argue otherwise. But you aren't in my room listening to my setup, and you are in no position to comment on how well or poorly I have adjusted my alignment.
I never said that people who buy a Fozgometer are wasting their money. I might be compelled to give one a try if I was having alignment related sound problems that I could not otherwise resolve. Or if I had a tonearm that was particularly troublesome to dial in. I don't have experience with a lot of different tonearms, only having installed and set up a number of different SME, Rega, and Jelco arms. I understand that there are some uni-pivot and dual pivot arms that are quite touchy to get properly adjusted.
I'm delighted that the Fozgometer works for you and that it improved your sound. No fair-minded person would be rooting for someone else's failure.
--Jerome
-
Wow, who said this was going to be a quick comment? :roll:
Tom, I appreciate your level-headed perspective.
My only concern when the subject of cost and how much money people spend comes uip is when that is used as the principal basis for judging another's commitment to great sound. I don't think that is what was happening here.
We all have varying priorities. And while we all might share the same goal of enjoying the best possible sound we most assuredly are not in unanimous agreement on how to get there.
For instance, some have said that they do not feel that $50 for a 45RPM 180g audiophile LP is worth the money. I invest huge in these records and have spent more money on them then most people here have spent on their entire analog set up. But it would be wrong for me to judge those folks as not being as committed to getting the best possible sound as I am simply because they don't share my values and priorities. They absolutely are just as devoted as I am, they have merely chosen a different path that best suits their own values.
A few weeks ago I was reading a review of the Origin Live Calypso turntable in The Absolute Sound, by reviewer Jimmy Hughes. He writes...
"Sound quality is a relative (rather than an absolute) thing. It’s all about having your expectations fulfilled, rather than achieving an arbitrary standard."
His comment sums up perfectly my thoughts on the subject.
With that I think I will gracefully bow out of this thread. I feel that my comments have been something of a distraction and it was not my intent to run the thread off topic. For that I do apologize.
--Jerome
-
I wasn't critical of anyone who thinks the Fozgometer is a useful tool. But I don't agree that one is necessary to get a cartridge aligned well enough so it produces great sound.
--Jerome
True, if your azimuth is not way outta whack. The improvement is a matter of degree, and is a function of how outta whack your starting position is.
I have experienced it, several times. I fozgoed one guy whose cartridge needed about a 40 degree clockwise rotation! Did it sound good pre-fozgo? Sure it did, and he was enjoying his vinyl playback. But oh my, the power and glory post fozgo! It was not subtle. Things just locked into place and the pesentation got very focused, solid, coherent, dimensional and natural. Just more "right".
I am neither an obsessive tweakaholic nor snake oil obsessed. I don't even use cones or footers of any sort, no shaktis, no thing-a-ma-jigs, no thing-a-ma-bobs, just a very solid maple butcher block rack. But having experienced it's effect firsthand many times, I can attest to the power of the Fozgo. So much so that, as I said earlier, I would never own an arm that does not do azimuth adjustments.
Sure, you can get good sound w/o Fozgo. But you are almost guaranteed to get noticeably better sound with it. And I don't consider it tweaky or fiddly or obsessive. I consider it critical.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think it's better to develop that opinion with actual experience before voicing it so strongly.
John
Hey John
Glad to see you're back !
-
Jerome.....
I never said you can't get good sound w/o the fozgo. Matter of fact you can, and I said so above. It's just that it allows you to get "mo better" sound...especially if your cart is not built right and your arm is in neutral azimuth position (ie: not rotated either way), or you have tried to adjust for it with some non-fozgo method.
I will however, disagree that other methods are just as good -- as you seem to be asserting. I'm sorry, but there is just no way you can use either your ears or eyes, and get the same precise results that Fozgo can give you. No way. God bless you if you are Superman and you can!
Now, if you don't have super-human powers can you get lucky and get close? Sure. But Fozgo eliminates luck and gives certainty. And it does so very quickly. No fuss, no muss.
And I never brought $$ into the equation. If you don't think it's worth it...fine. That is all subjective and a legitimate pt of view. All I've ever said is: (1) it is an excellent tool for dialing in azimuth, (2) that it is superior to anything else out there, and (3) that in my experience its effect is not subtle. And every guy who has seen it in action will concur on these points. I don't know why you continue to argue against these obvious facts.
You seem to be taking this whole thing way too seriously and personally. Just chill. You are entitled to your opinion, and it doesn't bother me. If you think you have a better method, or one just as good, fine, enjoy yourself. But I will never agree that you do. Nor will most others. That's all.
Now back to spinning vinyl on this snowy day w my superb sounding and fozgo'ed analog rig! :thumb:
John
-
Jerome,
I am sorry if some offense was felt on your part, no offense was intended.
I just bought a 2hure cartridge for $60 that I am going to setup up on my son's table and I will Fozgo that cartridge for sure. So it is not about money.
Having balanced tires on a Chevy is as important as on a Ferrari.
I am not a trial lawyer nor investment banker and still I would want my azimuth correct if I could. I am lucky I have such good friends with nice toys.
Maybe a trip to Conn with the Fozgo is in order?
Mike
-
How about a trip to SE PA with it. :duh
-
If John is up to it, I will go
-
The ultimate Fozz ... Hey, do it my way!!! This thing rocks.
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRy4FlGh4LFT47eLWL2Ttl3ZtvDWMsR9qmCQsTQHMVWei2q-0vcKg)
-
With that I think I will gracefully bow out of this thread. I feel that my comments have been something of a distraction and it was not my intent to run the thread off topic. For that I do apologize.
I don't think your comments were off topic by even the slightest amount. They were right on point and brought about some valid discussion about the use of the Fozgometer.
No apology needed at all.
-
Well, since I heard such a great improvement after getting Fozgo'd on my Grado Sonata & now my Clearaudio Maestro Wood, I took the plunge & purchased one along with the recommended test LP.
I'm putting together a "Lifetime Lease" membership for those who want to join my "Fozgo Club" in the NYC Metro area.
Hopefully, I'll have ~ 10 leasees who are interested in a $20 "Lifetime Lease" in using a Fozgometer on their analog rig in conjuction with the Analogue Productions Test LP. I'll even come over & personally show you how to do it!
This is the only way I could justify the cost of purchasing this great test device in my head & have others share in the value of being "Fozgo'd"!
Pete
-
Well, since I heard such a great improvement after getting Fozgo'd on my Grado Sonata & now my Clearaudio Maestro Wood, I took the plunge & purchased one along with the recommended test LP.
I'm putting together a "Lifetime Lease" membership for those who want to join my "Fozgo Club" in the NYC Metro area.
Hopefully, I'll have ~ 10 leasees who are interested in a $20 "Lifetime Lease" in using a Fozgometer on their analog rig in conjuction with the Analogue Productions Test LP. I'll even come over & personally show you how to do it!
This is the only way I could justify the cost of purchasing this great test device in my head & have others share in the value of being "Fozgo'd"!
Pete
I'm in
-
Damn, we so need to get one of these down in NC here (or Pete, get you to visit!)
The Fozgometer is definitely on my Christmas list. Surely some audio-retailer on the web is bound to have a Black Friday sale, right? If anyone hears of such, please post!
-
Well, since I heard such a great improvement after getting Fozgo'd on my Grado Sonata & now my Clearaudio Maestro Wood, I took the plunge & purchased one along with the recommended test LP.
I'm putting together a "Lifetime Lease" membership for those who want to join my "Fozgo Club" in the NYC Metro area.
Hopefully, I'll have ~ 10 leasees who are interested in a $20 "Lifetime Lease" in using a Fozgometer on their analog rig in conjuction with the Analogue Productions Test LP. I'll even come over & personally show you how to do it!
This is the only way I could justify the cost of purchasing this great test device in my head & have others share in the value of being "Fozgo'd"!
Pete
I'm in
Me too. :D
-
Well, since I heard such a great improvement after getting Fozgo'd on my Grado Sonata & now my Clearaudio Maestro Wood, I took the plunge & purchased one along with the recommended test LP.
I'm putting together a "Lifetime Lease" membership for those who want to join my "Fozgo Club" in the NYC Metro area.
Hopefully, I'll have ~ 10 leasees who are interested in a $20 "Lifetime Lease" in using a Fozgometer on their analog rig in conjuction with the Analogue Productions Test LP. I'll even come over & personally show you how to do it!
This is the only way I could justify the cost of purchasing this great test device in my head & have others share in the value of being "Fozgo'd"!
Pete
Unlike Groucho, I'm willing to join a club who would have me as a member. Roadtrip to Jersey after you hit Evan in SI.
-
Well, since I heard such a great improvement after getting Fozgo'd on my Grado Sonata & now my Clearaudio Maestro Wood, I took the plunge & purchased one along with the recommended test LP.
I'm putting together a "Lifetime Lease" membership for those who want to join my "Fozgo Club" in the NYC Metro area.
Hopefully, I'll have ~ 10 leasees who are interested in a $20 "Lifetime Lease" in using a Fozgometer on their analog rig in conjuction with the Analogue Productions Test LP. I'll even come over & personally show you how to do it!
This is the only way I could justify the cost of purchasing this great test device in my head & have others share in the value of being "Fozgo'd"!
Pete
I'm in
Me too. :D
Me 3 !!! :thumb:
-
Pete, if you go to Evan's you know where you're going next! :thumb:
Joe
-
Pete, if you go to Evan's you know where you're going next! :thumb:
Joe
If you want to play you have to pay :rofl:
-
Can of worms here, Pete. In some cases, your travelling costs will exceed the Fozgo rental fee!
:shock: :rofl:
-
Then they can pay him the extra in beer (and we all know Pete can easily make up those costs rather quickly). :beer:
-
With that I think I will gracefully bow out of this thread. I feel that my comments have been something of a distraction and it was not my intent to run the thread off topic. For that I do apologize.
I don't think your comments were off topic by even the slightest amount. They were right on point and brought about some valid discussion about the use of the Fozgometer.
Jerome we love ya. No distraction at all. Different opinions make for learning.
charles
SMA
-
With that I think I will gracefully bow out of this thread. I feel that my comments have been something of a distraction and it was not my intent to run the thread off topic. For that I do apologize.
I don't think your comments were off topic by even the slightest amount. They were right on point and brought about some valid discussion about the use of the Fozgometer.
Jerome we love ya. No distraction at all. Different opinions make for learning.
charles
SMA
+1 :thumb:
-
Can of worms here, Pete. In some cases, your travelling costs will exceed the Fozgo rental fee!
:shock: :rofl:
It's for the love of our great hobby (beers & wine included! :beer:) ... and it's not a rental fee, it's "lifetime lease" agreement... the only caveat is that it's hand-delivered to the leasee using it... it doesn't have to me but it can be...
Cheers! :beer:
-
The Fozgo & Test LP have arrived! :thumb:
Prepare to be amazed! :D
Pete
PS - It appears tmazz's two tables may be the first to be Fozgo'd!
-
:thumb:
The Fozgo & Test LP have arrived! :thumb:
Prepare to be amazed! :D
Pete
PS - It appears tmazz's two tables may be the first to be Fozgo'd!
Me next
-
:thumb:The Fozgo & Test LP have arrived! :thumb:
Prepare to be amazed! :D
Pete
PS - It appears tmazz's two tables may be the first to be Fozgo'd!
Me next
You can practically walk from SI to NJ ;)
-
Hey Pete, I'll pay for your transportation costs ... Let's see...how about a beer per 100 yards...? That won't quite make a six pack but if I share one bottle with you, you can have the rest and we'll call it even (Pete lives around the corner from me...I'm one of his original TWL crash-test-dummies and happy to be so). I can't wait to get my Sota Saphire seriously singing again. See ya.
-
I will confirm that Triode Pete along with his trusty Fozogometer, test record and set up skills are a blessing for us.
His patience attention to detail and work ethic must be complimented.
A big thanks for setting up the Kuzma. :thumb:
charles
SMA
-
Pete,
Consider offering a TT set up and or tune up for a fee. Years ago when the Linn arrived it was set up by a pro in my home for $150. It was worth every penny spent.
You have the skill, equipment and attention to detail required for this.
charles
SMA
-
I agree! Few TT setup pros will have Fozgo or your experience, or ear.
Just please offer a quantity discount on your per mile travel fee. ;)
-
Can of worms here, Pete. In some cases, your travelling costs will exceed the Fozgo rental fee!
:shock: :rofl:
It's for the love of our great hobby (beers & wine included! :beer:) ... and it's not a rental fee, it's "lifetime lease" agreement... the only caveat is that it's hand-delivered to the leasee using it... it doesn't have to me but it can be...
Cheers! :beer:
Hello Pete.
I would be grateful for being able to participate in your generous offer. I even would treat the fee as a limited lifetime lease, in the event I for some reason wear out my welcome.
Before you say yes, three months ago I replaced my VPI HW-19 mkiii + Origin Live Silver mik2 with a Townshend Rock 7 with its motor replaced with an Origin Live DC-200 Advanced motor and transformer + Origin Live Illustrious mk2 tonearm and Clearaudio Titanium cartridge with its cantilever replaced with a ruby cantilever by Soundsmith.
After 3 months of frustration, I believe I finally got the Clearaudio on the Townshend to sound close to what I had with the VPI. I cannot say the one is better than the other. The VPI seems to have a larger soundstage with better dynamics, but the Townshend seems to have a more natural harmonic structure.
I cannot give any definite statement, since without the Foz, there is no way other than by ear to determine if azimuth is correct. Btw, the OL Illustrious has no adjustment for azimuth, so I use a skewed counterweight.
I am in central Queens and a member of Audio Syndrome. If you say yes, I will be limited lifetime grateful for your spiffy holiday offer (if I do not have to pay for the Foz and can trade away my off-the-cuff "two cents" plus the nominal sum instead, together with the required assortment of beer, wine and/or food - what am I getting into ?, I would be as happy as a dancing Snoopy, I think).
Regards.
Jason
-
Welcome mlee nice to see you here.
charles
SMA
-
With my setup, I used/ borrowed my buddies Fozgo on 2 separate occasions and I just confirmed that my azimuth was spot on. My VPI table came with great setup tools and a very lightweight thin rod I lay across the headshell and measure the distance to the record on both sides. Of course I can see where if your cartridge's cantilever or needle tip is slightly off, that this approach won't be perfect, but it's worked so far and the Fozzy has just given me piece of mind.
Jerome, see if you can borrow a Fozzy to see how well you did on your cartridge setup.
Rob S.
-
Welcome mlee nice to see you here.
charles
SMA
Greetings Charles.
Thanks for the welcome, and consider this my RSVP to the next meeting. Can't wait to hear the revised Rollo work-in-progress. Let me know if you prefer me to bring a dessert or wine.
Jason/
-
Can of worms here, Pete. In some cases, your travelling costs will exceed the Fozgo rental fee!
:shock: :rofl:
It's for the love of our great hobby (beers & wine included! :beer:) ... and it's not a rental fee, it's "lifetime lease" agreement... the only caveat is that it's hand-delivered to the leasee using it... it doesn't have to me but it can be...
Cheers! :beer:
Hello Pete.
I would be grateful for being able to participate in your generous offer. I even would treat the fee as a limited lifetime lease, in the event I for some reason wear out my welcome.
Before you say yes, three months ago I replaced my VPI HW-19 mkiii + Origin Live Silver mik2 with a Townshend Rock 7 with its motor replaced with an Origin Live DC-200 Advanced motor and transformer + Origin Live Illustrious mk2 tonearm and Clearaudio Titanium cartridge with its cantilever replaced with a ruby cantilever by Soundsmith.
After 3 months of frustration, I believe I finally got the Clearaudio on the Townshend to sound close to what I had with the VPI. I cannot say the one is better than the other. The VPI seems to have a larger soundstage with better dynamics, but the Townshend seems to have a more natural harmonic structure.
I cannot give any definite statement, since without the Foz, there is no way other than by ear to determine if azimuth is correct. Btw, the OL Illustrious has no adjustment for azimuth, so I use a skewed counterweight.
I am in central Queens and a member of Audio Syndrome. If you say yes, I will be limited lifetime grateful for your spiffy holiday offer (if I do not have to pay for the Foz and can trade away my off-the-cuff "two cents" plus the nominal sum instead, together with the required assortment of beer, wine and/or food - what am I getting into ?, I would be as happy as a dancing Snoopy, I think).
Regards.
Jason
Sure, Jason! Sounds like a plan... PM me with your availability. The skewed counterweight can be tricky since you need a really steady hand not to mess-up your VTF...
Cheers,
Pete