Author Topic: What's the general thought on separate bass systems?  (Read 18243 times)

miklorsmith

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What's the general thought on separate bass systems?
« on: January 25, 2007, 07:33:23 AM »
I've heard lots of different opinions on bass strategy.  Some say "bass is nondirectional, put 20 subwoofers in a closet upstairs and be done", others say stereo subs placed closer to the mains is a better approach.

With any sub/mains setup, there are blending issues.  Can they be made seamless?

The latter school might say having large floorstanders would accomplish the co-location principle best, but without some Vandersteen-type or complex EQ arrangement getting the tonal balance right in a given room might be difficult or impossible.

Then some folks say the low bass is less important and that the Purity of monitors is most important.  My opinion is this approach limits what music can be properly reproduced, but thats just IMO.

Views?

Offline Bemopti123

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What's the general thought on separate bass systems?
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2007, 08:47:59 AM »
To earnestly begin a discussion on this, let me say that music needs a foundation to begin with.  I mean body, and what low frequencies provide is that, body.  

My present set up, is a JE Labs OB, using a pair of old Altec 755Es with an infinity 1.2 subwoofer, somewhere in between the OBs.  

Blending in low frequencies, for what I have experienced is near impossible to be perfect.  There is always an issue with either,
bloated, pounding low frequency that has to do with subwoofers interacting with near walls, which most likely could be solved with pulling the offending device away from the collunding wall, but in terms of practicality and living sake, it is impossible.

I have a pair of SW-1 tower subwoofers that act as pedestals to my Gershman X-1 mini monitors on top.  The combo was placed about 20" away from the wall and I used to experience what I call, "bass slap."  With certain lower frequencies pounding at the walls.  

Back in the days, I used to either blame the amplifier driving it, saying that it did not have the stats to control the woofers.

Then, I realized it was a function of the subwoofers interacting with the walls.  There are devices out there that try to manipulate the low frequency output through either analogue methods or digital DSP.  

I can recall the Legacy Styrgian being an analogue type.  Then there is another company that makes a parametric equalizer type that used monitor loop outs to manipulate the bass signals that cost 2K.  

The most popular digital type of device that is sort of affordable seem to be the Behringer devices.  

I did not bother using ANY of these devices, because soon I wind up changing my system around back loaded horn speakers and also now, OBs with subwoofers.

in the process of getting where I am right now, I learned quite a few thing about bass and different types of speaker enclosures.

Horns are a dog to match a powered subwoofer with.  Due to its high efficiency, the subwoofer has a difficulty keeping up with the proper output, regardless how much I dial up the subwoofer.  

There seems to be different types of subwoofers that are able to keep up with the horns, but they are few and are mostly expensive.  REL and TBI seem to come to mind.

I do believe that Horn speakers with the appropriate subwoofer combination will give you the most bass neutral or realistic portrayal of music one can experience.

That comes from two experiences that I had with horn speakers.  

I heard a Brooks mahogany horn loaded with a 8" supravox EXC field coil driver paired with 15" alnico 1955 Klipsch horn bass horn sections.  These were very realistic in presentation, the basshorns simply adding the body and excitement whenever the source called for it.  Not more, no less, just enough.

Another horn system that I heard was Buddy's or AKA SET Mans horns, after he had properly broken in his Fostex 6" fullrange drivers with about 2-3 years worth of music playing.  

It must have been a Rave that took place about 1 year or so ago, that his horns were able to produce some decent low frequencies, without the help of subwoofers in general.  His bass, produced with high current 300B design amplifier, was astonishingly fast, not prodigious but very dynamic.  

Most other bass designs that I have heard in contrast to the two systems I have heard lack the finesse or the naturalness that I associate with live music.

Even my present system lacks a firm bottom end that blends in naturally.

OB speaker low end also presents its own challenges, due to the uncontrolled backwave, especially if there is a lack of space for the OB to breathe naturally.  That being said, still I have plenty of joy listening to my present system.  It has some of the foundation needed to make listening fun, it still lacks the major punch that can be had with a well set up subwoofer.

PS:  The best standard speaker subwoofer or low frequency set up that I have ever experienced was the low frequency of my Infinity Kappa 9s, circa 1989.  The four 12" plywoofers set up in an acoustic suspension cabinet.  The wave launch was amazing, but so were the requirements in wattage, amplification and room.

Bass for me is like a mercurial salt, it gives taste, but once you add a little past the normal, there is never a way of fixing it well.

miklorsmith

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What's the general thought on separate bass systems?
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2007, 09:10:51 AM »
Nice post!

WEEZ

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What's the general thought on separate bass systems?
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2007, 11:37:15 AM »
I don't think there's one right answer. (how's that for being a mushy middle-of-the-roader :) )

Assuming there's deep bass on the recording to begin with, reproducing it accurately in most listening rooms is difficult. The smaller the room, the more difficult it becomes.

I have chosen to live without the bottom octave, and most of the time, I don't miss it.

WEEZ

Offline Bemopti123

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What's the general thought on separate bass systems?
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2007, 11:40:45 AM »
More on bass, horns and perception....

The reason why I feel that horns with decent bass are the best have to the with idea of minimizing the interaction of the room with the bass.  

As the audiophile who pointed it to me, the one with the Supravox and Brooks Sierra horn set up, simply that horns and bass simply make the room disappear.  You can pull out or pull in the horn as much as you please, it does not matter.  As long as there is enough room to "mesh" the frequencies together, you will get the purest sound that you expect.  

That being said, the issue that I find with that idea is that we are theoretically stuck with whatever physical boundaries the room imposes on us in terms of area, therefore, I wounder if most horns are ever properly allow to breathe out.  Then, we could find a way of simulating room through DSPing, but to my audiophile core, I find simulations suck out the conceptual life of the sound, eventhough in reality the distortion might be more of a reaction than a reality.  

Mind you that I have been pulling backwards, minimizing signals and I do not believe that silicone chip connections and mathematical synthetized formulas in DSP actually ADD to the source.  On the contrary, I believe that they are just one more into the chain of things.  Call me a ludite?  But I think many people find it going backwards in technology more rewarding than the toying with the latests gizmos.  

More on these rumminations later.

Offline Bemopti123

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What's the general thought on separate bass systems?
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2007, 03:30:21 PM »
MLTL, as one of the best solutions for bass retrieval...

Then, about 2 years ago, I began reading about MLTL and also about the F200 Fostex Alnico driver.  The name Alnico, as well as the superlatives used by JLM in AudioCircle got me thinking.

In the end, I paid $25 for the FTA-2000 plans from Bob Brines.  Then, realizing that I did not have the know how, and had a pair of $700 drivers sitting pretty, because they were threatening to discontinue it then, I jumped the gun and got Bob to make me a pair of his trunk looking cabinets.

The zobel networks in place and the F200As placed, the FTAs took off.

Dang, bang.  The bass from an 8" driver was bloody amazing.  Agile, tactile, without EVER being bloated.  Dynamic was not the word for it, it was an awakening for me.

All being told, I believe that one of the best executions for bass tuning is MLTL, properly made and calculated.  

I still enjoy these speakers today, they are the mainstay of my livingroom system.

Offline Bemopti123

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What's the general thought on separate bass systems?
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2007, 03:42:30 PM »
Bass in terms of perception more than reality....

About three years ago, I caught the bug and bit into 47 Labs Shigaraki integrated review.  I got a deal, bought it and I had it running a pair of Epos ES11 monitors.  

That set up, really, really pushed the envelop of what I felt could be done about bass.

Some might question how low it really went.  According to specs, it did around 60Hz at most before disappearing rather fast...

but wait,

I compared it with my rear horn loaded Zhorn, with 8" Fostex 208 Sigma drivers.  According to Tom Zuworsky, he said that his horn made the driver produce around 45Hz of bass.

and

I compared the ES11 and the Zhorns.  

The winner was:  ES11.

60Hz sound better than 45Hz?

I think the ES11 had a bass hump somewhere in the band where it could be heard and although not the most optimal set up, the distortion sounded in one word, NICE.  PUNCHY.  LIVE.

or

could it have been that the Zhorn and the Fostex fullrange drive was not properly broken ?  It might have a more insulting midrange SHOUT, thus masking had good low frequency that it produce.  

but then, I exchanged some messages in AudioAsylum with the now late Terry Cain.  He said that the drivers were fine, but in order to really make any Fostex Sigma driver sing in a horn, you need...

Toobes.  

with a massive high current powercord.

So, I did this last year, with my Assemblage amplifier with 300B tubes.  

The Zhorn began to produce bass, more than I have heard previously, but I still believe that the drivers will truly need 300-600 hours of heavy music playing to really make them credible.  

and so it goes, bass might be a question of perception as well as audible distortion.  

In the end, what I believe it matters to the listener is how he/she perceive bass and how it interacts with the music.  

Another thing that really, really matters is the recording.

I have this amazing song, with a synth line, a ballad from a Korean pop artist called "The Natural."  This one song, the beginning produced an impressive bass line on the Zhorns without any subwoofer help.  

The same track reproduced in a MLTL system or other, it might just sound pedestrian, but with the right speaker, that you might otherwise perceive it as bass anemic, it can sound downright SPECTACULAR.

So, there are many variables in the bass game.  But biggest problem is getting a system that is good for all source songs, all types of amplification and also be fairly efficient.  I have yet to find something that meets all these criteria.  

Maybe some other people have better experiences than I do.

Peace!

miklorsmith

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What's the general thought on separate bass systems?
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2007, 04:05:31 PM »
By bass setup is a TacT 2.2XP > Crown K2 (500 wpc) > Zu Def. Pro bass array (8 - 10" Eminence Pro drivers).  The bass array is rated at 96 db efficient, and I've tried it with a number of "audiophile" amps.  None were great.  Going to the Crown was stupendous and got me off the merry go round.

The bass array is sealed, as are the mains.  The TacT performs room correction then allows tweaking of the curves.  I don't know for sure yet if I'll be able to settle on the One Magic Curve that is just right for all music.  I can program multiple curves that can be switched on the fly for a varied palate.

This setup isn't cheap, especially since the TacT DACs suck.  But, it is a stupendous solution.  It will deliver home theater thunder and also a well recorded stand-up bass exceptionally.  Blending the mains and subs was a bit of work but most of the work was trying to get the subs to do as much as possible without overpowering the mains.  The end result is that it is very difficult to hear the handoff.  Running shallow-order slopes really helps the blending illusion

Imperial

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What's the general thought on separate bass systems?
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2007, 12:34:37 PM »
I want the subwoofers to be infront of the main speakers.
Thats my rule of thumb.

Imperial

Offline Inscrutable

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What's the general thought on separate bass systems?
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2007, 03:12:20 AM »
I was going to post, but after Bemopti123's posts, I feel like Opus staring down into my drawers.  Going to have to recompose myself.  :wink:

Offline Carlman

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What's the general thought on separate bass systems?
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2007, 06:38:54 AM »
I know many people (who's ears I trust) that swear by stereo subs.  I'm in a tiny room currently and don't really need any more bass.  When I move I'll try dual subs... because the room will be 16 x 22 instead of 11 x 13. ;)
I really enjoy listening to music.

Offline Inscrutable

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What's the general thought on separate bass systems?
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2007, 04:47:01 PM »
I am running full-range (flat to 23Hz) mains wihtout a sub. I've never been terribly happy with the integration of subs and mains. The best integration I've heard is with an  IB and what would/could be full range speakers with a crossover set up around 60Hz, using a Velodyne SMS-1,  not sure what the slopes used were.  Virtually seamless and natural.

I'm going to do an IB upstairs so I may try that.

Ethnos

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Re: Subs
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2007, 05:44:00 PM »
My experience with subs is limited to the Muse Model 18.

It looks like a small cubic end-table in a fine finish with a black laminate top, 25" x 25" x 25". Inside are 2 10" long-throw woofers and an internal 225 watt amplifier. My particular example has 2 balanced inputs and 2 balanced outputs. The size and shape lends suitability in a normal living room...i.e. high wife-acceptance-factor.

Although this sub came with a "personality card" for use with my Soundlab A-1's (now at the bottom of a San Diego landfill), I removed it to use the sub with my Dunlavy SC-IVa's (sold last month).  Different cards match the sub to different high-end speakers, but it can be used without a card with any speaker to satisfyingly extend the bottom end.

I found the bass to be tight, visceral, non-boomy, extended (it's supposed to be flat down to 18 Hz) and seemless with the Dunlavys (which really don't need a sub anyway).

Although the Muse did not seem to be position-dependent, I didn't keep it near a wall, but favored using it as an end-table or a stand for sculpture.

Mine is balanced. It has been sitting around idle, holding an ancient African mask. There is a non-balanced example for sale on A'gon. For only about $1,000-$1,500, you can't go wrong.

miklorsmith

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What's the general thought on separate bass systems?
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2007, 07:27:21 AM »
Hey, nice first post!

Personality card, eh?  Never heard of such a thing.  It seems smart.  Does it come with the normal bevy of manual controls as well?

Blue

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Re: What's the general thought on separate bass systems?
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2007, 02:31:55 AM »
Then some folks say the low bass is less important and that the Purity of monitors is most important.  My opinion is this approach limits what music can be properly reproduced, but thats just IMO.

If asked this question two years ago, I was firmly in the "no sub with music reproduction camp." I've been a music lover (blues and jazz are staples in my musical diet) and electronics junkie for well over 40 years and been fortunate to have some very nice gear. For decades I ran Magneplanar MG1's driven by a Counterpoint SA-100 tube/mosfet hybrid amp in the main 2CH setup and was a happy camper. The amp's power transformer gave up the ghost after nearly two decades of daily use. That event sent me on a wonderful journey of discovery.

I decided to have the amp repaired/upgraded by Mike at Alta Vista Audio in CA. While it was being reworked, I acquired a vintage PS Audio Delta power amp which proved too much for my aging MG1's. The HF sections of the Maggies became detached in spots from the mylar planar surface. I later rebuilt them myself, but that's another tale. A friend sold me a pair of vintage Polk SDA 2B's--the first floor standing, box speakers I'd had in over three decades. I enjoyed the sound, but could definitely hear some enclosure coloration compared to the planar speakers.

Over the course of the next two years, I tried various other vintage Polk models including SDA SRS, Monitor 11's, RTA-8Ts and RTA-12C's together with tube and SS amplification. While running the RTA-12Cs with a Manley 75+75 tube amp I acquired a used Polk PSW-650 sub I had planned to incorporate in an HT setup. For grins I placed it in the mix with the 12C's and was instantly floored by the synergy created by a better LF foundation. I found myself simply lost in the music for hours on end.

During this same period, I had been experimenting with various forms of amplification for my Cain & Cain Abbey based system (yes, I'm a junkie--I have three 2CH setups.) I built a pair of Transcendent Sound SEOTL amps as monoblocks, and rebuilt a vintage Dynaco ST-70. Both had their pros and cons driving the single driver enclosures. I acquired a Teac A-L700P "chip" amp intending to use it in a bedroom HT setup and tried it with a tube preamp and the single driver enclosures. Magical! Okay, what does this long-winded tale have to do with the thread?

I was discussing my audio journeys with the friend (he's an audio dealer in MA) who sold me the Polk SDA's last summer. I explained that I wished I could meld the two system concepts (point source imaging of a single driver, time alignment of the RTA's, purity of the power switching amp, and seamless bass integration of a musical sub) in one system, plus take things "up a notch". I decided to try the PS audio gain cell gear for amplification and my friend put me onto a used package including Revel Ultima Gems, Sub-15, and LE-1 bass amp/crossover for a very right price. The rest is history and, YES, a subwoofer can be seamlessly integrated into an outstandingly musical system! I believe my audio journeys (at least with gear in the main system) are over for the forseeable future.